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Post by allentc on Jun 3, 2017 10:07:12 GMT
Why aren't there more Optare buses in London? Apart from a few with RATP/Quality Line, some electric ones with Arriva and the DOE/SOEs at GAL there aren't that many elsewhere. Their designs have always been quite different (some attractive, others not) from some of the blander rectangles out there and for me they have the nicest interiors with pleasant indirect lighting and mouldings. Also, I believe Optare vehicles tend to be amongst the lightest in their class which surely must appeal to those wanting to save fuel.
It wasn't long ago that Wright was a bit part player with the Dennis Dart bodied Handybus. Then they launched the Crusader and Gemini bodies and it really took off from there propelling them to become probably the second most popular bus manufacturer in London after ADL. Recently MCV and BYD have won business in London but nothing for Optare. Why haven't Optare been able to do the same?
I have noticed that Optare's range of engines are quite limited. In the recent past they have offered Mercedes and MAN engined buses but could the fact they don't offer a Volvo or Scania engined product, or until recently a Cummins engined product be holding them back? If they bodied for other chassis rather than being strictly integrals would that help them win more business?
Could their product range also be a unappealing? The Solo is great but being wheel foward limits its usefulness and appeal. Why isn't the Metrocity a stronger contenter to the Enviro 200? The Metrodecker, on paper looks attractive, but despite trials haven't won any orders.
Are there perceived problems around customer support and product reliability?
After East Lancs was absorbed into Optare/Darwen I thought they would be able to win more business in London after all East Lancs products (iffy build quality or not) were quite popular amongst several operators in London. But it seems they lost momentum and weren't able to build on those existing relationships.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 3, 2017 10:30:42 GMT
Oh boy this looks like my sort of thread  I can give you some of my personal reasons why I feel Optare are not that popular in London. When I was quite young I remember seeing some new Versas on the 396, I was eager to try these buses however being quite young I wasn't really allowed out and about by myself and so never got to ride one when I first saw them. About a few months later one turned up on the 62 and I could finally get my ride on one. Well I have to say that my eagerness to ride them vanished just like that, completely vile buses. Terrible interior (however that's not Optare's fault), terrible ride quality, the bus sounded like it was being powered by as fan. It was a massive blow to me when in 2011 the brand new Enviro200s that were ordered for the 62 only spent a few months on the route before being swapped with PD's Versas  so that all the Versas could be in the same garage. Over the next 4 years the 62 became an absolute nightmare to ride on with those buses. Around this point I had also started to really dislike the design of the bus visually. However on the plus side, these buses were starting to become extremely unreliable, most days they'd just be sitting in BK VOR and luckily the 62 ended up being half Double Decker most days. I must have been the happiest person when the 62 was awarded with new MMCs and I was even happier when 25301-25309 were taken out of London service  Unluckily we are still plagued with 25310-25314 in the area (bar 25312). Another load of Optare in my area are those disastrous things found at RR on the school routes. The unorthodox noises some of them make is amazing, I remember when one of them broke down in my school's car park on the 686 and the bus behind couldn't get out either  . Had to have a huge team of teachers trying to direct a reversing bus through an extremely narrow car park and out onto London Road. Don't all come at me with pitchforks at once  |
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Post by rmz19 on Jun 3, 2017 10:55:45 GMT
I was too young to remember the Optare Spectra when they were operating in limited quantities in London but I do remember when they were on the 13 and 53 (or 3/both?), I was lucky enough to ride one on the former on my way to school and recall it being a fleeting yet pleasant experience.
Much more recently, the Optare Olympus was a great bus in all respects and I feel they were prematurely withdrawn from service, despite the Scania chassis variant providing a stiff ride. Today the refurbished DOEs give all modern DDs a run for their money, flawless ride quality and still look relevant in the current era, perhaps even ahead of its time with its striking front design.
I'm sure the MetroDecker would be a brilliant addition to London's fleet given it uses the Integral chassis, why they haven't been ordered yet is beyond me and frankly a shame.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 3, 2017 11:16:54 GMT
Oh boy this looks like my sort of thread I can give you some of my personal reasons why I feel Optare are not that popular in London. When I was quite young I remember seeing some new Versas on the 396, I was eager to try these buses however being quite young I wasn't really allowed out and about by myself and so never got to ride one when I first saw them. About a few months later one turned up on the 62 and I could finally get my ride on one. Well I have to say that my eagerness to ride them vanished just like that, completely vile buses. Terrible interior (however that's not Optare's fault), terrible ride quality, the bus sounded like it was being powered by as fan. It was a massive blow to me when in 2011 the brand new Enviro200s that were ordered for the 62 only spent a few months on the route before being swapped with PD's Versas so that all the Versas could be in the same garage. Over the next 4 years the 62 became an absolute nightmare to ride on with those buses. Around this point I had also started to really dislike the design of the bus visually. However on the plus side, these buses were starting to become extremely unreliable, most days they'd just be sitting in BK VOR and luckily the 62 ended up being half Double Decker most days. I must have been the happiest person when the 62 was awarded with new MMCs and I was even happier when 25301-25309 were taken out of London service Unluckily we are still plagued with 25310-25314 in the area (bar 25312). Another load of Optare in my area are those disastrous things found at RR on the school routes. The unorthodox noises some of them make is amazing, I remember when one of them broke down in my school's car park on the 686 and the bus behind couldn't get out either . Had to have a huge team of teachers trying to direct a reversing bus through an extremely narrow car park and out onto London Road. Don't all come at me with pitchforks at once Funny you mention the 396. It also had Optare Excel in mid 90's but they also proved unreliable at times for Capital Citybus (later First Capital) and it was common to see other buses on the route. There were days they were all off the road. The Excel did look nice style wise, but were unreliable. A bit like early DAF Sb120's
Never a fan of the Versa styling, think it looks daft to be honest. Not too much a fan of the new Solo, prefer the mk1. Even after the mk1 was finished CT Plus and a few operators still took orders for them and not going for the mk2.
Optare seems to be popular out of London though.
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Post by redexpress on Jun 3, 2017 11:26:47 GMT
Why aren't there more Optare buses in London? Apart from a few with RATP/Quality Line, some electric ones with Arriva and the DOE/SOEs at GAL there aren't that many elsewhere. Their designs have always been quite different (some attractive, others not) from some of the blander rectangles out there and for me they have the nicest interiors with pleasant indirect lighting and mouldings. Also, I believe Optare vehicles tend to be amongst the lightest in their class which surely must appeal to those wanting to save fuel. It wasn't long ago that Wright was a bit part player with the Dennis Dart bodied Handybus. Then they launched the Crusader and Gemini bodies and it really took off from there propelling them to become probably the second most popular bus manufacturer in London after ADL. Recently MCV and BYD have won business in London but nothing for Optare. Why haven't Optare been able to do the same? I have noticed that Optare's range of engines are quite limited. In the recent past they have offered Mercedes and MAN engined buses but could the fact they don't offer a Volvo or Scania engined product, or until recently a Cummins engined product be holding them back? If they bodied for other chassis rather than being strictly integrals would that help them win more business? Could their product range also be a unappealing? The Solo is great but being wheel foward limits its usefulness and appeal. Why isn't the Metrocity a stronger contenter to the Enviro 200? The Metrodecker, on paper looks attractive, but despite trials haven't won any orders. Are there perceived problems around customer support and product reliability? After East Lancs was absorbed into Optare/Darwen I thought they would be able to win more business in London after all East Lancs products (iffy build quality or not) were quite popular amongst several operators in London. But it seems they lost momentum and weren't able to build on those existing relationships. I would guess that the overriding factor is that their products have never had the reliabillty or longevity needed for intensive London service. Their products look fantastic on paper, and are great when new, but that doesn't seem to last very long. This perception isn't limited to London operators anyway - Optare don't seem to be selling huge numbers of buses to anyone in the UK at the moment. As for the former East Lancs products, I always thought the Olympus (and to a lesser extent the Esteem) was a very well-designed product - with better build quality it would have done very well. However in 2011 Optare took the decision that they would only build their own integral vehicles and would no longer do any body-on-chassis products for other manufacturers. In doing so, they've effectively shut themselves out of a large chunk of the market, especially in London where there isn't a great deal of trust in all-Optare products. |
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Post by allentc on Jun 3, 2017 12:07:31 GMT
I agree the Olympus has aged very well with the DOEs an example of how fresh the design looks against the recently released E400MMC and the Streetdeck design wise. I think Optare made a fatal error prematurely discontinuing it leaving it without a double decker product for several years. I'm sure it would have continued to sell well on the Scania chassis and perhaps more so if they put it on a Volvo one too (particularly a hybrid chassis).
I never did like the Versa with their overly bulbous front. Seems like other operators agreed hence the flat fronted Metrocity version which is much prettier in my opinion.
I've always been a fan of the Solo MK1 - a very pretty design and genuinely unique bus. Lots of them about and seemed to offer a real and strong alternative to a small Dart.
The Excel was also a very forward looking design for its time. Shame the reliability wasn't there otherwise they might have been bought in greater numbers.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jun 3, 2017 13:22:47 GMT
Well, when it comes to MetroDecker orders, Optare once again shot themselves in the knee - they made them available only as diesel or electric. Electrics cost a bit of dough plus need special facilities installed to charge them - lot of £££££. Whilst diesel ones are a bit useless now that London is on its way to stop ordering diesel DDs. I won't be surprised if 217's MMCs would be the last ones and everything else new is hybrid onwards - so far they are (deckers I mean). If they offered their latest bus on some hybrid chassis like Volvo B5LH, E40H even, then it would be a different story… Either way, Optare products didn't really show much reliability and operators like London United and GAL are rather cross about that and wish to avoid it. (Broken down Versas, Solos and Tempos. Let's remember the latter arrived late as well which made LU cross and order Citaros as their next 12m-ers). Let's remember the brilliant Olympus is still an East Lacs design - that's a bus company that SO did NOT deserve to get bought out  I heard the old Spectras were good though. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 3, 2017 13:27:04 GMT
Well, when it comes to MetroDecker orders, Optare once again shot themselves in the knee - they made them available only as diesel or electric. Electrics cost a bit of dough plus need special facilities installed to charge them - lot of £££££. Whilst diesel ones are a bit useless now that London is on its way to stop ordering diesel DDs. I won't be surprised if 217's MMCs would be the last ones and everything else new is hybrid onwards - so far they are (deckers I mean). If they offered their product some hybrid chassis like Volvo B5LH, then it would be a different story… Either way, Optare products didn't really show much reliability and operators like London United and GAL are rather cross about that and wish to avoid it. (broken down versas and solos). Let's remember the brilliant Olympus is still an East Lacs design - that's a bus company that SO did NOT deserve to get bought out I heard the old Spectras were good though. East Lancs did not really get taken over. Darwen the owners of East Lancs took over Optare, but decided to keep the Optare name. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 3, 2017 15:09:48 GMT
Mr Redexpress has pretty much captured my views. Optare vehicles tend to look distinctive but are often unreliable in the long term. Their unique designs will increase costs for bodywork and glass repairs because parts are non standard. I also think that the constant changes of ownership and very variable fortunes of the business will have unnerved operators who would be worried about warranties and the ongoing availability of spare parts and access to information. I don't know how competitively Optare price their vehicles but low production volumes must make it very difficult for them to compete against the likes of ADL.
Someone else queried Wrights' success. It is worth noting that Wrights have accessed a lot of government and EU funding for product and technology development which will have given them an edge. They have also been clever in that they have partnered with Volvo to develop a lighter double deck design to try to appeal to large groups like First Group.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Jun 3, 2017 20:37:24 GMT
Let's remember the brilliant Olympus is still an East Lacs design - that's a bus company that SO did NOT deserve to get bought out East Lancs did not really get taken over. Darwen the owners of East Lancs took over Optare, but decided to keep the Optare name. Oh so that's what happened. I stand corrected. Still, that means both Optare and ELC are effectively owned by somebody else - so will never be the same as in the good ol' days. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 3, 2017 21:21:46 GMT
East Lancs did not really get taken over. Darwen the owners of East Lancs took over Optare, but decided to keep the Optare name. Oh so that's what happened. I stand corrected. Still, that means both Optare and ELC are effectively owned by somebody else - so will never be the same as in the good ol' days. Optare is wholly owned by Ashok Leyland, part of the Indian Hinduja group. They have a massive range of buses for use in the Indian subcontinent - many are front engined. There is even a tourist double decker called the Leyland Titan with a 5 speed manual gearbox. The development skills within Optare are no doubt being used to help push forward bus designs for India (assuming they can make the operating environment a little less harsh). |
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 3, 2017 21:26:11 GMT
WOh so that's what happened. I stand corrected. Still, that means both Optare and ELC are effectively owned by somebody else - so will never be the same as in the good ol' days. Optare is wholly owned by Ashok Leyland, part of the Indian Hinduja group. They have a massive range of buses for use in the Indian subcontinent - many are front engined. There is even a tourist double decker called the Leyland Titan with a 5 speed manual gearbox. The development skills within Optare are no doubt being used to help push forward bus designs for India (assuming they can make the operating environment a little less harsh). There is still a minority shareholding for those that held when the shares were delisted ... but good as in theory |
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I can give you some of my personal reasons why I feel Optare are not that popular in London. 
so that all the Versas could be in the same garage. Over the next 4 years the 62 became an absolute nightmare to ride on with those buses. Around this point I had also started to really dislike the design of the bus visually. However on the plus side, these buses were starting to become extremely unreliable, most days they'd just be sitting in BK VOR and luckily the 62 ended up being half Double Decker most days. I must have been the happiest person when the 62 was awarded with new MMCs and I was even happier when 25301-25309 were taken out of London service 
Unluckily we are still plagued with 25310-25314 in the area (bar 25312).
. Had to have a huge team of teachers trying to direct a reversing bus through an extremely narrow car park and out onto London Road. 
