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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2018 10:46:10 GMT
It's now obvious that TfL are struggling financially as they are set to lose a billion from all modes of transport, so even if Sadiq had mentioned bringing part of the GN Inners to TfL, it would be highly unlikely. Then how far would they cover? To Hatfield? Stevenage? People may not be deserting public transport, sorry, badly worded and was tired, lol... but it doesn't have the appeal of stuff outside the M25. We may have higher frequency but there are no creature comforts like WiFi and USB charging. Reliability has been hit by lower road speeds plus roadworks and congestion. With regards to Stagecoach they did very well with SWT, see how First MTR are suffering now! That franchise was one of the best, now suddenly it's almost as bad as Southeastern... I don't know what penalties there are for VTEC abandoning the franchise, but if it is minor like an eBay non payment strike, more franchisees might follow their bad example. Let's see if the State use a more sensible ticketing system that isn't so expensive and confusing as the current models rail franchises have Snowman has explained about the performance bond. In essence what happened with VTEC is that income (and growth) was not as high as projected. They still paid the premiums that were due to the DfT in accordance with their contract. The difference between those payments and operating losses has eaten away the performance bond. Worse there was no way forward because the contract was predicated on Network Rail delivering a set of upgrades along the route to allow more trains to run and also to allow the Hitachi IEPs to operate (they need a strengthening power supply). I think, but am not certain, that the IEPs are also a bit behind schedule. Therefore Network Rail has caused the DfT to breach the contract. Similarly the trains are a DfT obligation so DfT have breached the contract twice. Given the NR works have gone back years there was no way on earth that VTEC could meet their commitments and once the performance bond is exhausted then the contract ends. This is where we have got to. In essence both parties to the contract got stuff wrong - DfT made commitments that could not be delived and Stagecoach / Virgin overbid in terms of growth - timing and extent. We do not know precisely where a TfL run GN Inners would stretch to. It would almost certainly reach Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North. An extra platform is supposed to be being built at Stevenage but it is delayed so trains won't run beyond Watton at Stone from Dec 2018. I'd therefore say that a future GN Inner service will reach Stevenage. I believe the new timetable abandons the long standing hourly service to Letchworth Garden City.
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Post by ServerKing on May 19, 2018 13:28:42 GMT
It's now obvious that TfL are struggling financially as they are set to lose a billion from all modes of transport, so even if Sadiq had mentioned bringing part of the GN Inners to TfL, it would be highly unlikely. Then how far would they cover? To Hatfield? Stevenage? People may not be deserting public transport, sorry, badly worded and was tired, lol... but it doesn't have the appeal of stuff outside the M25. We may have higher frequency but there are no creature comforts like WiFi and USB charging. Reliability has been hit by lower road speeds plus roadworks and congestion. With regards to Stagecoach they did very well with SWT, see how First MTR are suffering now! That franchise was one of the best, now suddenly it's almost as bad as Southeastern... I don't know what penalties there are for VTEC abandoning the franchise, but if it is minor like an eBay non payment strike, more franchisees might follow their bad example. Let's see if the State use a more sensible ticketing system that isn't so expensive and confusing as the current models rail franchises have Snowman has explained about the performance bond. In essence what happened with VTEC is that income (and growth) was not as high as projected. They still paid the premiums that were due to the DfT in accordance with their contract. The difference between those payments and operating losses has eaten away the performance bond. Worse there was no way forward because the contract was predicated on Network Rail delivering a set of upgrades along the route to allow more trains to run and also to allow the Hitachi IEPs to operate (they need a strengthening power supply). I think, but am not certain, that the IEPs are also a bit behind schedule. Therefore Network Rail has caused the DfT to breach the contract. Similarly the trains are a DfT obligation so DfT have breached the contract twice. Given the NR works have gone back years there was no way on earth that VTEC could meet their commitments and once the performance bond is exhausted then the contract ends. This is where we have got to. In essence both parties to the contract got stuff wrong - DfT made commitments that could not be delived and Stagecoach / Virgin overbid in terms of growth - timing and extent. We do not know precisely where a TfL run GN Inners would stretch to. It would almost certainly reach Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North. An extra platform is supposed to be being built at Stevenage but it is delayed so trains won't run beyond Watton at Stone from Dec 2018. I'd therefore say that a future GN Inner service will reach Stevenage. I believe the new timetable abandons the long standing hourly service to Letchworth Garden City. Didn't realise it was DfT and Network Rail that... erm, threw them under the bus Will LNER now inherit said Hitachi IEPs, as surely the same issue would persist as regards the power supply? Surely then VTEC are due some sort of financial redress if this is the case. It's like being sold a car with no MOT or V5 document. At the time, the State were so happy they didn't have to run East Coast anymore and welcomed VTEC with open arms it all seems such a mess
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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2018 18:59:09 GMT
Didn't realise it was DfT and Network Rail that... erm, threw them under the bus Will LNER now inherit said Hitachi IEPs, as surely the same issue would persist as regards the power supply? Surely then VTEC are due some sort of financial redress if this is the case. It's like being sold a car with no MOT or V5 document. At the time, the State were so happy they didn't have to run East Coast anymore and welcomed VTEC with open arms it all seems such a mess Yes LNER will be tasked with bringing in the IEPs. As I went up the ECML very recently I saw a load of the things at a new depot just south of Doncaster station. And yes there will still be a power supply issue but as DfT will effectively own the franchise it carries the financial risk of NR being late and still having to fork out for IEPs (via a PFI deal) that will be sat in sidings earning no money. Obviously a private sector company can't and won't sign up to an open ended risk which is why there are performance bonds and caps on liability. The DfT can, subject to its budget, absorb those risks by frittering away tax revenue or state borrowing. I expect DfT and VTEC lawyers have been involved in negotiating a way out for Stagecoach. I doubt we will find out any time soon if any "redress" has been paid. Don't believe what's in the media or pouring forth from the mouths of politicians about the East Coast debacle. A great deal of utter rubbish has been printed. I explained earlier the two main issues - over optimistic growth and revenue numbers (and thus premia to the DfT) by Stagecoach and a huge breach of commitments by the DfT (and Network Rail). The DfT know that they'd lose in court if Stagecoach took legal action hence this relatively smooth but still expensive exit from unaffordable and undeliverable future commitments in the franchise contract. The worry has to be that Grayling in his desperate desire to be rid of a public sector operator will rush (and therefore botch) the next stage which is the so called East Coast Partnership which is likely to try and merge service operation with maintenance of the route. There has to be a pretty high risk that we will see yet another failure on this route which will take us somewhat beyond the farce we have endured three times already on this route. There are also likely to be huge implications for the plethora of other operators who use the ECML - GTR, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Trans Pennine Express, Cross Country, Northern, East Midlands, numerous freight operators - if the maintenance of the infrastructure is done by a competing operator. It makes little sense to me.
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Post by TNL33036 on Jun 25, 2018 18:03:46 GMT
91105 and 82208 in LNER branding:
(Credit to Modern Railways/Original author and LNER).
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 1, 2018 21:03:22 GMT
With many recently awarded franchises involving mass orders for new trains, it does seem illogical to reject or replace a large number of modern rolling stock. Some diesel stock has been announced as being reused for a difference franchise, but most has no confirmed future use:
Greater Anglia - Class 360, 379 and Updated Class 321 Govia Thameslink Railway - Class 365 GWR - Class 332 (Heathrow Express) Hull Trains - Class 180 South Western Railway - Class 458 and 707 TransPennine Express - Some Class 185s West Midlands Trains - Class 170 and 350/2 TFL Rail's 360s will also be spare, as well all 442s not used by SWR
For example, West Midlands Trains could have chosen to retain the 350/2s, as well as taking the 360s from TFL Rail & Greater Anglia, rather than ordering so many new 730 Aventras, and could have kept the 170s (& taken some of TPE's 185s) instead of new diesel stock.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 1, 2018 22:49:55 GMT
With many recently awarded franchises involving mass orders for new trains, it does seem illogical to reject or replace a large number of modern rolling stock. Some diesel stock has been announced as being reused for a difference franchise, but most has no confirmed future use: Greater Anglia - Class 360, 379 and Updated Class 321 Govia Thameslink Railway - Class 365 GWR - Class 332 (Heathrow Express) Hull Trains - Class 180 South Western Railway - Class 458 and 707 TransPennine Express - Some Class 185s West Midlands Trains - Class 170 and 350/2 TFL Rail's 360s will also be spare, as well all 442s not used by SWR For example, West Midlands Trains could have chosen to retain the 350/2s, as well as taking the 360s from TFL Rail & Greater Anglia, rather than ordering so many new 730 Aventras, and could have kept the 170s (& taken some of TPE's 185s) instead of new diesel stock. We are now getting to the opposite end of the "stupid" spectrum with franchise rolling stock. In the past rolling stock was mandated to transfer across franchise renewals courtesy of Section 54 agreements. Many of those have now ended or will end. The increase in funders for rolling stock leases has started to break up the old trio of ROSCOs which controlled the market. Finally the DfT has changed the spec for rolling stock on a number of commuter franchises thus forcing out some designs. The DfT has also placed a high "quality" score on the provision of new rolling stock. All of this combined has led to some frankly ridiculous decisions to dump rolling stock which is perfectly usuable and in some cases brand new. There may be new homes for some of your list but I fear we will see a lot of perfectly decent stock go to the scrap yard despite many routes have trains that are far too short and thus overcrowded. I am also not terribly convinced that some franchises are buying the "right" new trains. I fear TransPennine are going to end up in an almighty mess if they get any strong growth on routes with new stock. All very lovely having whizzo bi-modes but not if you have 7 carriages worth of pax trying to squash into 5 carriages. Ditto with the loco hauled trains - they should at least have bought some extra carriages to give themselves some flexibility, platform lenths permitting, to deal with high demand. The mass withdrawal of all stock on Greater Anglia is stupid. By all means phase in new trains of the right design and quality on routes that genuinely need new trains / more capacity. However losing the almost brand new class 379s is daft - I know they may to to East Midlands for electric Corby services but we don't know. Similarly if they could use the routes then CLass 185s should really move to the Liverpool - Norwich service on East Midlands. They is very busy and needs more stock. Similarly there should be rational thinking about how you redeploy surplus EMUs to areas which could genuinely benefit from things like 350/2s. What all of this shows is that for all their interference and meddling the DfT have no idea how to manage rolling stock as a strategic asset and ensure that the taxpayer gets maximum usage out of stock until it is at the end of its life. There also needs to be a proper programme, irrespective of franchise change dates, that brings in new stock when it is needed rather than some ludicrous "aren't we wonderful" exercise in "rolling stock virility" competitions. There must also be service opportunities on the network where surplus stock could be deployed to create new services and ensure we do not waste expensive assets. Obviously there are many related issues like platform lengths, signalling capacity, depot space, siding capacity, route clearances etc but this could and should all be handled in a co-ordinated manner anyway. Network Rail are pulled from pillar to post from badly planned and implemented rolling stock changes which require infrastructure works and also route clearance / type approval. The debacle with the GOBLIN's Aventra trains shows what can go wrong and I fear we may be about to get a horrendous repeat of this on Greater Anglia given the Aventras won't fit some platforms in London and it remains to be seen how the Stadler trains perform. There has to be a better way than what we have now.
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Post by TNL33036 on Aug 1, 2018 23:17:38 GMT
With many recently awarded franchises involving mass orders for new trains, it does seem illogical to reject or replace a large number of modern rolling stock. Some diesel stock has been announced as being reused for a difference franchise, but most has no confirmed future use: Greater Anglia - Class 360, 379 and Updated Class 321 Govia Thameslink Railway - Class 365 GWR - Class 332 (Heathrow Express) Hull Trains - Class 180 South Western Railway - Class 458 and 707 TransPennine Express - Some Class 185s West Midlands Trains - Class 170 and 350/2 TFL Rail's 360s will also be spare, as well all 442s not used by SWR For example, West Midlands Trains could have chosen to retain the 350/2s, as well as taking the 360s from TFL Rail & Greater Anglia, rather than ordering so many new 730 Aventras, and could have kept the 170s (& taken some of TPE's 185s) instead of new diesel stock. In regards to the HT 180s I’ve been hearing that GC have applied to run extra services on the ECML, maybe they’ll use HTs 180s if their applications are successful.
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Post by snowman on Sept 25, 2018 21:21:16 GMT
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Post by routew15 on Nov 23, 2018 19:14:26 GMT
Should the South Eastern Franchise award not be announced by now? April 2019 is the current end of the franchise and it’s December now.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 23, 2018 20:34:41 GMT
Should the South Eastern Franchise award not be announced by now? April 2019 is the current end of the franchise and it’s December now. Just looked online - Railfuture says "November 2018" and we still have a week to go. However given all the bidders were required to rebid after Govia found a load of errors in DfT train service requirements I wouldn't be shocked if there was a delay with the mobilisation period being compressed (assuming the franchise changes hands).
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Post by snowman on Dec 15, 2018 17:56:11 GMT
Should the South Eastern Franchise award not be announced by now? April 2019 is the current end of the franchise and it’s December now. DfT has updated the franchise last week 12 December 2018 Agreement updated to reflect extension of the Franchise Term by 3 rail periods to 1 April 2019 (plus a 3 rail period option) and a small contract change to ensure London & South Eastern Railway Ltd makes proper apportionment of the accounts. www.gov.uk/government/publications/london-and-south-eastern-railway-limited
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Post by richard on May 13, 2019 14:09:09 GMT
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Post by snowman on Oct 3, 2019 13:58:38 GMT
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 9, 2019 20:50:58 GMT
If Court fails, never mind, once they've bought Arriva, they will get some franchises back
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Post by snowman on Feb 17, 2020 13:13:41 GMT
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