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Post by busman on Mar 18, 2017 12:14:56 GMT
More meaningless nonsense. Why will a few stickers on the side of a bus make people uses buses that are slower than walking pace or hopelessly unreliable? Fix the fundamentals not tinker with fripperies. Why not do both? Speed, reliability and route awareness all have a part to play in increasing ridership. Branding doesn't seek to address bus speeds or reliability. Branding increases public awareness of local routes. Something that bus priority measures and PVR increases can never achieve. Not everyone is a bus nut like us lot here on this forum. Many people have no idea where local routes go and resort to Uber instead. You can have a reliable fast frequent bus route, but if people don't know about it, it won't be utilised to its full potential.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 18, 2017 12:46:17 GMT
More meaningless nonsense. Why will a few stickers on the side of a bus make people uses buses that are slower than walking pace or hopelessly unreliable? Fix the fundamentals not tinker with fripperies. Why not do both? Speed, reliability and route awareness all have a part to play in increasing ridership. Branding doesn't seek to address bus speeds or reliability. Branding increases public awareness of local routes. Something that bus priority measures and PVR increases can never achieve. Not everyone is a bus nut like us lot here on this forum. Many people have no idea where local routes go and resort to Uber instead. You can have a reliable fast frequent bus route, but if people don't know about it, it won't be utilised to its full potential. Several reasons about not doing both. 1. Companies that do route branding well tend to have special route management arrangements including route managers that passengers can contact directly. The additional focus tends to ensure branded routes run properly. I doubt TfL or London operators will do this meaning the concept is unlikely to work. 2. TfL are in the mode of cutting and not improving services. It's a hard marketing sell to push people on to services that are getting worse. 3. I am not convinced that TfL are doing anything of any great substance to deal with delays and congestion. That is the major problem. People don't want a long wait nor do they want a slow journey. Why market something that is rubbish and not getting better? 4. I actually think getting info into people's hands or their homes is more effective that stickers on the side of buses. TfL could, if they were bothered, provide modern day versions of "Local Bus Guides" that were downloadable to help people learn their local networks and how to reach local attractions. There's enormous scope to make such documents "intelligent" with hyperlinks to other info, journey planner, websites for shops and attractions etc. No sign of this happening. The restructured Orpington network is an ideal opportuntity to trial something like this. Bet they won't bother. 5. London has a pretty poor record over many attempts at route branding. It's rarely been consistently applied or managed. It's not been refreshed regularly to keep the "brand" or "route" in people's minds and keep things attractive. Branding strikes me as one of those things TfL and LT do when they can't afford or are enable to do something of substance. It's one of those "last resort" tactics when all else fails. 6. All the recent "innovations" being trialled by TfL seem to have died the death - free seat displays, E-ink bus stop displays, Countdown info via shelter advert panels, wifi on buses, more informative I-Bus displays inside buses. Ok the latter turned up on the SEes but not elsewhere and there have been hundreds of buses delivered in recent weeks. TfL seems unable to manage the provision of common sense innovations either because they are too expensive or they can't find a business case or way of measuring benefits. So sorry I just don't think TfL will or are capable of doing route branding properly. It's what you do if you are "commercial" and understand your market. TfL are not commercial in the way deregulated bus operators have to be nor do they understand the market. They understand data but it's not the same thing given they are dismissive of feedback from customers who bother to tell them what's going on. Good commercial businesses listen to their customers. TfL does not despite years of trying to indoctrinate their staff about being like Apple or John Lewis (I sat through the early sessions of this before I left LU).
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 18, 2017 15:16:59 GMT
Don't think some companies will be too happy about branding. I know it's 70% but some operators are very flexible with allocations. I am sure I read somewhere that was a reason Stagecoach wasn't too interested in biding for the ELT routes before they converted to LT. Sounds like that spin has been mixed up well in one of the garage canteens.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 18, 2017 15:30:45 GMT
Shame the 159's LT's won't receive that lovely livery, remember it well on the RM's back when I was younger - interestingly, all 3 of Abellio's LT routes serve Parliament Square so I'd assume that the Houses of Parliament might be a possible landmark. That'd bring back memories of the old London Northern subsidiary, which used an outline of the Houses of Parliament as their logo. Always thought that was an odd choice given that they were in the process of losing the 24, which was their only daytime route that passed through Westminster! I always thought it was odd. I thought the logos were meant to be something representative of the operating area. Houses of Parliament not in North London, so found that logo strange. Also South London with Tower Bridge. But I guess maybe its down to a route that goes within the area.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 18, 2017 16:02:35 GMT
Why not do both? Speed, reliability and route awareness all have a part to play in increasing ridership. Branding doesn't seek to address bus speeds or reliability. Branding increases public awareness of local routes. Something that bus priority measures and PVR increases can never achieve. Not everyone is a bus nut like us lot here on this forum. Many people have no idea where local routes go and resort to Uber instead. You can have a reliable fast frequent bus route, but if people don't know about it, it won't be utilised to its full potential. Several reasons about not doing both. 1. Companies that do route branding well tend to have special route management arrangements including route managers that passengers can contact directly. The additional focus tends to ensure branded routes run properly. I doubt TfL or London operators will do this meaning the concept is unlikely to work. 2. TfL are in the mode of cutting and not improving services. It's a hard marketing sell to push people on to services that are getting worse. 3. I am not convinced that TfL are doing anything of any great substance to deal with delays and congestion. That is the major problem. People don't want a long wait nor do they want a slow journey. Why market something that is rubbish and not getting better? 4. I actually think getting info into people's hands or their homes is more effective that stickers on the side of buses. TfL could, if they were bothered, provide modern day versions of "Local Bus Guides" that were downloadable to help people learn their local networks and how to reach local attractions. There's enormous scope to make such documents "intelligent" with hyperlinks to other info, journey planner, websites for shops and attractions etc. No sign of this happening. The restructured Orpington network is an ideal opportuntity to trial something like this. Bet they won't bother. 5. London has a pretty poor record over many attempts at route branding. It's rarely been consistently applied or managed. It's not been refreshed regularly to keep the "brand" or "route" in people's minds and keep things attractive. Branding strikes me as one of those things TfL and LT do when they can't afford or are enable to do something of substance. It's one of those "last resort" tactics when all else fails. 6. All the recent "innovations" being trialled by TfL seem to have died the death - free seat displays, E-ink bus stop displays, Countdown info via shelter advert panels, wifi on buses, more informative I-Bus displays inside buses. Ok the latter turned up on the SEes but not elsewhere and there have been hundreds of buses delivered in recent weeks. TfL seems unable to manage the provision of common sense innovations either because they are too expensive or they can't find a business case or way of measuring benefits. So sorry I just don't think TfL will or are capable of doing route branding properly. It's what you do if you are "commercial" and understand your market. TfL are not commercial in the way deregulated bus operators have to be nor do they understand the market. They understand data but it's not the same thing given they are dismissive of feedback from customers who bother to tell them what's going on. Good commercial businesses listen to their customers. TfL does not despite years of trying to indoctrinate their staff about being like Apple or John Lewis (I sat through the early sessions of this before I left LU). I fully agree with you on that last bit. They are very well trying to give out the Sainsburys or Tesco customer service. But they themselves do not listen. One recent one that angered me was to curtail the 78 to Liverpool St to fit in a common stop with the 42 when they curtail it into the bus station. But then punish the many people that use the route between Shoreditch and Bermondsey. Thererecent excuse now is the hopper ticket saviour.
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Post by ServerKing on Mar 18, 2017 17:15:32 GMT
Re-number all the routes as there are gaps in the sequence, i.e 82, 239, 310, 311, 374 etc... then after extending the 349 to Havkney so it makes more sense, then allow operators to do branding... Go North East were always colourful, but bus wrapping could be good for temporary branding... definitely Wifi if not better seats And yet Go North East has been reducing the number of branded routes for well over a year. The need for frequent route changes to deal with commercial demands and to ensure reliability has meant it was becoming pointless using route branding as the routes were forever changing rendering liveries out of date. Those routes that remain branded have tended to see livery simplication - presumably to reduce repair costs. The scale of fleet renewal has also slowed somewhat. I expect all of this is because it is becoming much harder for operators to deal with traffic congestion which is now at chronic levels in the North East and that is affecting the attractiveness of their services and the money they are earning. Sound familiar? Leon Daniels causing trouble with cycle lanes up there as well? As colourful as it was, the Go North East buses verged on the comical with buses all colours of the rainbow... had it been more discreet like Reading Buses and had for instance an Orange Route' series which could include 4 or 5 different routes, the branding would not be so bad. I believe Nexus (who are embarking on a TfL style tender scheme) will reign things in a bit. Also, increased car use has taken the need to sit on an aging ex-Enfield DLA for long periods of time away from those in the NorthEast. Buses Mag said that ridership has taken a hit across the country as more have a car and go to out-of-town shopping areas, councils price people out of town centres with crazy parking schemes (in effect killing the High Street), and people shop on-line and prefer to sit in the comfort of their own car. Also Uber has cut into the bus market as well. Because Daniels made everything all over red, he killed Buses' mojo back in 2005, and aside from vinyls it's hard to tell who from who - even worse in the case of Sullivan Buses who don't even have a logo but just the Buses roundel and fleet number I'd yearn for the days of the Stagecoach swirls or Metroline's blue skirts but I think any branding done will be half-arsed and on the cheap
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Post by snoggle on Mar 18, 2017 19:12:22 GMT
Leon Daniels causing trouble with cycle lanes up there as well? As colourful as it was, the Go North East buses verged on the comical with buses all colours of the rainbow... had it been more discreet like Reading Buses and had for instance an Orange Route' series which could include 4 or 5 different routes, the branding would not be so bad. I believe Nexus (who are embarking on a TfL style tender scheme) will reign things in a bit. Also, increased car use has taken the need to sit on an aging ex-Enfield DLA for long periods of time away from those in the NorthEast. Buses Mag said that ridership has taken a hit across the country as more have a car and go to out-of-town shopping areas, councils price people out of town centres with crazy parking schemes (in effect killing the High Street), and people shop on-line and prefer to sit in the comfort of their own car. Also Uber has cut into the bus market as well. Because Daniels made everything all over red, he killed Buses' mojo back in 2005, and aside from vinyls it's hard to tell who from who - even worse in the case of Sullivan Buses who don't even have a logo but just the Buses roundel and fleet number I'd yearn for the days of the Stagecoach swirls or Metroline's blue skirts but I think any branding done will be half-arsed and on the cheap I don't think Mr D has any influence in the North East. If things are going wrong it is simply the result of 30 years of decline since deregulation. Nexus have given up on their tendered network proposal because it was thrown out by the independent commissioner. There are no doubt structural changes elsewhere as there in London but the progressive erosion and rationalisation of the network in the North East has left a fair proportion of people without buses at all and certainly not a convenient service if you need to travel early in the morning, in the evening or at weekends (Saturdays are now seeing decline as Sundays have long seen). Nexus no longer has the funding to do anything of any great substance. It is regularly having to cut funding on supported services. I know you are fond of blaming Mr Daniels for just about everything but I'm not convinced there is evidence to say he is directly responsible for all over red liveries.
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 18, 2017 19:26:16 GMT
I think party the reason for lack or logos/liveries in london is due to the fact that TFL have overall control of the network with fares, freqs etc being set by TFL. There is no real need for passengers to know who the operator is.
Branding I think will be a nice idea but not sure how easily it will work as so many garages pool a large fleet of buses across several routes. It would be near impossible to brand buses for the 44 as they are shared with the 270 and 280 aswell now as the 57 with them likely to be pooled with the 131 soon aswell.
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Post by ServerKing on Mar 18, 2017 19:35:10 GMT
Leon Daniels causing trouble with cycle lanes up there as well? As colourful as it was, the Go North East buses verged on the comical with buses all colours of the rainbow... had it been more discreet like Reading Buses and had for instance an Orange Route' series which could include 4 or 5 different routes, the branding would not be so bad. I believe Nexus (who are embarking on a TfL style tender scheme) will reign things in a bit. Also, increased car use has taken the need to sit on an aging ex-Enfield DLA for long periods of time away from those in the NorthEast. Buses Mag said that ridership has taken a hit across the country as more have a car and go to out-of-town shopping areas, councils price people out of town centres with crazy parking schemes (in effect killing the High Street), and people shop on-line and prefer to sit in the comfort of their own car. Also Uber has cut into the bus market as well. Because Daniels made everything all over red, he killed Buses' mojo back in 2005, and aside from vinyls it's hard to tell who from who - even worse in the case of Sullivan Buses who don't even have a logo but just the Buses roundel and fleet number I'd yearn for the days of the Stagecoach swirls or Metroline's blue skirts but I think any branding done will be half-arsed and on the cheap I don't think Mr D has any influence in the North East. If things are going wrong it is simply the result of 30 years of decline since deregulation. Nexus have given up on their tendered network proposal because it was thrown out by the independent commissioner. There are no doubt structural changes elsewhere as there in London but the progressive erosion and rationalisation of the network in the North East has left a fair proportion of people without buses at all and certainly not a convenient service if you need to travel early in the morning, in the evening or at weekends (Saturdays are now seeing decline as Sundays have long seen). Nexus no longer has the funding to do anything of any great substance. It is regularly having to cut funding on supported services. I know you are fond of blaming Mr Daniels for just about everything but I'm not convinced there is evidence to say he is directly responsible for all over red liveries. I was a little facetious... I think he's done some good, even the thought of branding is nice... I don't blame him for everything (but the blinds ball is in his court) and it just seemed ironic that all city planners seem to be making life hard for drivers in general. I did like the Bristol hybrid single decker he was planning in an an early edition of The Londoner but sadly that was all it was... just an idea Whoever the individual is it's a shame that now everything is so dull. But on the plus side, lets see if the branding thing is for real, we are not far from April 1st so someone could be pulling our leg... but if so, it will have to be professionally done and appeal on key routes. I liked the 38s branding back in the day with the heart between the 3 and the 8
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Post by sid on Mar 18, 2017 19:45:33 GMT
I think party the reason for lack or logos/liveries in london is due to the fact that TFL have overall control of the network with fares, freqs etc being set by TFL. There is no real need for passengers to know who the operator is. Branding I think will be a nice idea but not sure how easily it will work as so many garages pool a large fleet of buses across several routes. It would be near impossible to brand buses for the 44 as they are shared with the 270 and 280 aswell now as the 57 with them likely to be pooled with the 131 soon aswell. I agree that there is no need for passengers to know who the operator is, just like on National Express coaches. Route branding is obviously different as it gives useful information to passengers and indeed potential passengers. It must relatively cheap to apply and can only be a good thing?
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Post by ServerKing on Mar 18, 2017 20:01:01 GMT
I think party the reason for lack or logos/liveries in london is due to the fact that TFL have overall control of the network with fares, freqs etc being set by TFL. There is no real need for passengers to know who the operator is. Branding I think will be a nice idea but not sure how easily it will work as so many garages pool a large fleet of buses across several routes. It would be near impossible to brand buses for the 44 as they are shared with the 270 and 280 aswell now as the 57 with them likely to be pooled with the 131 soon aswell. I agree that there is no need for passengers to know who the operator is, just like on National Express coaches. Route branding is obviously different as it gives useful information to passengers and indeed potential passengers. It must relatively cheap to apply and can only be a good thing? ... and seeing as we cannot get that information from the stupid blinds I think it will help - though it will keep certain buses to some routes with little or no intermixing which could hamper most operators out there if you get a few breakdowns... Though if TfL are as rigourous as they are in checking blind presentation they will have nothing to fear if branded buses are out on different routes
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Post by sid on Mar 18, 2017 20:09:48 GMT
I agree that there is no need for passengers to know who the operator is, just like on National Express coaches. Route branding is obviously different as it gives useful information to passengers and indeed potential passengers. It must relatively cheap to apply and can only be a good thing? ... and seeing as we cannot get that information from the stupid blinds I think it will help - though it will keep certain buses to some routes with little or no intermixing which could hamper most operators out there if you get a few breakdowns... Though if TfL are as rigourous as they are in checking blind presentation they will have nothing to fear if branded buses are out on different routes Some buses are pretty much restricted to one route anyway, most of the LTs, the Citaro's on both the 227 and 358 for example. In some cases the branding could apply to more than one route, the 28,31 and 328 for example.
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Post by planesandtrains on Mar 18, 2017 22:13:24 GMT
... and seeing as we cannot get that information from the stupid blinds I think it will help - though it will keep certain buses to some routes with little or no intermixing which could hamper most operators out there if you get a few breakdowns... Though if TfL are as rigourous as they are in checking blind presentation they will have nothing to fear if branded buses are out on different routes Some buses are pretty much restricted to one route anyway, most of the LTs, the Citaro's on both the 227 and 358 for example. In some cases the branding could apply to more than one route, the 28,31 and 328 for example. Well, 12m buses would fit round most routes, it's just that TFL are so stubborn and re-tender routes with 10.8m buses.
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Post by ServerKing on Mar 19, 2017 1:13:54 GMT
Why not do both? Speed, reliability and route awareness all have a part to play in increasing ridership. Branding doesn't seek to address bus speeds or reliability. Branding increases public awareness of local routes. Something that bus priority measures and PVR increases can never achieve. Not everyone is a bus nut like us lot here on this forum. Many people have no idea where local routes go and resort to Uber instead. You can have a reliable fast frequent bus route, but if people don't know about it, it won't be utilised to its full potential. Several reasons about not doing both. 2. TfL are in the mode of cutting and not improving services. It's a hard marketing sell to push people on to services that are getting worse. 3. I am not convinced that TfL are doing anything of any great substance to deal with delays and congestion. That is the major problem. People don't want a long wait nor do they want a slow journey. Why market something that is rubbish and not getting better? 5. London has a pretty poor record over many attempts at route branding. It's rarely been consistently applied or managed. It's not been refreshed regularly to keep the "brand" or "route" in people's minds and keep things attractive. Branding strikes me as one of those things TfL and LT do when they can't afford or are enable to do something of substance. It's one of those "last resort" tactics when all else fails. 6. All the recent "innovations" being trialled by TfL seem to have died the death - free seat displays, E-ink bus stop displays, Countdown info via shelter advert panels, wifi on buses, more informative I-Bus displays inside buses. Ok the latter turned up on the SEes but not elsewhere and there have been hundreds of buses delivered in recent weeks. TfL seems unable to manage the provision of common sense innovations either because they are too expensive or they can't find a business case or way of measuring benefits. So sorry I just don't think TfL will or are capable of doing route branding properly. It's what you do if you are "commercial" and understand your market. TfL are not commercial in the way deregulated bus operators have to be nor do they understand the market. They understand data but it's not the same thing given they are dismissive of feedback from customers who bother to tell them what's going on. Good commercial businesses listen to their customers. TfL does not despite years of trying to indoctrinate their staff about being like Apple or John Lewis (I sat through the early sessions of this before I left LU). Point #2: Southern Rail's and Greater Anglia's Marketing department seems to manage in that regard Everything you have said is so correct! I can see something as bad as my photos appearing, but come any repaint, the branding will disappear anyway... Government bodies have no idea how private sector firms budget or use branding as marketing to promote their product and increase sales. Some councils try to fight off outsourced business or try to foolishly compete with them acting as if they are a private sector business and get it woefully wrong. I would have liked to see the seat availability thing on the buses, or even the move away from Tyvek roller blinds which are costly and dated. The boards in the SEe buses could be retro fitted to the rest of the fleet but you will find because they peed money up the walls elsewhere *cycle lanes - cough* the cupboard is bare. Hence Khan's bogus Diesel Tax kicking in on 23rd October to claw money back. Night Tube had no proper marketing and the only recent publicity I have seen is bad, with the case in court about trains keeping people awake at night I would have thought "The Bus Driver's Son" would honour his dad's profession and help buses out more TfL should just regulate fares but give operators back 80% red which allowed for variety... I worked for TfL and saw the sheer waste in their IT department, for instance the one time I was sent to Amersham on the train to deliver a mouse and keyboard which could have gone in the internal post or on a courier bike... someone lost the charger for their laptop so we sent them a new HP laptop (comes with a charger)... like most government bodies they are out of touch with reality, so I can see the New Johnston font plastered garishly across an aging VLA on the 142 advertising the route to Brent Cross fairly soon. As for feedback, as has been seen with the 13 / 82 debacle they will just tell us what they are doing and to hell with our opinions. Red Ken brought in this kind of thinking and now TfL's as unpredictable as Trump and as stubborn as Nicola Sturgeon
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Post by vjaska on Mar 19, 2017 10:46:06 GMT
ServerKing I wouldn't like to see those I-Bus displays from the SEe's being used - whilst they are more informative, they are very hard to see from the rear and I've got good eyesight so not everybody gets the benefit of that. I hope the bus seat concept & the Kindle blind are trialled again - as with anything on a first trial, technology learns from its mistakes so I'd suspect both concepts would perform better next time.
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