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Post by cl54 on Aug 1, 2022 13:24:32 GMT
What times are you seeing the 244? Peak times last week in Woolwich all seats occupied and lots of standing before the new Woolwich station shop. Is that so surprising thou that an SD route has a standing load in the peaks. To me unless it's leaving large numbers behind then it's probably just about coping as once it leaves Woolwich it's soon going to start emptying out. The point I made is that it was full to capacity before it reached the stop near the new station. People waiting there won't be able to board. They are travelling further than previously because of the Elizabeth line. If anything the 244 is carrying more people than 301s leaving Woolwich at peak times.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2022 14:26:26 GMT
I think the 129 to Peckham and the 177 to Lewisham would have been better although there are obviously swings and roundabouts. From what I've seen the 177 seems fine between Woolwich and Greenwich since the changes although it could do with a frequency increase at weekends when Greenwich is busy particularly when the weather is nice and the Camden Town of SE London is a good description. I suspect many people use the 108 between Lewisham and North Greenwich just because that's what they've always done and probably aren't even aware of the 129 alternative. I agree that the 286 should get double deckers although the 244 generally seems fine with single deckers from what I see of it. What times are you seeing the 244? Peak times last week in Woolwich all seats occupied and lots of standing before the new Woolwich station shop. At various times and people standing at peak times isn't particularly unusual, I'm not sure double deckers are cleared for the route anyway.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2022 14:29:46 GMT
What times are you seeing the 244? Peak times last week in Woolwich all seats occupied and lots of standing before the new Woolwich station shop. Is that so surprising thou that an SD route has a standing load in the peaks. To me unless it's leaving large numbers behind then it's probably just about coping as once it leaves Woolwich it's soon going to start emptying out. It’s an odd way to run a network by waiting to add capacity only when people are left behind particularly as people will probably give up and use alternatives instead. Most transport providers will plan ahead and have some spare capacity, not loads, but enough to stop a situation developing where people are left behind because it’s not a great look
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 1, 2022 15:17:13 GMT
Is that so surprising thou that an SD route has a standing load in the peaks. To me unless it's leaving large numbers behind then it's probably just about coping as once it leaves Woolwich it's soon going to start emptying out. It’s an odd way to run a network by waiting to add capacity only when people are left behind particularly as people will probably give up and use alternatives instead. Most transport providers will plan ahead and have some spare capacity, not loads, but enough to stop a situation developing where people are left behind because it’s not a great look But it can also be a big finacial commitment to DD a route just for some journeys in the peaks. Maybe a scheduled DD working like the 163 and 371 have might be a start to see if it solves the issue a bit.
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Post by route53 on Aug 1, 2022 17:02:53 GMT
You wouldn’t believe there was a so called cost of living crisis going on. Everywhere I go now at the weekend is packed full of shoppers, to an extent it is annoying People still need food and clothes in a cost of living crisis. I would say that Charlton will be busier than ever due to the concentration of cheaper retailers across the two parks. Knowing people who are directly employed by retailers in that area, I think the area has been a great success for creating local jobs. Traffic is a pain though. The car park at Boots/Lidl is a nightmare. For me, it’s so far, so good with the SE London Lizzie Line bus changes. Early days still for the 129. I think there might be plans to send it through Silvertown tunnel in a few years. I would hope it gets sent somewhere more useful than Beckton though. It’s been a couple of months since the 129 change and enough people in Lewisham know that it serves there now, and yet passengers at the Lewisham end are still choosing to get the 108 and it’s not hard to see why because of East Greenwich traffic is off putting. As for Silvertown tunnel routes, the 129 and the 335 are primed for such extensions, I doubt it’ll be to Beckton they may do a new route which runs from North Greenwich to Beckton
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Post by cl54 on Aug 1, 2022 17:29:14 GMT
It’s an odd way to run a network by waiting to add capacity only when people are left behind particularly as people will probably give up and use alternatives instead. Most transport providers will plan ahead and have some spare capacity, not loads, but enough to stop a situation developing where people are left behind because it’s not a great look But it can also be a big finacial commitment to DD a route just for some journeys in the peaks. Maybe a scheduled DD working like the 163 and 371 have might be a start to see if it solves the issue a bit. Marginal additional cost. It's not like an extra bus is needed for a school or college. The Elizabeth line is busy for several hours in the peaks. In the past I used to catch the first 244 into Woolwich from Shooters Hill and it was pretty full.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 1, 2022 18:01:42 GMT
But it can also be a big finacial commitment to DD a route just for some journeys in the peaks. Maybe a scheduled DD working like the 163 and 371 have might be a start to see if it solves the issue a bit. Marginal additional cost. It's not like an extra bus is needed for a school or college. The Elizabeth line is busy for several hours in the peaks. In the past I used to catch the first 244 into Woolwich from Shooters Hill and it was pretty full. Hopefully it will get a DD conversion if that's the case then.
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Post by WH241 on Aug 1, 2022 19:17:27 GMT
But it can also be a big finacial commitment to DD a route just for some journeys in the peaks. Maybe a scheduled DD working like the 163 and 371 have might be a start to see if it solves the issue a bit. Marginal additional cost. It's not like an extra bus is needed for a school or college. The Elizabeth line is busy for several hours in the peaks. In the past I used to catch the first 244 into Woolwich from Shooters Hill and it was pretty full. Are the costs marginal on say new electric double deckers vs single?
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Post by cl54 on Aug 1, 2022 19:50:01 GMT
Marginal additional cost. It's not like an extra bus is needed for a school or college. The Elizabeth line is busy for several hours in the peaks. In the past I used to catch the first 244 into Woolwich from Shooters Hill and it was pretty full. Are the costs marginal on say new electric double deckers vs single? Single decker said to be about £340,000 and double decker about £400,000. Pretty marginal over the life of the bus.
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Post by snowman on Aug 1, 2022 19:55:00 GMT
Marginal additional cost. It's not like an extra bus is needed for a school or college. The Elizabeth line is busy for several hours in the peaks. In the past I used to catch the first 244 into Woolwich from Shooters Hill and it was pretty full. Are the costs marginal on say new electric double deckers vs single? Not that marginal, as a very rough rule of thumb, think of it as extra £120k to buy the double deck, or another way is to allow extra £8k per year to bus cost or lease rental Obviously at current time cheaper to get new electric single decks, and top it up with some spare double decks for couple of school workings, than try and convert whole new fleet to electric double deck.
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Post by ronnie on Aug 1, 2022 23:02:18 GMT
People still need food and clothes in a cost of living crisis. I would say that Charlton will be busier than ever due to the concentration of cheaper retailers across the two parks. Knowing people who are directly employed by retailers in that area, I think the area has been a great success for creating local jobs. Traffic is a pain though. The car park at Boots/Lidl is a nightmare. For me, it’s so far, so good with the SE London Lizzie Line bus changes. Early days still for the 129. I think there might be plans to send it through Silvertown tunnel in a few years. I would hope it gets sent somewhere more useful than Beckton though. It’s been a couple of months since the 129 change and enough people in Lewisham know that it serves there now, and yet passengers at the Lewisham end are still choosing to get the 108 and it’s not hard to see why because of East Greenwich traffic is off putting. As for Silvertown tunnel routes, the 129 and the 335 are primed for such extensions, I doubt it’ll be to Beckton they may do a new route which runs from North Greenwich to Beckton Here again the blame unfortunately must be put on TfL’s shoulders The cycle lane on Trafalgar road / woolwich road is one of the most asinine decisions (and there are several) taken. Previously traffic was somewhat slow but bearable. Nowadays all that has happened is that the bus lane has disappeared (apart from a small section heading into Greenwich town centre). Eastbound is particularly bad even on normal days as traffic is now painfully slow and buses get stuck / delayed. Westbound is marginally better with the worst bit being between angerstein roundabout and blackwall lane.I remember one day when the blackwall tunnel was playing up and it took me 1 hour 10 min to get from Trafalgar estate to Blackheath royal standard on a 286! This translates into the 108 being significantly faster than the 129. The 108’s route is surprisingly quick as it doesn’t have that much traffic vs what the 129 faces - a large chunk of the 108 patronage is to head to North Greenwich. Actually the 380 is even quicker than the 108. If a 129 and 380 appeared together I would take the 380 to Blackheath royal standard and get a 108/335 from there! It’s also why the 335 is a good addition to the network. It’s essential for all the new housing at kidbrooke village no doubt but also provides very good support to the 108 (any bus which comes first will get quite crowded)
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Post by route53 on Aug 2, 2022 10:28:58 GMT
It’s been a couple of months since the 129 change and enough people in Lewisham know that it serves there now, and yet passengers at the Lewisham end are still choosing to get the 108 and it’s not hard to see why because of East Greenwich traffic is off putting. As for Silvertown tunnel routes, the 129 and the 335 are primed for such extensions, I doubt it’ll be to Beckton they may do a new route which runs from North Greenwich to Beckton Here again the blame unfortunately must be put on TfL’s shoulders The cycle lane on Trafalgar road / woolwich road is one of the most asinine decisions (and there are several) taken. Previously traffic was somewhat slow but bearable. Nowadays all that has happened is that the bus lane has disappeared (apart from a small section heading into Greenwich town centre). Eastbound is particularly bad even on normal days as traffic is now painfully slow and buses get stuck / delayed. Westbound is marginally better with the worst bit being between angerstein roundabout and blackwall lane.I remember one day when the blackwall tunnel was playing up and it took me 1 hour 10 min to get from Trafalgar estate to Blackheath royal standard on a 286! This translates into the 108 being significantly faster than the 129. The 108’s route is surprisingly quick as it doesn’t have that much traffic vs what the 129 faces - a large chunk of the 108 patronage is to head to North Greenwich. Actually the 380 is even quicker than the 108. If a 129 and 380 appeared together I would take the 380 to Blackheath royal standard and get a 108/335 from there! It’s also why the 335 is a good addition to the network. It’s essential for all the new housing at kidbrooke village no doubt but also provides very good support to the 108 (any bus which comes first will get quite crowded) You are correct about the 380 being faster to Blackheath Royal Standard from Lewisham with the option of changing for either a 108 or 335, however the problem is that the 108 can get very packed by the time it gets to Blackheath Royal Standard if you want a destination beyond North Greenwich. The 335 is a great addition, I think it should be 24 hours on a weekend, there are no nearby night buses from central London to Kidbrooke, and the N89, N21 and 321 routes don’t go near there but serve only the surrounding areas, the Jubilee line being 24 hours on weekends with a 335 would make people feel safer.
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Post by cl54 on Aug 2, 2022 11:13:24 GMT
Are the costs marginal on say new electric double deckers vs single? Not that marginal, as a very rough rule of thumb, think of it as extra £120k to buy the double deck, or another way is to allow extra £8k per year to bus cost or lease rental Obviously at current time cheaper to get new electric single decks, and top it up with some spare double decks for couple of school workings, than try and convert whole new fleet to electric double deck. The difference I've quoted above is £60,000 not £120,000. It's not busy because of school journeys. It's the DLR and Elizabeth line over a number of hours each weekday. Extra single deckers to meet demand make the difference more marginal. Less drivers required if you put double deckers on the route.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 2, 2022 13:47:52 GMT
Not that marginal, as a very rough rule of thumb, think of it as extra £120k to buy the double deck, or another way is to allow extra £8k per year to bus cost or lease rental Obviously at current time cheaper to get new electric single decks, and top it up with some spare double decks for couple of school workings, than try and convert whole new fleet to electric double deck. The difference I've quoted above is £60,000 not £120,000. It's not busy because of school journeys. It's the DLR and Elizabeth line over a number of hours each weekday. Extra single deckers to meet demand make the difference more marginal. Less drivers required if you put double deckers on the route. TBF, he did say “a rough rule of thumb” rather than it being exactly £120,000
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 2, 2022 14:02:21 GMT
The difference I've quoted above is £60,000 not £120,000. It's not busy because of school journeys. It's the DLR and Elizabeth line over a number of hours each weekday. Extra single deckers to meet demand make the difference more marginal. Less drivers required if you put double deckers on the route. TBF, he did say “a rough rule of thumb” rather than it being exactly £120,000 I am more inclined to believe snowman figures are nearer the true figure. I would have said £100k+, but no idea on the exact figure.
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