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Post by wirewiper on Mar 11, 2018 11:33:13 GMT
Off the top of my head, so dates may not be exact, but an Act of Parliament set up the London Public Transport Board (LPTB) in 1933 to control all public transport (other than trains) both within London and within a certain radius: a map of the area was incorporated into the Act, its furthest points in each direction being Baldock, Brentwood, East Grinstead and High Wycombe. Within this circle was another circle, known as the 'special area' and this was one where LPTB not only had the right to operate whatever routes it wanted but was able to permit or deny any other operator's routes. In some areas, particularly to the east of London, the 'special area' extended to the outer boundary. There were also provisions to extend LPTB services on certain corridors e.g. Sevenoaks to Tunbridge Wells, East Grinstead to Forest Row, Brentwood to Shenfield, High Wycombe to West Wycombe and Slough to Maidenhead being some that come to mind, though not all actually saw services. All buses/trolleybuses/trams operated by LPTB bore the legend London Transport, although the organisation of this name was not created until that marvellous year of 1948 which also saw creation of the NHS. The dividing line between green (country) and red (central) buses was not, as far as I know, a feature of the legislation, but was to be decided by the LPTB board, with its Chairman, Lord Ashfield, and Frank Pick prominent. This country bus set-up continued into L.T. days, the main exception being that Grays area routes were transferred from Eastern National to LT around 1952 (?) and lasted until the creation of London Country on 1st January 1970. The LPTB bus operating area was devised after extensive negotiations with the neighbouring territorial operators: Maidstone & District, Southdown, Aldershot & District, Thames Valley and United Counties/Eastern Counties. The aim was to protect the London General Omnibus Company's acquisitions to the North and South of London, as well as the existing services of the territorial companies concerned, which is why the numerous anomalies existed (e.g. Green Line to Tunbridge Wells). Some services were split at the boundary, for example LPTB took over the Guildford-Dorking section of A&D's Aldershot-Dorking route 25, operating it as route 425 - LPTB tended not to favour joint services and avoided them where possible, although this relaxed somewhat in the 1960s with locations such as Slough and High Wycombe seeing both LPTB and TV operating joint cross-town services. Outside the "Special Area", at the outer boundary of LPTB operations, it was still possible for independent operators to continue successfully, hence their proliferation in locations such as Guildford and North-East Hertfordshire. The LPTB area only came into contact with one municipal operator, Luton Corporation Transport, and LPTB buses were not permitted to carry passengers for journeys entirely within the Borough of Luton - despite this, LPTB were able to maintain an operating garage in the town, largely thanks to the Green Line services to and from London. Coincidentally LCT was acquired by the National Bus Company just four days after the creation of London Country Bus Services, being incorporated into United Counties on 4th January 1970. With London Country and its territorial neighbours all under common National Bus Company ownership from 1970, it was possible to integrate services more meaningfully. For the first five years the new LCBS struggled with its inheritance, but turned itself round and in the second half of the decade was able to acquire new routes beyond its traditional operating area, especially to the West of London where it took over many routes from its struggling neighbour Alder Valley (the 1972 merger of Thames Valley and Aldershot & District). LCBS also benefited in the late 1970s by acquiring former London Transport red routes where these operated extensively outside Greater London, especially in the North West Surrey area - the County Council favoured LCBS as they were able to run subsidised services more cheaply.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 11, 2018 22:37:47 GMT
Ive always found more interest in the green bus area. Mainly the huge variations in areas served and from picturesque to industrial. Terminal points of londons country buses is agood read. I'm really interested in London buses that cross into the home counties, I have no idea why though. Me too, although it cost me my job with London Transport when my findings/costings, which as a trainee manager I had to produce at extremely short notice with no guidelines whatsoever, were poo-pooed by someone higher up, who no doubt was being leant on by a politician. Actually, I didn't lose my job, but I felt so frustrated I left what should have been my dream job.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Mar 13, 2018 10:49:09 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus.
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Post by RT3062 on Mar 13, 2018 11:02:24 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. 303 i think got to barnet at one time from hitchin
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Post by vjaska on Mar 13, 2018 11:11:30 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. IIRC, Croydon had a few routes from what I've seen in pics.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 13, 2018 11:12:09 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. Others will be able to quote chapter and verse but looking at my copy of the 1970 LT Bus Map (produced by Mike Harris) it looks like Belvedere, Upper Belvedere, Erith Thameside and Bexleyheath were the main points then. Seems a lot of the routes were designed to link to power stations and other industry on the shore of the Thames. Obviously things changed considerably later on but I'd be a little surprised if green buses stretched as far as Thamesmead as "commercial" services later in the LT era or post deregulation. I am sure someone will correct any error on my part.
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Post by danorak on Mar 13, 2018 15:37:14 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. Others will be able to quote chapter and verse but looking at my copy of the 1970 LT Bus Map (produced by Mike Harris) it looks like Belvedere, Upper Belvedere, Erith Thameside and Bexleyheath were the main points then. Seems a lot of the routes were designed to link to power stations and other industry on the shore of the Thames. Obviously things changed considerably later on but I'd be a little surprised if green buses stretched as far as Thamesmead as "commercial" services later in the LT era or post deregulation. I am sure someone will correct any error on my part. Certainly green buses made it as far as Thamesmead Town Centre until Bexleybus started - the 401 as is was a patchwork of London Country services (400,401,421,486 etc) right up to that point. I'm not quite sure how they were funded but they weren't tendered. The 493 (now R9) was an Orpington service. London Country wanted to run a Petts Wood - Green St Green service via Poverest Road in about 1984 but couldn't get the permissions (it eventually emerged as the 284, later R3). It all stems really from LT's former Central Bus area not being exactly the same as the subsequent GLC boundary - hence red buses in Loughton and Potters Bar.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 13, 2018 22:53:46 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. Others will be able to quote chapter and verse but looking at my copy of the 1970 LT Bus Map (produced by Mike Harris) it looks like Belvedere, Upper Belvedere, Erith Thameside and Bexleyheath were the main points then. Seems a lot of the routes were designed to link to power stations and other industry on the shore of the Thames. Obviously things changed considerably later on but I'd be a little surprised if green buses stretched as far as Thamesmead as "commercial" services later in the LT era or post deregulation. I am sure someone will correct any error on my part. The 480 reached Erith with its Routemasters from Denton, east of Gravesend, with a frequency of 15-20 minutes, the 303/A went through to New Barnet Station, the 310/A Enfield Town, the 406/a and 418 Kingston Station, numerous routes at West Croydon, with some through to Wallington Station (the 403) and Sutton etc (the 408 and 470), the 370 at Romford, the 402 and 410 at Bromley North, Sidcup Station the 467. Uxbridge had various, including the 321 all the way to Luton (wish I'd managed to do that!) Places that, perhaps surprisingly, had none included Hounslow, Edgware, Woodford. Thamesmead hardly existed in LT green bus days, so certainly had no services either.
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Post by sid on Mar 13, 2018 23:13:06 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. The 410 to Bromley North, the 408 and 470 Sutton and West Croydon via the current 407 route. Also terminating at West Croydon the 403,405,409,411 and 414.
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Post by wirewiper on Mar 14, 2018 10:14:21 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. Also don't forget the 402, also to Bromley North, and a considerable network of Country Bus routes in and around Orpington including the 477 which extended across the town to Chelsfield via today's R7 route. Today's Go-Coach route 431 has resurrected a route number that was once used in the area. Until tendering commenced in 1985, the 493 to Ramsden Estate had the unique distinction of being the only London Country bus route to operate entirely within the Greater London area.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 14, 2018 22:29:58 GMT
How far into London did the green (non-Green Line) buses go? I remember being London Country serving Thamesmead (the old 486?), which seemed pretty incongruous, and Erith was a hub for them into Kentish Bus days. I remember getting the old London Country 492 down North Cray Road for novelty's sake before those routes were subsumed into Bexleybus. Also don't forget the 402, also to Bromley North, and a considerable network of Country Bus routes in and around Orpington including the 477 which extended across the town to Chelsfield via today's R7 route. Today's Go-Coach route 431 has resurrected a route number that was once used in the area. Until tendering commenced in 1985, the 493 to Ramsden Estate had the unique distinction of being the only London Country bus route to operate entirely within the Greater London area. When I was living in Bromley in the late 1960s, the 410 also had many shorts from Bromley North to Biggin Hill, in fact two thirds of the service in M-F peaks, all within the London Borough of Bromley, the capital's largest borough. The 493 for a time was operated by RF opo buses in the week, but Routemasters (RMCs) on Sundays operating off the 477- Dunton Green operated no bus routes on a Sunday then, just Green Line.
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Mar 17, 2018 21:31:14 GMT
Others will be able to quote chapter and verse but looking at my copy of the 1970 LT Bus Map (produced by Mike Harris) it looks like Belvedere, Upper Belvedere, Erith Thameside and Bexleyheath were the main points then. Seems a lot of the routes were designed to link to power stations and other industry on the shore of the Thames. Obviously things changed considerably later on but I'd be a little surprised if green buses stretched as far as Thamesmead as "commercial" services later in the LT era or post deregulation. I am sure someone will correct any error on my part. The 480 reached Erith with its Routemasters from Denton, east of Gravesend, with a frequency of 15-20 minutes, the 303/A went through to New Barnet Station, the 310/A Enfield Town, the 406/a and 418 Kingston Station, numerous routes at West Croydon, with some through to Wallington Station (the 403) and Sutton etc (the 408 and 470), the 370 at Romford, the 402 and 410 at Bromley North, Sidcup Station the 467. Uxbridge had various, including the 321 all the way to Luton (wish I'd managed to do that!) Places that, perhaps surprisingly, had none included Hounslow, Edgware, Woodford. Thamesmead hardly existed in LT green bus days, so certainly had no services either.
Your mention of route 370 has reminded me of something. By 1982/83, all buses in Romford leaving Greater London into Essex were run by London Country or Eastern National, with all LT buses serving Romford confined to Greater London. Now, all bus routes in Romford are TfL-controlled including cross-boundary services.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 21:43:15 GMT
L&C ran a route 440 Kingston - Stanies (?) via 216 to Hampton White Hart then up Hampton High Street to Uxbridge Rd then via R70 to Nureseylands, Oak Ave, then via H25 to Feltham (Dairy Roundabout) then off to Stanies.
Commercial route from WY using midibuses.
Was really useful actually and in am schooldays had a SNB allocated
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 21:48:37 GMT
Heathrow was the other entry point ( 436,441,455/456)
Westlink took over some early am jnys on the 436 ( numbered 536) running to/from Stanies.
L&C had the SCC contracted Sunday version of the 216 at one point ( numbered 511)
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Post by busaholic on Mar 17, 2018 22:21:08 GMT
The 480 reached Erith with its Routemasters from Denton, east of Gravesend, with a frequency of 15-20 minutes, the 303/A went through to New Barnet Station, the 310/A Enfield Town, the 406/a and 418 Kingston Station, numerous routes at West Croydon, with some through to Wallington Station (the 403) and Sutton etc (the 408 and 470), the 370 at Romford, the 402 and 410 at Bromley North, Sidcup Station the 467. Uxbridge had various, including the 321 all the way to Luton (wish I'd managed to do that!) Places that, perhaps surprisingly, had none included Hounslow, Edgware, Woodford. Thamesmead hardly existed in LT green bus days, so certainly had no services either.
Your mention of route 370 has reminded me of something. By 1982/83, all buses in Romford leaving Greater London into Essex were run by London Country or Eastern National, with all LT buses serving Romford confined to Greater London. Now, all bus routes in Romford are TfL-controlled including cross-boundary services. From memory, so may not be 100%, but in 1970s there were two red bus routes to Brentwood, the 247 and the 287(?) both RT operated, the 175 to Passingford Bridge, which I believe had gone further out still at one stage, maybe Chipping Ongar, and the opo 250 to Epping Town, one of the first Central opo routes, RF operated. The Green Line 721 was super-frequent on the Romford-Brentwood corridor and the 370 terminated at Tilbury Ferry, the Lakeside Shopping Centre having not yet been thought of!
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