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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 21, 2017 17:50:47 GMT
I would suggest that Thamesmead does need a link to Lewisham, and Eltham as well, for a variety of reasons. I'm afraid it's not crystal clear to me what you mean but if you don't wish to elaborate we'll leave it there. Why would Thamesmead require a link to Eltham or Lewisham? It is merely a giant housing estate with a run down shopping area - it already has a link to other better shopping areas at Woolwich & Bexleyheath, a link to Crossrail at Woolwich & Abbey Wood and a link to the Underground at North Greenwich - what does Eltham and Lewisham bring to the table that is not only different but worth traveling further for? Assuming the post Crossrail bus network is introduced with no alterations, most directions from Thamesmead will be covered adequately. I would say though that links from the north east of Greenwich borough to the south are not great - and Eltham is up and coming - a new cinema is coming soon and it's got a good restaurant and pub scene, as well as a number of schools. I and others would welcome a link from Thamesmead to the south of Greenwich borough - maybe playing with the 126 would work for that?
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Post by sid on Jul 21, 2017 20:45:57 GMT
Why would Thamesmead require a link to Eltham or Lewisham? It is merely a giant housing estate with a run down shopping area - it already has a link to other better shopping areas at Woolwich & Bexleyheath, a link to Crossrail at Woolwich & Abbey Wood and a link to the Underground at North Greenwich - what does Eltham and Lewisham bring to the table that is not only different but worth traveling further for? Assuming the post Crossrail bus network is introduced with no alterations, most directions from Thamesmead will be covered adequately. I would say though that links from the north east of Greenwich borough to the south are not great - and Eltham is up and coming - a new cinema is coming soon and it's got a good restaurant and pub scene, as well as a number of schools. I and others would welcome a link from Thamesmead to the south of Greenwich borough - maybe playing with the 126 would work for that? I did suggest previously withdrawing the B16 between Welling and Bexleyheath and rerouting it via the 96 and 177 to Thamesmead giving a link to Eltham.
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Post by Alex on Jul 21, 2017 23:29:54 GMT
Ok, this one may be of note to sid, I've sat down and done some sums...... Now, first this is my fault for not checking - but the 178 schedule I looked at was the temporary one with the 20 minute service and not the ordinary one with the usual 15 minutes! This is where I got 3bph from earlier in the thread. So apologies for making a big thing of bumping up the service on the 178 Anyhow, I reproduced the 11 minute 'midday' service cycle on route 54, and the 15 min 'midday' service cycle on route 178 in a spreadsheet. With the Thamesmead trip added on, this takes end to end times as: Route 54, Elmers End to Thamesmead - 01:32 Route 54, Thamesmead to Elmers End - 01:31 Route 178, Lewisham to Thamesmead - 01:03 Route 178, Thamesmead to Lewisham - 00:59 Timings taken assuming running: Nathan Way, Western Way, Bentham Road, Carlyle Road, Thamesmead Town Centre and return. Due to the 11 min service on this period on the 54, this would increase the PVR at this time of day by 3. The lesser 15 minute service on route 178 would increase the PVR by 2. So, to be economical (it's good practice for members to try and justify their ideas/discussions a bit), and also keeping the end to end run times sensible and the organisation of a route practical, I will agree with Sid and say the 178 would be the one to extend Apologies to members if this has seemingly turned into the Sid and Alex how to get to Lewisham thread ("I just want to go to Lewisham!!!!!"**) but it has been interesting working out what things would look like. I would also agree with many members that any extension should keep end to end mileage sensible and on the most manageable route. I would be keen to do a survey on a mileage comparison of TfL's proposals and ideas from this forum but it would take forever ** - A take of an injured Rik Mayall desperately exclaiming "I just want to go to Swindon!!!" in a very funny production called Four Men In A Car. Go to 05:08 of this clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkntun_yyTsWhy would Thamesmead require a link to Eltham or Lewisham? It is merely a giant housing estate with a run down shopping area - it already has a link to other better shopping areas at Woolwich & Bexleyheath, a link to Crossrail at Woolwich & Abbey Wood and a link to the Underground at North Greenwich - what does Eltham and Lewisham bring to the table that is not only different but worth traveling further for? Well, you may ask , what I can say is that there is a trend in that area for quite a bit of cross-borough travelling, as Mr. Twobellstogo has touched on. In my time of being a regular at Woolwich it was a very frequent sight at Public Market stop of an ex Thamesmead bus (typically a 472 or 177) pulling in as a 53/54/122 was coming in to stop Z with a good few people legging it for the connection. There's a fair bit of interchange in Woolwich from other routes into the 54 to Catford, but obviously I don't know if all of these people have come from Thamesmead Now, my theory on giving good links to Thamesmead was to make up for the lack of railway stations in the locality, but, as many will be asking, will Crossrail be a game-changer? There always will be people looking to travel in the most economical way though so I'm glad TfL in the proposals are keeping quite a few established links, gives a chance to see what will happen
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Post by sid on Jul 22, 2017 6:19:48 GMT
Ok, this one may be of note to sid, I've sat down and done some sums...... Now, first this is my fault for not checking - but the 178 schedule I looked at was the temporary one with the 20 minute service and not the ordinary one with the usual 15 minutes! This is where I got 3bph from earlier in the thread. So apologies for making a big thing of bumping up the service on the 178 Anyhow, I reproduced the 11 minute 'midday' service cycle on route 54, and the 15 min 'midday' service cycle on route 178 in a spreadsheet. With the Thamesmead trip added on, this takes end to end times as: Route 54, Elmers End to Thamesmead - 01:32 Route 54, Thamesmead to Elmers End - 01:31 Route 178, Lewisham to Thamesmead - 01:03 Route 178, Thamesmead to Lewisham - 00:59 Timings taken assuming running: Nathan Way, Western Way, Bentham Road, Carlyle Road, Thamesmead Town Centre and return. Due to the 11 min service on this period on the 54, this would increase the PVR at this time of day by 3. The lesser 15 minute service on route 178 would increase the PVR by 2. So, to be economical (it's good practice for members to try and justify their ideas/discussions a bit), and also keeping the end to end run times sensible and the organisation of a route practical, I will agree with Sid and say the 178 would be the one to extend Apologies to members if this has seemingly turned into the Sid and Alex how to get to Lewisham thread ("I just want to go to Lewisham!!!!!"**) but it has been interesting working out what things would look like. I would also agree with many members that any extension should keep end to end mileage sensible and on the most manageable route. I would be keen to do a survey on a mileage comparison of TfL's proposals and ideas from this forum but it would take forever ** - A take of an injured Rik Mayall desperately exclaiming "I just want to go to Swindon!!!" in a very funny production called Four Men In A Car. Go to 05:08 of this clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkntun_yyTsWhy would Thamesmead require a link to Eltham or Lewisham? It is merely a giant housing estate with a run down shopping area - it already has a link to other better shopping areas at Woolwich & Bexleyheath, a link to Crossrail at Woolwich & Abbey Wood and a link to the Underground at North Greenwich - what does Eltham and Lewisham bring to the table that is not only different but worth traveling further for? Well, you may ask , what I can say is that there is a trend in that area for quite a bit of cross-borough travelling, as Mr. Twobellstogo has touched on. In my time of being a regular at Woolwich it was a very frequent sight at Public Market stop of an ex Thamesmead bus (typically a 472 or 177) pulling in as a 53/54/122 was coming in to stop Z with a good few people legging it for the connection. There's a fair bit of interchange in Woolwich from other routes into the 54 to Catford, but obviously I don't know if all of these people have come from Thamesmead Now, my theory on giving good links to Thamesmead was to make up for the lack of railway stations in the locality, but, as many will be asking, will Crossrail be a game-changer? There always will be people looking to travel in the most economical way though so I'm glad TfL in the proposals are keeping quite a few established links, gives a chance to see what will happen Yes Thamesmead is what might be called good bus operating territory and deserves links to everywhere nearby. I'm a bit torn between the 54,122 or 178 for a Lewisham link, the 178 is obviously a shortish route but the 54 is quicker and also serves Lewisham Hospital and Catford. My revised B16 (renumbered 416) would provide a link to Welling and Eltham or the 126 would be another option as somebody else suggested. I certainly think the 301 would be better as a local link between Thamesmead and Bexleyheath and is certainly more direct than the existing links. Right, that's Thamesmead sorted!!
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 23, 2017 12:06:16 GMT
Walked down to Erith Quarry recently to have a look. It's a huge site. Not sure where the 180 will terminate there, but it is reasonable to speculate it may stretch down to the edge of Erith Cemetery. Which would make it my new link of choice to North Greenwich... Quoting myself, which is not ideal, but there we are 😃 Have done some more Quarry exploration : the site stretches right down to the edge of Carlton Road from Fraser Road, so pretty much as far as Northumberland Heath, give or take a tiny bit. It is really quite large. The first phase of the Quarry is due to open in late 2017 - so it may well be that the 180 changes will happen before any of the other Crossrail changes?
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Post by danorak on Jul 24, 2017 14:08:25 GMT
Walked down to Erith Quarry recently to have a look. It's a huge site. Not sure where the 180 will terminate there, but it is reasonable to speculate it may stretch down to the edge of Erith Cemetery. Which would make it my new link of choice to North Greenwich... Quoting myself, which is not ideal, but there we are 😃 Have done some more Quarry exploration : the site stretches right down to the edge of Carlton Road from Fraser Road, so pretty much as far as Northumberland Heath, give or take a tiny bit. It is really quite large. The first phase of the Quarry is due to open in late 2017 - so it may well be that the 180 changes will happen before any of the other Crossrail changes? I was completely unaware of the existence of Erith Quarry until it was mentioned in a book about the late Linda Smith who grew up close by. She of course described Erith as having a suicide pact with Dagenham.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 26, 2017 10:07:24 GMT
Quoting myself, which is not ideal, but there we are 😃 Have done some more Quarry exploration : the site stretches right down to the edge of Carlton Road from Fraser Road, so pretty much as far as Northumberland Heath, give or take a tiny bit. It is really quite large. The first phase of the Quarry is due to open in late 2017 - so it may well be that the 180 changes will happen before any of the other Crossrail changes? I was completely unaware of the existence of Erith Quarry until it was mentioned in a book about the late Linda Smith who grew up close by. She of course described Erith as having a suicide pact with Dagenham. It had been abandoned for years : surprised really it's taken this long to develop. The redevelopment was slightly controversial because it took a small lump out of Pom Pom Wood as well as the Quarry. Pom Pom Wood, dare I say, isn't the most attractive green space though...
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jul 30, 2017 20:47:27 GMT
The 53 should be kept as is at the SE London end. I think any tinkering should be at the Whitehall end. Perhaps an X53 between Woolwich and Whitehall and a 53 between Plumstead and Elephant or Lambeth North would be a fair restructure. I'm sure TfL are watching the 140 experiment with great interest, with other trunk routes like the 53 in mind. The one bus that does seem to carry fresh air between Woolwich and Plumstead is the 122. As extending the 122 isn't really feasible, I think it could be looped back to Woolwich and not missed very much. Deckers on the 301 could easily take on the extra load on that part of the route. The problem in this area is that many local journeys are easier by car. The fight is against taxis and getting people to leave their cars at home. Greenwich council isn't very progressive in its handling of public transport and doesn't seem to grasp the small detail or demand very much. Ideal fodder for TfL in their current predicament. I think the 122 goes to PD largely for operational convenience. If the 122 was ever taken by another operator, I suspect it would fall back to Woolwich. In that case, route 122 may as well be curtailed at Woolwich, reallocated from PD to TL, and have routes 178 & 380 reallocated TL to PD in their place.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 30, 2017 20:52:06 GMT
I think the 122 goes to PD largely for operational convenience. If the 122 was ever taken by another operator, I suspect it would fall back to Woolwich. In that case, route 122 may as well be curtailed at Woolwich, reallocated from PD to TL, and have routes 178 & 380 reallocated TL to PD in their place. I don't see why you'd go into that trouble and inconvenience a few members of the public when everything can just be kept as it is with nobody being inconvenienced. I imagine Stagecoach are quite happy with the 178 and 380 at TL, and the 380 was recently retained from there. The 122 doesn't directly pass TL either, as it goes through Ladywell instead of Catford.
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Post by DT 11 on Jul 30, 2017 21:07:59 GMT
I think the 122 goes to PD largely for operational convenience. If the 122 was ever taken by another operator, I suspect it would fall back to Woolwich. In that case, route 122 may as well be curtailed at Woolwich, reallocated from PD to TL, and have routes 178 & 380 reallocated TL to PD in their place. The 122 wouldn't need to be withdrawn from Plumstead, Bus Garage if it moved to TL. In addition TL ran the 122 for 4 Weeks in 2012 during the Olympics. If space was required the PVRs of the 178 & 380 combined is 22 and 181 & 284 is 25 so should have room. In that case, route 122 may as well be curtailed at Woolwich, reallocated from PD to TL, and have routes 178 & 380 reallocated TL to PD in their place. I imagine Stagecoach are quite happy with the 178 and 380 at TL, and the 380 was recently retained from there. ...and this means something to the 380 because, doesn't rule it from moving out if required. The contract being recently retained means nothing really. The 1 & 108 have just moved locations and recently renewed. If the space is required at TL for the 181 & 284 something may have to be moved. I don't think there is space to fit anything else at Catford looks quite full up whenever going past it. So I wouldn't be surprised if some routes move around
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Post by twobellstogo on Aug 1, 2017 16:40:52 GMT
and this means something to the 380 because, doesn't rule it from moving out if required. The contract being recently retained means nothing really. The 1 & 108 have just moved locations and recently renewed. Exactly : contracts are won by operators, not garages. There's nothing to stop Stagecoach moving the 380 to Bromley if they wanted to (although of course highly unlikely!)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 0:38:18 GMT
Still surprised that under this consultation that poor links to Abbey Wood from North Bexleyheath haven't been addressed by which I mean, Bedonwell Road, Hythe Avenue and King Harold Manorway. I am aware that the 422 goes to Woolwich but this does take a long time from this area.
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Post by twobellstogo on Aug 27, 2017 17:45:51 GMT
Still surprised that under this consultation that poor links to Abbey Wood from North Bexleyheath haven't been addressed by which I mean, Bedonwell Road, Hythe Avenue and King Harold Manorway. I am aware that the 422 goes to Woolwich but this does take a long time from this area. Sorry : only just seen this. 422 is fairly quick to Woolwich from the points you mention. West end of King Harold's Way is close to the 301, Bedonwell Road not that far from the 469 - walk down the less busy section of Bedonwell Road to Woolwich Road and there the 469 is, and the Pantiles south westward is close to the 301. Maybe not ideal, but not dreadful by any means.
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Post by Gellico on Sept 5, 2017 10:44:15 GMT
I was completely unaware of the existence of Erith Quarry until it was mentioned in a book about the late Linda Smith who grew up close by. She of course described Erith as having a suicide pact with Dagenham. It had been abandoned for years : surprised really it's taken this long to develop. The redevelopment was slightly controversial because it took a small lump out of Pom Pom Wood as well as the Quarry. Pom Pom Wood, dare I say, isn't the most attractive green space though... It's an old rubbish tip so development wasn't allowed until recently.
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Post by Gellico on Sept 5, 2017 10:47:32 GMT
Still surprised that under this consultation that poor links to Abbey Wood from North Bexleyheath haven't been addressed by which I mean, Bedonwell Road, Hythe Avenue and King Harold Manorway. I am aware that the 422 goes to Woolwich but this does take a long time from this area. Sorry : only just seen this. 422 is fairly quick to Woolwich from the points you mention. West end of King Harold's Way is close to the 301, Bedonwell Road not that far from the 469 - walk down the less busy section of Bedonwell Road to Woolwich Road and there the 469 is, and the Pantiles south westward is close to the 301. Maybe not ideal, but not dreadful by any means. I live on Parsonage Manorway and none of my immediate routes go to Abbey Wood however within a 10 minute walk I have the 301, 180, 229, B11. It'll give me a chance to burn off a few calories. That being said the B11 could of been made a bit more round the houses route to cover more residential areas.
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