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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 9:42:29 GMT
Well firstly I don't think the 137 should be turfing everyone off at Speakers Corner and it should be rerouted to Portman Square or even Baker Street Station. Deeply unpleasant subways? Haven't they been filled in and replaced with surface level crossings? The other arguments were all put forward years ago when North End in Croydon was pedestrianised and no doubt other schemes as well? You'll never please everybody and there are far more pros than cons regarding pedestrianisation. Those who like the scheme (probably the vast majority?) will shop there and those that don't will shop elsewhere. Obviously shops in Oxford Street want to make more money and they've got serious competition from nearby Westfield to contend with. The difference is Croydon has three quarters of a ring road to disperse traffic to whereas Oxford Street hasn't. Oh and look how Croydon has turned out in regards to bus travel - lots of walking to bus stops scattered all around the town. As for that 137 statement, re-routing it or terminating it doesn't help any worker or customer traveling to shops at the Oxford Circus end - it is in effect TfL literally setting up their own sort of shopping experience by charging the customers before they've even made it to the shops where they will be charged again. Indeed look at Croydon now, business is booming with a new Westfield proposed, a few people have been inconvenienced but you can't please everybody. Likewise with the 137, I'm sure somebody who works at Oxford Circus will make alternative arrangements, equally if it is rerouted to Baker Street (better than Marble Arch) somebody who works there will have a direct service. When Oxford Street is at a standstill the 137 passenger probably gets off and walks to Oxford Circus anyway.
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Post by redexpress on May 4, 2017 11:54:22 GMT
The difference is Croydon has three quarters of a ring road to disperse traffic to whereas Oxford Street hasn't. Oh and look how Croydon has turned out in regards to bus travel - lots of walking to bus stops scattered all around the town. As for that 137 statement, re-routing it or terminating it doesn't help any worker or customer traveling to shops at the Oxford Circus end - it is in effect TfL literally setting up their own sort of shopping experience by charging the customers before they've even made it to the shops where they will be charged again. Indeed look at Croydon now, business is booming with a new Westfield proposed, a few people have been inconvenienced but you can't please everybody. Likewise with the 137, I'm sure somebody who works at Oxford Circus will make alternative arrangements, equally if it is rerouted to Baker Street (better than Marble Arch) somebody who works there will have a direct service. When Oxford Street is at a standstill the 137 passenger probably gets off and walks to Oxford Circus anyway. With the number of times you've repeated "you can't please everybody" in this thread, perhaps you should suggest it to TfL as a new motto. It'd be much more appropriate than "Every Journey Matters". You've completely ignored the point that in Croydon it's relatively easy to walk from the bus stops to the pedestrianised bit. They've only been diverted along a parallel road close by. That's not what is going to happen in Oxford Street, unless TfL miraculously manage to force some buses down Wigmore Street, which I very much doubt. Still, who cares, eh? We can just brush away all criticisms with glib phrases like "you can't please everybody" or "oh well they'll make alternative arrangements".
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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 12:05:40 GMT
Indeed look at Croydon now, business is booming with a new Westfield proposed, a few people have been inconvenienced but you can't please everybody. Likewise with the 137, I'm sure somebody who works at Oxford Circus will make alternative arrangements, equally if it is rerouted to Baker Street (better than Marble Arch) somebody who works there will have a direct service. When Oxford Street is at a standstill the 137 passenger probably gets off and walks to Oxford Circus anyway. With the number of times you've repeated "you can't please everybody" in this thread, perhaps you should suggest it to TfL as a new motto. It'd be much more appropriate than "Every Journey Matters". You've completely ignored the point that in Croydon it's relatively easy to walk from the bus stops to the pedestrianised bit. They've only been diverted along a parallel road close by. That's not what is going to happen in Oxford Street, unless TfL miraculously manage to force some buses down Wigmore Street, which I very much doubt. Still, who cares, eh? We can just brush away all criticisms with glib phrases like "you can't please everybody" or "oh well they'll make alternative arrangements". There really is little point in continuing this debate, just carry on burying your head in the sand eh? *Actually I can't see why one or two routes cannot use Wigmore Street. The same negativity was spouted about the Finchley Road changes but things seem to be ok as far as I'm aware?
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Post by vjaska on May 4, 2017 12:21:15 GMT
With the number of times you've repeated "you can't please everybody" in this thread, perhaps you should suggest it to TfL as a new motto. It'd be much more appropriate than "Every Journey Matters". You've completely ignored the point that in Croydon it's relatively easy to walk from the bus stops to the pedestrianised bit. They've only been diverted along a parallel road close by. That's not what is going to happen in Oxford Street, unless TfL miraculously manage to force some buses down Wigmore Street, which I very much doubt. Still, who cares, eh? We can just brush away all criticisms with glib phrases like "you can't please everybody" or "oh well they'll make alternative arrangements". There really is little point in continuing this debate, just carry on burying your head in the sand eh? *Actually I can't see why one or two routes cannot use Wigmore Street. The same negativity was spouted about the Finchley Road changes but things seem to be ok as far as I'm aware? There has long been resistance to permanent re-routings of buses along Wigmore Street hence why it's extremely unlikely any buses will be re-routed along there. The Finchley Road changes have only just happened - you can't measure any changes overnight just like when one operator takes over a contract from another. Just because something is ok immediately after a change doesn't mean that will continue.
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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 12:26:12 GMT
There really is little point in continuing this debate, just carry on burying your head in the sand eh? *Actually I can't see why one or two routes cannot use Wigmore Street. The same negativity was spouted about the Finchley Road changes but things seem to be ok as far as I'm aware? There has long been resistance to permanent re-routings of buses along Wigmore Street hence why it's extremely unlikely any buses will be re-routed along there. The Finchley Road changes have only just happened - you can't measure any changes overnight just like when one operator takes over a contract from another. Just because something is ok immediately after a change doesn't mean that will continue. As I understand it residents and businesses in Wigmore Street are understandably concerned about large numbers of buses clogging up the road? One or two routes would seem like a reasonable compromise? The Finchley Road changes have been in place for over a month now and no reports as far as I'm aware of buses being rammed full and passengers left behind?
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Post by redbus on May 4, 2017 12:30:26 GMT
The difference is Croydon has three quarters of a ring road to disperse traffic to whereas Oxford Street hasn't. Oh and look how Croydon has turned out in regards to bus travel - lots of walking to bus stops scattered all around the town. As for that 137 statement, re-routing it or terminating it doesn't help any worker or customer traveling to shops at the Oxford Circus end - it is in effect TfL literally setting up their own sort of shopping experience by charging the customers before they've even made it to the shops where they will be charged again. Indeed look at Croydon now, business is booming with a new Westfield proposed, a few people have been inconvenienced but you can't please everybody. Likewise with the 137, I'm sure somebody who works at Oxford Circus will make alternative arrangements, equally if it is rerouted to Baker Street (better than Marble Arch) somebody who works there will have a direct service. When Oxford Street is at a standstill the 137 passenger probably gets off and walks to Oxford Circus anyway. Oxford Street is unique from it's history, it's position in the West End, to the shops it attracts and so the comparison to other town centres isn't really fair. The traffic situation isn't comparable either as there are no alternative ring roads coupled with Oxford Street already being bus / taxi only.
Of course the shopping experience will improve if it is pedestrianised, I am not arguing that. The question being discussed is whether that should be the deciding factor. In reality it is a totally academic question as the Mayor has stated he will pedestrianise it, but hasn't yet got a plan what to do with the buses and taxis displaced.
Indeed not everyone can be pleased, but I think the best compromise is a few bus routes down Wigmore Street. If this can't be done I can't see how TfL will be able to keep to their no more than 400 metres from a bus route statement. Finally some through routes are still required in order to provide the comprehensive network.
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Post by redbus on May 4, 2017 12:38:37 GMT
and shopping is supposed to be enjoyable. What? So that's where I have been going all these years. Not realising that parting with hard earned cash in crowded shops and dealing with indifferent staff (a lot of the time) is supposed to be Fun Fun Fun. I think I'd rather go to the dentist. Hmm..... perhaps not. snoggle I would never have guessed you didn't like shopping!!! I am no fan either, but my family are (and they take buses into Oxford Street!), so I let them get on it with, that way my pain is only is the pocket!!!!
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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 12:40:29 GMT
Indeed look at Croydon now, business is booming with a new Westfield proposed, a few people have been inconvenienced but you can't please everybody. Likewise with the 137, I'm sure somebody who works at Oxford Circus will make alternative arrangements, equally if it is rerouted to Baker Street (better than Marble Arch) somebody who works there will have a direct service. When Oxford Street is at a standstill the 137 passenger probably gets off and walks to Oxford Circus anyway. Oxford Street is unique from it's history, it's position in the West End, to the shops it attracts and so the comparison to other town centres isn't really fair. The traffic situation isn't comparable either as there are no alternative ring roads coupled with Oxford Street already being bus / taxi only.
Of course the shopping experience will improve if it is pedestrianised, I am not arguing that. The question being discussed is whether that should be the deciding factor. In reality it is a totally academic question as the Mayor has stated he will pedestrianise it, but hasn't yet got a plan what to do with the buses and taxis displaced.
Indeed not everyone can be pleased, but I think the best compromise is a few bus routes down Wigmore Street. If this can't be done I can't see how TfL will be able to keep to their no more than 400 metres from a bus route statement. Finally some through routes are still required in order to provide the comprehensive network.
I pretty much agree with you there, maybe the 6 and 10 using Wigmore Street?
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Post by redbus on May 4, 2017 13:35:57 GMT
Oxford Street is unique from it's history, it's position in the West End, to the shops it attracts and so the comparison to other town centres isn't really fair. The traffic situation isn't comparable either as there are no alternative ring roads coupled with Oxford Street already being bus / taxi only.
Of course the shopping experience will improve if it is pedestrianised, I am not arguing that. The question being discussed is whether that should be the deciding factor. In reality it is a totally academic question as the Mayor has stated he will pedestrianise it, but hasn't yet got a plan what to do with the buses and taxis displaced.
Indeed not everyone can be pleased, but I think the best compromise is a few bus routes down Wigmore Street. If this can't be done I can't see how TfL will be able to keep to their no more than 400 metres from a bus route statement. Finally some through routes are still required in order to provide the comprehensive network.
I pretty much agree with you there, maybe the 6 and 10 using Wigmore Street? I will plump for the 139, 98 and maybe 10 or 390. The 6 is already going to be re-routed and the 139 will be the last bus left on the Oxford Street, Regent Street, Strand routing so that's why I have chosen that route. I would argue you need a EW service to TCR / Holborn and the 98 is a reasonable choice. The 10 may be re-routed via Shaftesbury Avenue / Piccadilly, but would also be a good contender, while if you are looking to keep the link to Victoria it is the 390.
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Post by routew15 on May 29, 2017 0:04:39 GMT
There is a report of the community groups in the surrounding areas of Oxford Street asking residents to oppose the transformation of Oxford Street ( Full report) — no surprises here
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Post by redbus on May 29, 2017 22:17:45 GMT
There is a report of the community groups in the surrounding areas of Oxford Street asking residents to oppose the transformation of Oxford Street ( Full report) — no surprises here I think the community groups in many ways have the right idea, often it's not the principle, but the devil is in the detail. Here it's what you do with the traffic so everyone can continue to get around, do their shopping, deliver to shops etc. While I see the point in saying no to 'transformation', given that consultation results seemed to be ignored, it will more than likely make no difference
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2017 22:44:13 GMT
There is a report of the community groups in the surrounding areas of Oxford Street asking residents to oppose the transformation of Oxford Street ( Full report) — no surprises here I think the community groups in many ways have the right idea, often it's not the principle, but the devil is in the detail. Here it's what you do with the traffic so everyone can continue to get around, do their shopping, deliver to shops etc. While I see the point in saying no to 'transformation', given that consultation results seemed to be ignored, it will more than likely make no difference Don't underestimate the power these residents hold over Westminster City Council. You will note their ire is directed at the Mayor's policy which rather suggests they know WCC is not exactly happy in being "piggy in the middle" between a Labour Mayor and a range of stakeholders / influential people. I also suspect that WCC don't want full pedestrianisation because they know what means for the surrounding area 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There are two wards that cover the area but interestingly the eastern extent of Fitzrovia is in Camden's area with the boundary to the west of TCR (I thought TCR formed the boundary). Therefore Camden's residents are partly embroiled in any decisions about changes to road use in WCC's area. I'm not saying the balance of power on the Council is under threat in any way but the residents know how to make their voice heard. I also happen to think they are right in highlighting the approach taken by the consultation on focusing on "high level themes" rather than giving any detail. This is a classic tactic if you want to steer the direction of a controversial consultation.
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Post by vjaska on May 29, 2017 22:46:56 GMT
There is a report of the community groups in the surrounding areas of Oxford Street asking residents to oppose the transformation of Oxford Street ( Full report) — no surprises here I think the community groups in many ways have the right idea, often it's not the principle, but the devil is in the detail. Here it's what you do with the traffic so everyone can continue to get around, do their shopping, deliver to shops etc. While I see the point in saying no to 'transformation', given that consultation results seemed to be ignored, it will more than likely make no difference
I do think they need to be very careful and tread carefully about grouping buses with other motor vehicles - unlike other motor vehicle groups, buses currently along Oxford Street are far cleaner in emissions especially as only a handful still retain diesel buses and those still remaining have had emission mods bar maybe the 23's DN's though I suspect they will disappear when it's hacked to pieces anyway.
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Post by redbus on May 29, 2017 23:03:53 GMT
I think the community groups in many ways have the right idea, often it's not the principle, but the devil is in the detail. Here it's what you do with the traffic so everyone can continue to get around, do their shopping, deliver to shops etc. While I see the point in saying no to 'transformation', given that consultation results seemed to be ignored, it will more than likely make no difference
I do think they need to be very careful and tread carefully about grouping buses with other motor vehicles - unlike other motor vehicle groups, buses currently along Oxford Street are far cleaner in emissions especially as only a handful still retain diesel buses and those still remaining have had emission mods bar maybe the 23's DN's though I suspect they will disappear when it's hacked to pieces anyway. Agreed. Personally I am against full pedestrianisation because I have no good answer about what to do with all the buses. I would certainly leave some bus routes going down Oxford Street to provide connections, enable people to get around the West End etc. As for pollution there are ways around that. We already have full electric deckers on the 98, and whilst these have a lower capacity who would have thought just a few short years ago there would be such buses. In a few more years I suspect they will have solved the capacity issue. Arguably you could remove the rear staircase and door on the LT and have a battery store instead, making it an electric LT with a similar capacity! There's also the AD virtual electric bus, which looking at it would have the capacity to travel the likes of Oxford Street solely on electric power, yet has a conventional decker capacity. I think there are options for zero emissions buses on Oxford Street, and these options are only going to grow and get better.
I agree with the tack taken by the community groups, let's see where it goes.
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Post by sid on May 30, 2017 8:35:43 GMT
I do think they need to be very careful and tread carefully about grouping buses with other motor vehicles - unlike other motor vehicle groups, buses currently along Oxford Street are far cleaner in emissions especially as only a handful still retain diesel buses and those still remaining have had emission mods bar maybe the 23's DN's though I suspect they will disappear when it's hacked to pieces anyway. Agreed. Personally I am against full pedestrianisation because I have no good answer about what to do with all the buses. I would certainly leave some bus routes going down Oxford Street to provide connections, enable people to get around the West End etc. As for pollution there are ways around that. We already have full electric deckers on the 98, and whilst these have a lower capacity who would have thought just a few short years ago there would be such buses. In a few more years I suspect they will have solved the capacity issue. Arguably you could remove the rear staircase and door on the LT and have a battery store instead, making it an electric LT with a similar capacity! There's also the AD virtual electric bus, which looking at it would have the capacity to travel the likes of Oxford Street solely on electric power, yet has a conventional decker capacity. I think there are options for zero emissions buses on Oxford Street, and these options are only going to grow and get better.
I agree with the tack taken by the community groups, let's see where it goes.
Pedestrianisation of Oxford Street is inevitable and it has been for years and the opening of Crossrail seems as good a time as any to implement it. Removing the rear door and staircase of LT's and converting them to battery bus is an interesting idea. The buses are not being used for the purpose that they were designed and the rear door and staircase are generally superfluous.
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