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Post by JaysBusPhotos on Jul 14, 2017 9:50:40 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London.
One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted.
Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading
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Post by vjaska on Jul 14, 2017 10:13:20 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading Personally I'd rather the 'Kindle' blind be trialled again - I think it got a lot of unfair stick given that new technology always has a big chance to fail and that many technological advances have required improvements of sorts. If LED's were ever implemented on TfL buses, then I'd only want to see Lewis J.N. in charge of what & how it's displayed otherwise just don't bother because TfL's blind policy in terms of what is displayed can never make its mind up with some places getting good descriptive blinds and others getting a generic vague blind. |
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Post by Lewis J.N. on Jul 14, 2017 13:04:26 GMT
If LEDs were ever implemented on TfL buses, then I'd only want to see Lewis J.N. in charge of what & how it's displayed otherwise just don't bother Ta for the shout out  One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back ones paper. I actually really like this idea and surprised I've never thought of it myself before - it's something Lothian buses did for years and very possible with a Mobitec side setup all linked into the same controller. These days you can actually produce LED screens with very dense lights so it'd be possible to get a Johnston setup on the side akin to a blind display, but then use computer trickery to produce scrolling or switching messages to actually inform people where the bus is going. As you say it would also increase reliability tenfold as side blinds are known for being too long and jamming themselves up as a result. With LEDs as well you can program a virtually infinite number of destinations and use them to advertise information that would be impossible or impractical on paper blinds - something I'm trying to get with Carousel at the moment is a display which reads 'this bus departs in x minutes' as the bus sits in a bus station before beginning its trip. With modern tracking devices the ultimate aim would be to have via displays which update as the bus progresses on the route and can alter to display real-time information if there's a route curtailment or diversion. The more you aim to put on a blind (sure, the more that can go wrong but not if you do it properly and train people to use it) the more people will read it - might even improve drivers' lives if passengers are actually pointed out to the fact that the bus is curtailed or diverted prior to boarding. In my signature I have a draft of what I'd do if I was able to play with colour displays to emphasise a part-route journey. |
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Post by sid on Jul 14, 2017 13:21:05 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading It can't be cost otherwise just about every other bus operator in the UK wouldn't have long since switched to LED, even most ex London buses are converted to LED before starting a new life elsewhere. Perhaps it's just the old not invented here syndrome?
Whilst I can understand the argument about blinds perhaps looking nicer and making photography easier I think practicality has to take precedence over sentimentality and all buses should be converted to LED asap!
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 14, 2017 13:25:46 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading It can't be cost otherwise just about every other bus operator in the UK wouldn't have long since switched to LED, even most ex London buses are converted to LED before starting a new life elsewhere. Perhaps it's just the old not invented here syndrome?
Whilst I can understand the argument about blinds perhaps looking nicer and making photography easier I think practicality has to take precedence over sentimentality and all buses should be converted to LED asap!
I think LCDs should be trialled instead of LEDs, as they can display a bigger range of colour. However before any of that like vjaska I do think the e-ink paper should be trialled again. Te technology already works well on Kindles and other e-readers so it's beyond me how TfL managed to muck up the trial on TEH1224 so badly. But if they do learn from the weaknesses that trial had they could improve. Maybe having one long piece of e-ink display custom made for the front, as well as displays that actually fit into the side blinds.  |
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Post by JaysBusPhotos on Jul 14, 2017 13:48:08 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading It can't be cost otherwise just about every other bus operator in the UK wouldn't have long since switched to LED, even most ex London buses are converted to LED before starting a new life elsewhere. Perhaps it's just the old not invented here syndrome?
Whilst I can understand the argument about blinds perhaps looking nicer and making photography easier I think practicality has to take precedence over sentimentality and all buses should be converted to LED asap!
I completely agree that the blinds need a upgrade, just I would prefer the paper ones to stay but like everything things need to change. I would sort of get them not wanting to upgrade but why buses are still being ordered with paper blind boxes just baffles me. |
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Post by JaysBusPhotos on Jul 14, 2017 13:59:45 GMT
If LEDs were ever implemented on TfL buses, then I'd only want to see Lewis J.N. in charge of what & how it's displayed otherwise just don't bother Ta for the shout out One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back ones paper. I actually really like this idea and surprised I've never thought of it myself before - it's something Lothian buses did for years and very possible with a Mobitec side setup all linked into the same controller. These days you can actually produce LED screens with very dense lights so it'd be possible to get a Johnston setup on the side akin to a blind display, but then use computer trickery to produce scrolling or switching messages to actually inform people where the bus is going. As you say it would also increase reliability tenfold as side blinds are known for being too long and jamming themselves up as a result. With LEDs as well you can program a virtually infinite number of destinations and use them to advertise information that would be impossible or impractical on paper blinds - something I'm trying to get with Carousel at the moment is a display which reads 'this bus departs in x minutes' as the bus sits in a bus station before beginning its trip. With modern tracking devices the ultimate aim would be to have via displays which update as the bus progresses on the route and can alter to display real-time information if there's a route curtailment or diversion. The more you aim to put on a blind (sure, the more that can go wrong but not if you do it properly and train people to use it) the more people will read it - might even improve drivers' lives if passengers are actually pointed out to the fact that the bus is curtailed or diverted prior to boarding. In my signature I have a draft of what I'd do if I was able to play with colour displays to emphasise a part-route journey. Thanks, I do like the idea of having the departure time on the blind, that with the diversion/curtailment information and informing passengers when the bus is full as you say will make a drivers jobs a little easier. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 14, 2017 14:10:57 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading  "perverting TfL"  - sounds like a dodgy newspaper article in the making. I fear to tread into this topic again. I don't think cost is anything to do with it. I also don't think TfL need to trial standard technology. They will know precisely what is on the market and any of the large operators who run buses for TfL could give TfL chapter and verse about electronic blinds for nothing. They all have experience with different generations of kit on their fleets and there's no commercial reason why they wouldn't have a discussion with TfL about their experiences. Operators may even have lobbied TfL about blind technology for all we know. All sorts of stuff is discussed behind the scenes as you would expect. I suspect TfL is more concerned about legibility, presentation quality, ability to *properly* render New Johnson text and also reliability. This is obviously speculation on my part and I can't point to any definitive evidence about current concerns. I do know that TfL will be hyper sensitive to criticism from politicians and lobby groups about any worsening of legibility and visibility of blind displays for those with vision problems. There have been plenty of questions in the past and a former critic is now Deputy Mayor for Transport. And before people pile in to contradict, challenge and deride current / past blinds, defective blinds blah blah blah - yes I know. Anyone who reads the Forum knows all about that. I am offering a speculative view which I can't defend in any great depth. Therefore retreading well worn debates and saying how marvellous modern LCD / LED / kindle blinds are doesn't take us anywhere. I have just offered some thoughts as Jay requested.  Hong Kong operators have fixed signs that they switch on or rotate when buses are full. There's no need for very whizzy technology to cover that eventuality but given the slump in patronage how many TfL routes suffer from chronic overcrowding these days? Given that people don't read notices on bus stops / stop flags then I'm not sure a blind display would make that much difference. The displays on some Ipswich Buses, when I visited recently, were decent in showing buses were on diversion. Unfortunately there was just a complete and utter shambles at the railway station where I had hoped to catch a bus into town - no info, no posters, just a load of road works and lurking taxis. I ended up walking into town and back to the station later as there was nothing definitive as to where buses were going or how close an alternative stop might be. Shame really. |
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Post by busoccultation on Jul 14, 2017 14:37:52 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading Maybe the LCD blinds could be used to use different colours to give colour co-ordinated blinds on the routes in Barkingside. |
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Post by JaysBusPhotos on Jul 14, 2017 14:47:36 GMT
I have been thinking over the past week why TFL haven't put LED blinds on London's buses and the only thing I can think of is the cost, I don't see anything else perverting TFL implementing them. Now I am not a fan of LED blinds myself and would like them to stay out of London but I can see the benefits of installing them with it being cheaper in the long term and cutting down on the banditry across the network but I still prefer the old fashioned way with paper blinds, it just look better and it's nice to keep some heritage in London. One idea I had is to replace the side blind with a LED one but keep the front and back one's paper. I think this would be a good way for TFL to trial LED blind before converting the full set which will have to happen eventually, plus from what I have seen on my travels across London the side blind is the one that seem to break the most. I would hope that the LED blind would show more than the destination/via point, I would like it to tell passengers when the bus is full and possibly say "this bus is on diversion" when diverted. Well that's just one of my ideas and I would like to hear other people's opinion on this. Thanks for reading Maybe the LCD blinds could be used to use different colours to give colour co-ordinated blinds on the routes in Barkingside. Didn't think of that, it's a good idea if it could be done but don't think it would work well with every colour. Depending on the colour it could be difficult to see clearly. |
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Post by ServerKing on Jul 14, 2017 18:02:53 GMT
Funny enough according to "Buses" mag August in the London section it says TfL are trialling them on SEe9 on the 507/521 out of RA (Waterloo) - it has a 1080p full HD display and can even display the time and weather! *gasps, looks for chair* but can display a message if the bus is full as well. As it's a thin monitor as such, it can display the beloved Johnston font... perhaps Leon is on the forum and reads it from time to time... I've suggested LCD blinds if they didn't like LED and the e-paper failed... so look out for this bus on the routes or track her down on LVF  |
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Post by Dillon95 on Jul 15, 2017 9:49:42 GMT
I'm not a fan of Electronic Blinds, they aren't as easy to read in the sun.
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Post by sid on Jul 17, 2017 9:21:16 GMT
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 17, 2017 12:01:55 GMT
No because if you look at them directly as the sun is shining on them they'll be reflecting it and it'll be impossible to see. LEDs work by emitting light, so when light reflects off them they become extremely difficult to see. Whereas blinds do not emit light, they work by reflecting light into out eyes so when the sun shines onto them there's no effect at all. |
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Post by sid on Jul 17, 2017 13:26:35 GMT
No because if you look at them directly as the sun is shining on them they'll be reflecting it and it'll be impossible to see. LEDs work by emitting light, so when light reflects off them they become extremely difficult to see. Whereas blinds do not emit light, they work by reflecting light into out eyes so when the sun shines onto them there's no effect at all. Given the amount of sunshine we get in this country it's hardly a major problem  !
I've used buses in other parts of the country, and indeed Croydon Tramlink, and nobody seems to have any difficulty reading the display.
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- sounds like a dodgy newspaper article in the making. 
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