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Post by N230UD on Jun 17, 2017 23:27:19 GMT
I'm not sure how many of you have an interest in bus operations of East Kent, but Stagecoach South East have released a consultation regarding services in the Dover district of Kent, mostly affecting Dover, Deal, Sandwich and surrounding villages, which can be seen here: tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/South%20East/consultation%20document%20-%20proposed%20Dover%20area%20changes.pdfPredictably, it is mostly negative changes being proposed, such as reduction of frequencies, and withdrawal of routes from rural villages. Main points I have picked up: * Route 14 (Canterbury - Sandwich - Deal) withdrawn. This route largely follows Route 13, but serves more rural villages. The villages of Staple, Northbourne, Great Mongeham will lose their bus service (apart from school journeys). I've used the route many times, and the 14 does pick people up from these villages. Probably not enough to make any money, but it means these people will all have to find another form of transport. From an enthusiasts point of view, I will be sad to see this route go. It is a very rural route, and is mostly operated by double-deckers, going down narrow country lanes. For those of you who enjoy rural double-decker routes, I suggest visiting East Kent before its withdrawn! * Routes 87/88 (Dover - Sandwich - Ramsgate) withdrawn. The Sandwich-Ramsgate section will be replaced. However, the Sandwich-Dover section will be replaced by a route which goes via Deal, which will certainly add a lot of time to the journey, as this was a direct route between the two towns (albeit not a hugely well used route). * Route 15 will only operate between Canterbury and Dover, losing its extension to St. Margarets, Walmer and Deal. This is perhaps a wise move as Route 12 (introduced only a few years ago), gives a direct route between Deal/Walmer and Canterbury, avoiding Dover. It does mean that St. Margarets (one of the closest points to France, if you're interested) will lose its direct bus to Canterbury. Also the 15B will be withdrawn, meaning the River suburb of Dover will also lose its direct Canterbury bus. * Deal will have a local network of routes again. Currently, the 13, 14 and 15 routes operate through the estates (in addition to local route 82). These will be replaced by a few local routes, which will no doubt be inter-worked. This takes Deal back to the 1990s when it had its own local routes. * The 'Wave' reduced in frequency from every 15 to every 20 minutes. This is just after the route was relaunched with new buses fairly recently. Although I do feel a 20 minute frequency is better suited to this route. (the 15 min frequency section of the Wave is only between New Romney and Dover). I will be looking with interest to see which of these proposed changes actually go ahead. Even if these changes are necessary to avoid Stagecoach losing lots of money, it will cause a lot of disruption for some people, and I doubt it will make them popular! Over the last 10 years or so, the East Kent area has had improved frequencies, new faster/direct routes, increased passenger numbers, seemingly bucking the trend for the declining UK bus usage. However, these changes seem to suggest things are no longer so great. However, hopefully it may just be confined to the Dover district - it is a more rural area than Stagecoach's other areas in East Kent, and passenger numbers arn't usually as high as in places such as Margate, Canterbury, Ashford for example - thats from my observations anyway. Not much time has been given to get replies for this consultation. It was released last week, and people have until 26th June to respond.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 18, 2017 23:52:43 GMT
I don't know Kent's bus network at all. Last time I visited was in the 1980s when it was just East Kent in its early post privatisation form. Stagecoach do seem to be suffering as they are making substantive cut backs all over the place. Newcastle has had its network severely rationalised. South Shields ditto. They are consulting on a series of cuts and changes in Teeside and Hartlepool at present. The end result of all of this is a worse service for the public which suggests to me that Stagecoach see no upward trend at all in terms of growth, they see no propsect of any help to deal with traffic congestion and that there is nothing they can do themselves to grow the market. Given they're one of the more innovative large groups this is quite a danger sign for the wider bus industry. If Stagecoach sees few prospects, even in traditionally strong markets like the North East and East Kent, then heaven help the more fickle groups like First Group and Arriva who are not exactly stellar deregulation performers even when times are good.
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Post by sid on Jun 20, 2017 21:34:30 GMT
I agree about the 14, I've done it a few times on a double decker, certainly clobbers a few tree branches but a great ride. Last time I did the 15 it left Canterbury with a near full load but had pretty much emptied out by Dover.
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Post by N230UD on Jun 20, 2017 22:09:20 GMT
I agree about the 14, I've done it a few times on a double decker, certainly clobbers a few tree branches but a great ride. Last time I did the 15 it left Canterbury with a near full load but had pretty much emptied out by Dover. The 15 is certainly one of their success stories. If you look at timetables from the 1990s and 'Noughties', the frequency was hourly (and 2 hourly at one stage I believe), and also had variations to serve villages along the way. The route is now every 15 minutes for the most part of the day, with packed buses in the peaks. Until recently, some journeys were duplicated, but is no longer needed since more double-dealers became available. As Sid says though, this success is largely confined to the Dover to Canterbury section. To bit on to Deal is not so busy, and even less so since the 12 was introduced, giving Deal and Walmer a more direct bus to Canterbury I've also heard the 15 has had an impact on the Southeastern line between Canterbury and Dover, which is less frequent than the bus now.
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2017 14:11:59 GMT
I agree about the 14, I've done it a few times on a double decker, certainly clobbers a few tree branches but a great ride. Last time I did the 15 it left Canterbury with a near full load but had pretty much emptied out by Dover. The 15 is certainly one of their success stories. If you look at timetables from the 1990s and 'Noughties', the frequency was hourly (and 2 hourly at one stage I believe), and also had variations to serve villages along the way. The route is now every 15 minutes for the most part of the day, with packed buses in the peaks. Until recently, some journeys were duplicated, but is no longer needed since more double-dealers became available. As Sid says though, this success is largely confined to the Dover to Canterbury section. To bit on to Deal is not so busy, and even less so since the 12 was introduced, giving Deal and Walmer a more direct bus to Canterbury I've also heard the 15 has had an impact on the Southeastern line between Canterbury and Dover, which is less frequent than the bus now. I suppose for many the 15 would be preferable to the train with a fast run up the A2 and a more convenient location in Canterbury? Certainly buses in and around Canterbury seem generally busy, especially 'The Breeze' and the triangle service.
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Post by moz on Jul 5, 2017 12:18:16 GMT
I'm not sure how many of you have an interest in bus operations of East Kent, but Stagecoach South East have released a consultation regarding services in the Dover district of Kent, mostly affecting Dover, Deal, Sandwich and surrounding villages, which can be seen here: tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/Timetables/South%20East/consultation%20document%20-%20proposed%20Dover%20area%20changes.pdfPredictably, it is mostly negative changes being proposed, such as reduction of frequencies, and withdrawal of routes from rural villages. Main points I have picked up: * Route 14 (Canterbury - Sandwich - Deal) withdrawn. This route largely follows Route 13, but serves more rural villages. The villages of Staple, Northbourne, Great Mongeham will lose their bus service (apart from school journeys). I've used the route many times, and the 14 does pick people up from these villages. Probably not enough to make any money, but it means these people will all have to find another form of transport. From an enthusiasts point of view, I will be sad to see this route go. It is a very rural route, and is mostly operated by double-deckers, going down narrow country lanes. For those of you who enjoy rural double-decker routes, I suggest visiting East Kent before its withdrawn! * Routes 87/88 (Dover - Sandwich - Ramsgate) withdrawn. The Sandwich-Ramsgate section will be replaced. However, the Sandwich-Dover section will be replaced by a route which goes via Deal, which will certainly add a lot of time to the journey, as this was a direct route between the two towns (albeit not a hugely well used route). * Route 15 will only operate between Canterbury and Dover, losing its extension to St. Margarets, Walmer and Deal. This is perhaps a wise move as Route 12 (introduced only a few years ago), gives a direct route between Deal/Walmer and Canterbury, avoiding Dover. It does mean that St. Margarets (one of the closest points to France, if you're interested) will lose its direct bus to Canterbury. Also the 15B will be withdrawn, meaning the River suburb of Dover will also lose its direct Canterbury bus. * Deal will have a local network of routes again. Currently, the 13, 14 and 15 routes operate through the estates (in addition to local route 82). These will be replaced by a few local routes, which will no doubt be inter-worked. This takes Deal back to the 1990s when it had its own local routes. * The 'Wave' reduced in frequency from every 15 to every 20 minutes. This is just after the route was relaunched with new buses fairly recently. Although I do feel a 20 minute frequency is better suited to this route. (the 15 min frequency section of the Wave is only between New Romney and Dover). I will be looking with interest to see which of these proposed changes actually go ahead. Even if these changes are necessary to avoid Stagecoach losing lots of money, it will cause a lot of disruption for some people, and I doubt it will make them popular! Over the last 10 years or so, the East Kent area has had improved frequencies, new faster/direct routes, increased passenger numbers, seemingly bucking the trend for the declining UK bus usage. However, these changes seem to suggest things are no longer so great. However, hopefully it may just be confined to the Dover district - it is a more rural area than Stagecoach's other areas in East Kent, and passenger numbers arn't usually as high as in places such as Margate, Canterbury, Ashford for example - thats from my observations anyway. Not much time has been given to get replies for this consultation. It was released last week, and people have until 26th June to respond. The consultation has been extended and now carries proposed timetables for the changes. One thing you didn't mention was the 89 which currently drops straight into Dover from Whitfield is proposed to do a grand tour via St. Radigunds, River and Temple Ewell to replace the 60/A before reaching Whitfield. Moz
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Post by N230UD on Jul 8, 2017 21:50:03 GMT
I suppose for many the 15 would be preferable to the train with a fast run up the A2 and a more convenient location in Canterbury? Certainly buses in and around Canterbury seem generally busy, especially 'The Breeze' and the triangle service. Yes, after the village of Lydden, it is direct to Canterbury. It is more convenient for the people of Dover, as many people are probably closer to a bus stop, rather than the railway stations at Dover Priory or Kearsney. The trains stop at Canterbury East station, which is in a good position in Canterbury, just outside the city walls. However, the bus station is even better located in the city (Also, the bus station is much nicer than the majority of bus stations i've visted in the UK, i.e. it doesn't stink of pee and isn't covered in graffiti). I imagine the season tickets on the bus are cheaper than the train as well, although I haven't looked at that. One positive is the train though, is the last train from Canterbury to Dover is at 00.56. The last bus is at 23.30 (which is still very good for a bus service!). Yes, the Triangle has seemingly been very successful. From my observations, particularly the Whitstable to Canterbury section. It almost feels like a London service, in terms of stopping at almost every stop for passengers. Its better than a London service though, as it has wifi and USB charging points. Breeze has done well too, but I think the Triangle is probably busier (just from my observations, I have no evidence to back that up!).
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Post by N230UD on Jul 8, 2017 21:56:29 GMT
The consultation has been extended and now carries proposed timetables for the changes. One thing you didn't mention was the 89 which currently drops straight into Dover from Whitfield is proposed to do a grand tour via St. Radigunds, River and Temple Ewell to replace the 60/A before reaching Whitfield. Moz Yes, I noticed that rather grand tour! It certainly wouldn't make the service more attractive for residents of the affected villages, and would make the car seem much more attractive. Also, have you seen the proposed Saturday service for the 89? It looks awful! There is a possibility they may not withdraw the 15B, according to the local MP (although, not really sure I believe what an MP says). ".....Stagecoach have now promised to rethink scrapping route 15B, which would leave River residents sitting on a bus for an hour-and-a-half just to get to Canterbury. They also said they would reconsider changes at Eastry, which would be left with only an hourly service. And they pledged to hold talks with Kent County Council about ensuring villages left without any buses continue to get a bus service." I wonder if this MP has ever traveled on one of the local buses. Hmmm... Well, that quote was from this local news article.... www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/bus-service-cuts---think-128318/Where he mentions Eastry (just outside Sandwich) only getting an hourly service... well, an hourly service would still be pretty decent for a village of that size.
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Post by moz on Jul 9, 2017 0:59:18 GMT
The consultation has been extended and now carries proposed timetables for the changes. One thing you didn't mention was the 89 which currently drops straight into Dover from Whitfield is proposed to do a grand tour via St. Radigunds, River and Temple Ewell to replace the 60/A before reaching Whitfield. Moz Yes, I noticed that rather grand tour! It certainly wouldn't make the service more attractive for residents of the affected villages, and would make the car seem much more attractive. Also, have you seen the proposed Saturday service for the 89? It looks awful! There is a possibility they may not withdraw the 15B, according to the local MP (although, not really sure I believe what an MP says). ".....Stagecoach have now promised to rethink scrapping route 15B, which would leave River residents sitting on a bus for an hour-and-a-half just to get to Canterbury. They also said they would reconsider changes at Eastry, which would be left with only an hourly service. And they pledged to hold talks with Kent County Council about ensuring villages left without any buses continue to get a bus service." I wonder if this MP has ever traveled on one of the local buses. Hmmm... Well, that quote was from this local news article.... www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/bus-service-cuts---think-128318/Where he mentions Eastry (just outside Sandwich) only getting an hourly service... well, an hourly service would still be pretty decent for a village of that size. The changes around River do seem a bit rash. A lot of people from there use the surgery in Lydden which was the whole point of the 15B existing. This could be covered by rejigging the 60/A so one route went to Whitfield while the other ran through to Lydden, Bell as there is a turning triangle just opposite. With some clever scheduling the Lydden bus could make connections with the fast 15/X to Canterbury. Moz
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Post by sid on Jul 11, 2017 12:24:42 GMT
I suppose for many the 15 would be preferable to the train with a fast run up the A2 and a more convenient location in Canterbury? Certainly buses in and around Canterbury seem generally busy, especially 'The Breeze' and the triangle service. Yes, after the village of Lydden, it is direct to Canterbury. It is more convenient for the people of Dover, as many people are probably closer to a bus stop, rather than the railway stations at Dover Priory or Kearsney. The trains stop at Canterbury East station, which is in a good position in Canterbury, just outside the city walls. However, the bus station is even better located in the city (Also, the bus station is much nicer than the majority of bus stations i've visted in the UK, i.e. it doesn't stink of p*ss and isn't covered in graffiti). I imagine the season tickets on the bus are cheaper than the train as well, although I haven't looked at that. One positive is the train though, is the last train from Canterbury to Dover is at 00.56. The last bus is at 23.30 (which is still very good for a bus service!). Yes, the Triangle has seemingly been very successful. From my observations, particularly the Whitstable to Canterbury section. It almost feels like a London service, in terms of stopping at almost every stop for passengers. Its better than a London service though, as it has wifi and USB charging points. Breeze has done well too, but I think the Triangle is probably busier (just from my observations, I have no evidence to back that up!). I done the whole triangle route one day, with a break at Herne Bay, and it was busy throughout. Seemed rather strange such a frequent and well used service on some fairly rural roads. There are some oddities as well with some buses going via Greenhill and some into the University but it all seems to work very well and the service seems to be quite reliable despite the potential for delay, not least of all the level crossings.
Canterbury bus station does seem to be well kept, I noticed National Express have been moved out of bay 1 and now stop the other side of the travel office, I don't know if this is connected in any way to Stagecoach losing the contract?
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Post by N230UD on Jul 15, 2017 23:02:50 GMT
I done the whole triangle route one day, with a break at Herne Bay, and it was busy throughout. Seemed rather strange such a frequent and well used service on some fairly rural roads. There are some oddities as well with some buses going via Greenhill and some into the University but it all seems to work very well and the service seems to be quite reliable despite the potential for delay, not least of all the level crossings.
Canterbury bus station does seem to be well kept, I noticed National Express have been moved out of bay 1 and now stop the other side of the travel office, I don't know if this is connected in any way to Stagecoach losing the contract?
The Triangle is certainly one of their 'flagship' routes. I think one of the reasons its popular is that there is no direct rail competition between Whitstable / Herne Bay and Canterbury. It is possible to use the train, but it is certainly not a direct route between city and coast. Also, the stations in Whitstable / Herne Bay are quite a distance from the town centres / sea, making it more convenient to get the bus. Yes the bus station is well kept, and benefits from being right by the Whitefriars shopping centre. I also like how you have the old city walls and a line of trees at the bus station - far better than being in a concrete cave, i.e. Great Yarmouth bus station. Yes I noticed that as well with National Express. That bay was often used by Poynter's Coaches buses laying over - i've now seen them just laying over amongst the Stagecoach buses now. I have no idea if it is connected, but I do know that the bus station has capacity issues, and that is probably a reason why. I often saw Stagecoach buses in bay A1 as there was no where else for them to go, blocking the way for the National Express coaches. No news yet on the outcome of the consultation, but i imagine it will take a while to go through some of the replies, and also tweak timetables etc. In other news, on the Stagecoach website, they have announced they will be extending the 3-group services from Faversham to Sittingbourne, taking themselves into Arriva territory. This will compete with Arriva's historic 333 route, so its quite surprising. In my knowledge, there has never been competition between the two companies in this area.
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Post by tony4387 on Jul 16, 2017 8:02:10 GMT
I wonder if them extending the 3 group of services into Sittingbourne will be a step for them to start up services in the Arriva territory to provide completion
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Post by N230UD on Jul 16, 2017 21:18:21 GMT
I wonder if them extending the 3 group of services into Sittingbourne will be a step for them to start up services in the Arriva territory to provide completion Will be interesting to see if that does happen, but I doubt it will. Especially seeing as Stagecoach appear to be concentrating on making their network more efficient, such as with the Dover-area proposals. I wouldn't be surprised if Arriva are thinking of withdrawing the Faversham - Sittingbourne section of the 333 (not well used from my observations), and have told Stagecoach about this, who would perhaps have more success from giving Sittingbourne a direct bus to Canterbury. Obviously, its pure speculation, so we shall have to wait and see!
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Post by N230UD on Jul 17, 2017 9:08:45 GMT
Looking at the latest Notices and Proceedings for London & the South East published today, many of the new routes and route changes proposed have been registered.
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Post by N230UD on Jul 20, 2017 21:37:47 GMT
Still no announcement from Stagecoach, but the timetables registered are now available to view on Traveline (Thursday is the Traveline upload day, I believe).
I haven't had a chance to look at all the timetables, but it appears a lot of the proposed changes are going ahead.
I also noticed in the consultation, the villages which were losing the Route 14, were still going to have schools services and 'shoppers services'. Well, having a look at the villages of Staple and Great Mongeham, for example, they are only going to have one return schooldays journey, which obviously are not ideal for 'shoppers'. Most shoppers wont want to spend all day in town. However, its still early days yet, and other routes may still be registered at short notice. We shall see.
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