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Post by arrivaarriva on Mar 5, 2018 20:04:39 GMT
Stainea, Uxbridge, Watford Junction are a few. What other locations were there? Which of these former "green bus" locations are now served by multiple commercial operators. I used to see those beautiful green Routemasters at Staines and Uxbridge but never had reason to go on one as a youngster. Don't remember seeing green RT's in actual service.
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Post by N230UD on Mar 5, 2018 20:34:22 GMT
Harlow is a good example. London Country ran the local network from there. This was eventually inherited by Arriva who still operate from the same London Country depot. Arriva is still the main operator, but independent companies Trustybus and EOS play quite a large part too. Go-Ahead London even operate a route here, but its commercial (not-TfL) and is just one journey Mon-Fri to Romford.
Arriva also operate from Northfleet depot in Kent, another ex-London Country depot. Also, the Thurrock area was London Country, but now Ensignbus are the dominant operator and have made quite a success of it too. There are still TfL buses just about operating into Thurrock, in the form of routes 370 (itself a former LC route) and 372.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 5, 2018 20:46:47 GMT
Stainea, Uxbridge, Watford Junction are a few. What other locations were there? Which of these former "green bus" locations are now served by multiple commercial operators. I used to see those beautiful green Routemasters at Staines and Uxbridge but never had reason to go on one as a youngster. Don't remember seeing green RT's in actual service. I'm not an expert but the old Country area certainly stretched to High Wycombe, Slough, Dartford, Hemel Hempstead, Stevenage, Luton, St Albans, Hertford. Ironically after all the effort to split the old London Country up a fair number of the old territories are now run by Arriva but the network is vastly smaller now with routes lost or run by other companies like Ensign Bus, First Bus, Grant Palmer, Uno Bus, Carousel Buses etc Here is a LIST of Country area bus garages.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 20:56:07 GMT
This era was before my time. But the legacy continued in some areas particularly west of London, with LT bus stop flags lasting until quite recently.
You should go to one of the LT Country bus running days which recreate these networks.
East Grinstead, Slough, Windsor, Crawley, Dorking, Guildford, Reigate, Sevenoaks, Dartford, Harlow, Hertford,ST Albans, Brentwood, Epping, Watford, High Wycombe, Amersham, Chesham, Stevenage, Stanies, Grays .. all these places were LT controlled give or take.
Of these, TfL flags still dominate Staines** , Epsom* and bizarrely Slough , even though only one TfL route (81) goes there. I presume Slough Council contract TfL to maintain the flags and print the different operators timetables.
* After the Town Centre stops ** After the bus station
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Post by planesandtrains on Mar 5, 2018 22:14:01 GMT
I still don't understand why these areas (a lot of which are within the M25) are not under TFL control. Some areas are within the Oyster zone, are served even by the Underground. If LT routes could cross county boundaries before, why is it such a feat to get a TFL route over the border nowadays?
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Post by 15002 on Mar 5, 2018 22:21:05 GMT
I still don't understand why these areas (a lot of which are within the M25) are not under TFL control. Some areas are within the Oyster zone, are served even by the Underground. If LT routes could cross county boundaries before, why is it such a feat to get a TFL route over the border nowadays? I’m fairly certain it’s just due to the lack of funding from the councils that are out of London, like the 167 when it used to go to Debden before and it no longer received fundings from Essex therefore had to stop running between Debden and Loughton.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 5, 2018 22:39:18 GMT
I still don't understand why these areas (a lot of which are within the M25) are not under TFL control. Some areas are within the Oyster zone, are served even by the Underground. If LT routes could cross county boundaries before, why is it such a feat to get a TFL route over the border nowadays? Money, politics, historical precedent, history, "unfair" competition, a Mayor who wants to only spend within Gtr London when the argument suits him, the fact that London has regulated buses whereas it is surrounded by deregulated areas. Trying to apply any sort of logic to the situation is a waste of time. It doesn't matter where you draw the line, for someone it will always be in the wrong place. Several places fought very hard to avoid being subsumed administratively into Greater London and they, in some respects, have a paid for a price for their "freedom". However I am sure there will be many in those areas who see no and want no affinity with "London". They will prefer to see themselves as a part of a shire county instead. These are the same people who moan at the possibility that "evil" TfL may run their trains. There is no ideal way to set administrative boundaries. There are always journeys that cross such boundaries and which cause issues - even when all buses were regulated there were still many issues about how far they ran into Greater London, on what basis and the extent to which they were "recognised" by London Transport. There is a rather good little book that explores the histories of all of these "rogue" non LT services (including those that ran wholly in Gtr London). It is worth noting that some councils are in the process of forming " Transport for South East" which completely ignores council areas north of the Thames!! So even when people try to do something that might be vaguely sensible they get in wrong in terms of not properly recognising a wide regional travel area.
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Post by John tuthill on Mar 5, 2018 23:56:12 GMT
This era was before my time. But the legacy continued in some areas particularly west of London, with LT bus stop flags lasting until quite recently. You should go to one of the LT Country bus running days which recreate these networks. East Grinstead, Slough, Windsor, Crawley, Dorking, Guildford, Reigate, Sevenoaks, Dartford, Harlow, Hertford,ST Albans, Brentwood, Epping, Watford, High Wycombe, Amersham, Chesham, Stevenage, Stanies, Grays .. all these places were LT controlled give or take.
Of these, TfL flags still dominate Staines** , Epsom* and bizarrely Slough , even though only one TfL route (81) goes there. I presume Slough Council contract TfL to maintain the flags and print the different operators timetables. * After the Town Centre stops ** After the bus station Check out the LT Museum web page. There is a poster detailing the 'Green line' routes. I'll stand corrected but I think Forest Row was the furthest point south,nearer to Brighton than London.
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Post by planesandtrains on Mar 6, 2018 10:05:45 GMT
I still don't understand why these areas (a lot of which are within the M25) are not under TFL control. Some areas are within the Oyster zone, are served even by the Underground. If LT routes could cross county boundaries before, why is it such a feat to get a TFL route over the border nowadays? Money, politics, historical precedent, history, "unfair" competition, a Mayor who wants to only spend within Gtr London when the argument suits him, the fact that London has regulated buses whereas it is surrounded by deregulated areas. Trying to apply any sort of logic to the situation is a waste of time. It doesn't matter where you draw the line, for someone it will always be in the wrong place. Several places fought very hard to avoid being subsumed administratively into Greater London and they, in some respects, have a paid for a price for their "freedom". However I am sure there will be many in those areas who see no and want no affinity with "London". They will prefer to see themselves as a part of a shire county instead. These are the same people who moan at the possibility that "evil" TfL may run their trains. There is no ideal way to set administrative boundaries. There are always journeys that cross such boundaries and which cause issues - even when all buses were regulated there were still many issues about how far they ran into Greater London, on what basis and the extent to which they were "recognised" by London Transport. There is a rather good little book that explores the histories of all of these "rogue" non LT services (including those that ran wholly in Gtr London). It is worth noting that some councils are in the process of forming " Transport for South East" which completely ignores council areas north of the Thames!! So even when people try to do something that might be vaguely sensible they get in wrong in terms of not properly recognising a wide regional travel area. Typical England, create a body which has a reasonable chance of success and then completely screw it up. At least it is a fair border unlike the current mess we have. The only real sense of cooperation we have seen from the South is the Discovery Ticket which is quite limited away from the day ticket. You can't get weekly, monthly or annual passes.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 6, 2018 23:54:59 GMT
Green Line routes sometimes extended beyond the Country Area's own boundaries e.g. Tunbridge Wells was a Maidstone and District town, with incursions from Southdown from the Sussex direction, but Green Line had a depot down near TW West Station, from which they operated the 704 to Windsor. Brentwood was an example of no operator holding sway, with LT red and green buses, and Eastern National from the Chelmsford direction, but the most frequent route was the Green Line 721, every 10 minutes to Aldgate right up to London Country's creation in 1970. Anyone wanting specific info, I hold quite a bit in my head but also have access to reams of printed material, but placing my hands on it or finding the time to could take a while. I was working for LT central buses when the split came in 1970 but my staff pass allowed me travel on the green buses in perpetuity (well, as long as I continued to work for LT, anyway!)
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Post by busaholic on Mar 7, 2018 19:14:01 GMT
Off the top of my head, so dates may not be exact, but an Act of Parliament set up the London Public Transport Board (LPTB) in 1933 to control all public transport (other than trains) both within London and within a certain radius: a map of the area was incorporated into the Act, its furthest points in each direction being Baldock, Brentwood, East Grinstead and High Wycombe. Within this circle was another circle, known as the 'special area' and this was one where LPTB not only had the right to operate whatever routes it wanted but was able to permit or deny any other operator's routes. In some areas, particularly to the east of London, the 'special area' extended to the outer boundary. There were also provisions to extend LPTB services on certain corridors e.g. Sevenoaks to Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to Forest Row, Brentwood to Shenfield, High Wycombe to West Wycombe and Slough to Maidenhead being some that come to mind, though not all actually saw services. All buses/trolleybuses/trams operated by LPTB bore the legend London Transport, although the organisation of this name was not created until that marvellous year of 1948 which also saw creation of the NHS. The dividing line between green (country) and red (central) buses was not, as far as I know, a feature of the legislation, but was to be decided by the LPTB board, with its Chairman, Lord Ashfield, and Frank Pick prominent. This country bus set-up continued into L.T. days, the main exception being that Grays area routes were transferred from Eastern National to LT around 1952 (?) and lasted until the creation of London Country on 1st January 1970.
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Post by Dillon95 on Mar 10, 2018 1:37:06 GMT
This is a really interesting thread, I'm getting a real education here.
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Post by galwhv69 on Mar 10, 2018 16:19:17 GMT
This is a really interesting thread, I'm getting a real education here. I can probably get a GCSE if this was a school subject:-) But unfortunately it isn't...yet
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Post by RT3062 on Mar 10, 2018 16:50:37 GMT
Ive always found more interest in the green bus area. Mainly the huge variations in areas served and from picturesque to industrial. Terminal points of londons country buses is agood read.
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Post by Dillon95 on Mar 10, 2018 19:37:55 GMT
Ive always found more interest in the green bus area. Mainly the huge variations in areas served and from picturesque to industrial. Terminal points of londons country buses is agood read. I'm really interested in London buses that cross into the home counties, I have no idea why though.
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