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Post by ibus246 on Apr 25, 2017 22:03:02 GMT
Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. Business is already booming unless I'm missing something? One would assume he meant "boom further" and quite right too.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 25, 2017 22:21:56 GMT
They may become a little less keen if as a result of fewer or no buses, the retailers lose customers. There are plenty of other places to shop that people might think are easier to get to. Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. I think there will be an initial surge of interest but then I think trading levels will fall back from a peak. Overall trade might be a bit higher than now but not hugely so. I do not think there will be a sustained ongoing "boom" whereby Oxford St somehow defeats the competitive attraction of Westfield Stratford, Westfield London and the eventual Westfield Croydon. Crossrail and Thameslink may well be able to get people into Central London but equally they will make it simple to whizz *across* London to other suburban centres that may well be more attractive and cheaper than Oxford St. We need to remember that for all the expectation being heaped on Crossrail as some sort of saviour for Oxford St it is also supposed to be immensely busy which may be a turn off for people who don't want to stand with their shopping for 20-30 minutes. Also the full through service takes a year to build up which may also be some deterrent in the short term as interchange will be lengthy at Liv St and Paddington in the interim phases. I would also say that pedestrianising Oxford St won't remove all the pollution in Central London. It won't make the street impervious to wind or rain nor will it make it warm in winter or air conditioned in Summer. It all depends what people want - some people are quite content to spend a day trudging round Oxford St now while others would rather trudge around inside a Westfield or similar. Personally I like my shopping to take as short a period as possible but I'm not the average shopper!!! The retail offer on Oxford St isn't all that wonderful to be honest. Yes there are some large flagship stores but that makes them popular and crowded. A fair proportion of the retail offer is poor and shoddy or it's very exclusive and off limits to many other than gazing through the window. It will be interesting to see how the mix changes - it's had a fair turnover over the last 20 years but I suspect rising land prices and Crossrail related speculation will change things further and possibly not in the most attractive way. We also have to see what happens to Tottenham Ct Rd and Soho - they're potential competitors to parts of Oxford St given the likely larger draw of TCR station than Bond St. The retailers may think they can't lose from pedestrianising Oxford St but I'm not at all sure. Retail is under huge pressure from technological change, the economy and changing preferences. Acres of paving slabs may not be enough to guarantee ongoing success. We shall see.
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Post by redbus on Apr 25, 2017 22:47:45 GMT
Business is already booming unless I'm missing something? One would assume he meant I "boom further" and quite right too. I think business will boom further, how much I won't try and predict nor how much is would be due to pedestrianisation as opposed to other factors. The point I was trying to make is that there may be a desire for specific streets to be vehicle free such as Oxford Street, but the businesses (retailers) still want some buses coming into the West End as they bring in potential customers.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 25, 2017 23:09:13 GMT
Business is already booming unless I'm missing something? One would assume he meant "boom further" and quite right too. Ah that would make sense, thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by sid on Apr 26, 2017 13:57:51 GMT
Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. I think there will be an initial surge of interest but then I think trading levels will fall back from a peak. Overall trade might be a bit higher than now but not hugely so. I do not think there will be a sustained ongoing "boom" whereby Oxford St somehow defeats the competitive attraction of Westfield Stratford, Westfield London and the eventual Westfield Croydon. Crossrail and Thameslink may well be able to get people into Central London but equally they will make it simple to whizz *across* London to other suburban centres that may well be more attractive and cheaper than Oxford St. We need to remember that for all the expectation being heaped on Crossrail as some sort of saviour for Oxford St it is also supposed to be immensely busy which may be a turn off for people who don't want to stand with their shopping for 20-30 minutes. Also the full through service takes a year to build up which may also be some deterrent in the short term as interchange will be lengthy at Liv St and Paddington in the interim phases. I would also say that pedestrianising Oxford St won't remove all the pollution in Central London. It won't make the street impervious to wind or rain nor will it make it warm in winter or air conditioned in Summer. It all depends what people want - some people are quite content to spend a day trudging round Oxford St now while others would rather trudge around inside a Westfield or similar. Personally I like my shopping to take as short a period as possible but I'm not the average shopper!!! The retail offer on Oxford St isn't all that wonderful to be honest. Yes there are some large flagship stores but that makes them popular and crowded. A fair proportion of the retail offer is poor and shoddy or it's very exclusive and off limits to many other than gazing through the window. It will be interesting to see how the mix changes - it's had a fair turnover over the last 20 years but I suspect rising land prices and Crossrail related speculation will change things further and possibly not in the most attractive way. We also have to see what happens to Tottenham Ct Rd and Soho - they're potential competitors to parts of Oxford St given the likely larger draw of TCR station than Bond St. The retailers may think they can't lose from pedestrianising Oxford St but I'm not at all sure. Retail is under huge pressure from technological change, the economy and changing preferences. Acres of paving slabs may not be enough to guarantee ongoing success. We shall see. Time will tell but I would certainly expect a lot more visitors to Oxford Street, indeed they are probably having to up their game a bit because of the competition from Westfield. Oxford Street was a far more pleasant place when it was closed recently for roadworks and once Crossrail opens there will be no more having to rely on the overcrowded Central Line to get home. Inevitably a few people will be inconvenienced but there are far more pro's than cons.
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 26, 2017 18:11:58 GMT
Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. I would also say that pedestrianising Oxford St won't remove all the pollution in Central London. It won't make the street impervious to wind or rain nor will it make it warm in winter or air conditioned in Summer. It all depends what people want - some people are quite content to spend a day trudging round Oxford St now while others would rather trudge around inside a Westfield or similar. Personally I like my shopping to take as short a period as possible but I'm not the average shopper!!! The retail offer on Oxford St isn't all that wonderful to be honest. Yes there are some large flagship stores but that makes them popular and crowded. Oxford Street will always have the attraction of tourists doing a bit of shopping but the weather is a major disadvantage for it even more so if it does become pedestrianised. The enclosed Westfield-esque shopping centre is now the choice for regular shopping experience, whereas Oxford Street is maybe a 'once in a while' thing. Having said that, I have just worked out that I have never bought an item from Oxford Street. I also have not bought anything from Stratford Westfield or online for that matter. If your a below average shopper, what the hell am I? Before people think I live naked in Epping Forest, I am a more local, get in get out shopper, probably twice a year. Cant stand any crowds or queues.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2017 19:29:19 GMT
Oxford Street will always have the attraction of tourists doing a bit of shopping but the weather is a major disadvantage for it even more so if it does become pedestrianised. The enclosed Westfield-esque shopping centre is now the choice for regular shopping experience, whereas Oxford Street is maybe a 'once in a while' thing. Having said that, I have just worked out that I have never bought an item from Oxford Street. I also have not bought anything from Stratford Westfield or online for that matter. If your a below average shopper, what the hell am I? Before people think I live naked in Epping Forest, I am a more local, get in get out shopper, probably twice a year. Cant stand any crowds or queues. In the "old days" I used to shop quite regularly on Oxford St - M&S Pantheon and HMV opposite were regular haunts. I love browsing round big record stores but they have now died the death because of downloads and Amazon / I Tunes. I've never downloaded a tune in my life as I like to own "physical" music which is mine not a file which some one else can exercise control over. There is also something nice and tactile about putting a record on a turntable or even handling a CD. That just reflects my age I guess. I've also shopped in Selfridges and John Lewis but that's about it. I once ventured inside the huge Primark at Marble Arch - the living embodiment of hell on earth. Never again. My use of Oxford St has declined because WCC were forever working on it making it hellish to use. Furthermore the shops I liked to frequent have closed or are less attractive to use. There is also the sheer schlep into the centre which I now very rarely do as there's no reason for me to be there. I actually have to go in tomorrow which will be the first time in months. I might even catch a bus in Zone 1. I have bought stuff at Westfield Stratford - usually at M&S as that's a quick dash in and out. The rest of the place drives me nuts because they deliberately design the places to disorientate you so you spend more time wandering about. That's why they are always curved - you can't see the end or any exits easily - and why there is minimal daylight. Once you understand the psychological tricks they play on you it's enough to make you hate the places forever. It's a worldwide trick - you get the same in the big Plazas in the Far East. Anyway enough of my ramblings about shopping.
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 27, 2017 5:30:26 GMT
Oxford Street will always have the attraction of tourists doing a bit of shopping but the weather is a major disadvantage for it even more so if it does become pedestrianised. The enclosed Westfield-esque shopping centre is now the choice for regular shopping experience, whereas Oxford Street is maybe a 'once in a while' thing. Having said that, I have just worked out that I have never bought an item from Oxford Street. I also have not bought anything from Stratford Westfield or online for that matter. If your a below average shopper, what the hell am I? Before people think I live naked in Epping Forest, I am a more local, get in get out shopper, probably twice a year. Cant stand any crowds or queues. I have bought stuff at Westfield Stratford - usually at M&S as that's a quick dash in and out. The rest of the place drives me nuts because they deliberately design the places to disorientate you so you spend more time wandering about. That's why they are always curved - you can't see the end or any exits easily - and why there is minimal daylight. Once you understand the psychological tricks they play on you it's enough to make you hate the places forever. It's a worldwide trick - you get the same in the big Plazas in the Far East. Anyway enough of my ramblings about shopping. A bit like how most food stores always have the essential items like bread and milk right at the back of the store, so you meander and walk by and buy stuff that you had no intention of buying.
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Post by capitalomnibus on May 3, 2017 2:19:58 GMT
They may become a little less keen if as a result of fewer or no buses, the retailers lose customers. There are plenty of other places to shop that people might think are easier to get to. Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. It would flop, Regent street would pick up. It would just end up like Narrow Way in Hackney. The shops furthest from the stations itself would suffer badly.
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Post by snowman on May 3, 2017 5:19:54 GMT
Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. It would flop, Regent street would pick up. It would just end up like Narrow Way in Hackney. The shops furthest from the stations itself would suffer badly. I tend to have a similar view, will become a nicer place to stroll for tourists, but doesn't mean there will be more people walking around laden with bags of shopping. I used to work in an office just behind Debenhams the only time you saw shoppers with multiple bags of shopping was mid November to mid January. My office was there for about 5 years including when the narrowed Oxford Street about 20 years ago. Started after Jan sales, finished mid Nov. All the buses one direction went via Wigmore Street, single lane other way. The road was dug out and lowered, kerbs moved in (except for lay-bys) and completely repaved with very thick York Stone. It was at this time many of the side turnings were blocked off. There were a lot more pedestrian accidents afterwards as the old step off kerbs were replaced by ramps where who has right of way became less obvious. The one safety feature that could have been done (but wasn't) was more low level repeater pedestrian red/green lights (they are mounted quite high, but people walking have to look slightly down to avoid bumping into people and their bags so lights easily missed). Today would probably have red / green coloured LED strips inset into the kerbs
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 7:49:20 GMT
Do you really think that is going to happen? I think business will boom once Oxford Street becomes a more pleasant environment in which to shop. It would flop, Regent street would pick up. It would just end up like Narrow Way in Hackney. The shops furthest from the stations itself would suffer badly. I really don't understand this negativity? Pedestrianised shopping centres are in vogue allover the country, why should Oxford Street be any different? There will be no more jostling along overcrowded pavements whilst breathing in traffic fumes and Crossrail will whisk people straight there with no more need to change onto a packed tube.
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Post by vjaska on May 3, 2017 9:58:14 GMT
It would flop, Regent street would pick up. It would just end up like Narrow Way in Hackney. The shops furthest from the stations itself would suffer badly. I really don't understand this negativity? Pedestrianised shopping centres are in vogue allover the country, why should Oxford Street be any different? There will be no more jostling along overcrowded pavements whilst breathing in traffic fumes and Crossrail will whisk people straight there with no more need to change onto a packed tube. Oh if life was that simple - once Crossrail is up and running and people become aware of what benefits it brings, it will be become overcrowded soon enough. Shoppers will continue to breath in fumes especially if they're coming in by bus. The only benefit is extra pedestrian space and that's it. Pedestrianised shopping centres used to be in vogue years ago but I doubt they are anymore - both Mitcham & Hayes have or are currently bringing traffic back to their pedestrianised areas.
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Post by snoggle on May 3, 2017 9:59:03 GMT
It would flop, Regent street would pick up. It would just end up like Narrow Way in Hackney. The shops furthest from the stations itself would suffer badly. I really don't understand this negativity? Pedestrianised shopping centres are in vogue allover the country, why should Oxford Street be any different? There will be no more jostling along overcrowded pavements whilst breathing in traffic fumes and Crossrail will whisk people straight there with no more need to change onto a packed tube. You appear to be suggesting that Crossrail will somehow be not very full and it'll be a delightful experience. The trains will be heaving full within months especially across the Central area. It is going to take at least 5 minutes from platform to street, more likely longer. People will tolerate that because they will have little choice once all the street level alternatives have been removed or diverted. The Central Line is not a pleasant experience - I used it right across London recently and it was heaving full off peak but thinned after Marble Arch heading west. It will gain some temporary relief once Crossrail opens but will fill up again because TfL will remove the bus options. And what about all those people for whom Crossrail will never, ever be the primary option? I'll still have to use a very busy and very very crowded Victoria Line. Every time LU pushes up the Vic Line's frequency it just pulls in more and more people. If I were to use Crossrail I'd have to change modes at least once and face an awkward and probably crowded interchange. It will be a fairly pointless thing for me to do. That will be the same for many other people who are going to lose their central London bus links off the back of Crossrail even though Crossrail is of no use to them. The TfL strategy is to force people on to rail where they can charge them much higher fares. The business plan has this as a core element. I think the thing that is "in vogue" elsewhere are large covered shopping centres - several have opened or expanded in recent years. Pedestrianised town centres are "old hat" and were nearly always linked with the removal of bus services, the creation of new car parks and new ring roads in those towns and cities where it has been done. I'm afraid I really struggle with the concept of increasing journey times for buses, encouraging car use through more car parks and road investment and forcing bus passengers to have longer access times to and from stops as being a successful concept for London. Bus networks in places like Leeds and Birmingham are not nice to use because stops are flung to the four corners of the City Centre. Try changing buses in Birmingham City Centre - it's horrendous if you need to cross the city as you have to trudge through the streets between "stop satellite" areas for routes heading in particular directions out of the centre. There are no real cross city bus services in Birmingham. London seems to be heading in that direction with what I predict will be dire consequences.
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 10:03:17 GMT
I really don't understand this negativity? Pedestrianised shopping centres are in vogue allover the country, why should Oxford Street be any different? There will be no more jostling along overcrowded pavements whilst breathing in traffic fumes and Crossrail will whisk people straight there with no more need to change onto a packed tube. Oh if life was that simple - once Crossrail is up and running and people become aware of what benefits it brings, it will be become overcrowded soon enough. Shoppers will continue to breath in fumes especially if they're coming in by bus. The only benefit is extra pedestrian space and that's it. Pedestrianised shopping centres used to be in vogue years ago but I doubt they are anymore - both Mitcham & Hayes have or are currently bringing traffic back to their pedestrianised areas. As far as I'm aware all that has happened in Hayes is a road that was blocked to through traffic has been reopened to southbound buses only?
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 10:06:10 GMT
I really don't understand this negativity? Pedestrianised shopping centres are in vogue allover the country, why should Oxford Street be any different? There will be no more jostling along overcrowded pavements whilst breathing in traffic fumes and Crossrail will whisk people straight there with no more need to change onto a packed tube. You appear to be suggesting that Crossrail will somehow be not very full and it'll be a delightful experience. The trains will be heaving full within months especially across the Central area. It is going to take at least 5 minutes from platform to street, more likely longer. People will tolerate that because they will have little choice once all the street level alternatives have been removed or diverted. The Central Line is not a pleasant experience - I used it right across London recently and it was heaving full off peak but thinned after Marble Arch heading west. It will gain some temporary relief once Crossrail opens but will fill up again because TfL will remove the bus options. And what about all those people for whom Crossrail will never, ever be the primary option? I'll still have to use a very busy and very very crowded Victoria Line. Every time LU pushes up the Vic Line's frequency it just pulls in more and more people. If I were to use Crossrail I'd have to change modes at least once and face an awkward and probably crowded interchange. It will be a fairly pointless thing for me to do. That will be the same for many other people who are going to lose their central London bus links off the back of Crossrail even though Crossrail is of no use to them. The TfL strategy is to force people on to rail where they can charge them much higher fares. The business plan has this as a core element. I think the thing that is "in vogue" elsewhere are large covered shopping centres - several have opened or expanded in recent years. Pedestrianised town centres are "old hat" and were nearly always linked with the removal of bus services, the creation of new car parks and new ring roads in those towns and cities where it has been done. I'm afraid I really struggle with the concept of increasing journey times for buses, encouraging car use through more car parks and road investment and forcing bus passengers to have longer access times to and from stops as being a successful concept for London. Bus networks in places like Leeds and Birmingham are not nice to use because stops are flung to the four corners of the City Centre. Try changing buses in Birmingham City Centre - it's horrendous if you need to cross the city as you have to trudge through the streets between "stop satellite" areas for routes heading in particular directions out of the centre. There are no real cross city bus services in Birmingham. London seems to be heading in that direction with what I predict will be dire consequences. We shall see and if Crossrail is soon heaving full it will obviously mean more capacity elsewhere, the Central Line in particular. Somehow I don't see Oxford Street being full of charity shops and pound shops anytime soon.
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