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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2018 4:03:12 GMT
Take note, TfL.   New York City subways have the worst on-time performance of any major rapid transit system in the world. This is the story of how the city ended up in a state of emergency. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 11, 2018 12:56:44 GMT
To be fair I don't think London's rail network is anywhere near the state that New York's subway is in. We have not had quite the same political nightmare for 25 years that New York has had. The entire governance structure between City, State and Federal Govts is beyond broken as that video clip hints at. I'd be tempted to say the structure in New York is corrupt. Clearly the Tube was in a similar condition in the early to mid 80s which culminated with the Kings Cross Fire in 1987 when the Tory government got the jitters over being blamed for the deaths and threw so much cash at LT it actually couldn't spend it fast enough.
Obviously there are warning signs in London but we actually have programmes in place to keep repairing tracks and trains. Fleets have been refurbed. The oldest signalling on the Sub Surface is being replaced now and that project is fully funded. We now Thales can deliver signalling upgrades. London doesn't have the cost overruns / inflated labour rates that afflict New York's projects. There isn't much evidence that I'm aware of that we have serious problems with extended journey times, crippling delays, continuous derailments of passenger trains, huge track fires etc. There are three key tests really - fixing the Central Line fleet, keeping the Bakerloo Line operable and actually starting the Picc Line upgrade by actually ordering new trains and kicking off the resignalling. I am sure there are other lurking issues but we will have to sink a very long way before we're in the same state as New York is in. I'm far from convinced that the politicians will be able to resolve their differences and find the money to fix the massive problems in New York. I think things will get much much worse before they get better. I feel for Andy Byford, ex LU and Toronto Transit Commission, who has taken on the reins at New York City Transport Authority. He's a decent chap but he's taken on a poisoned chalice.
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Post by busaholic on Mar 11, 2018 23:35:28 GMT
Take note, TfL. New York City subways have the worst on-time performance of any major rapid transit system in the world. This is the story of how the city ended up in a state of emergency. Interesting film - amazing to think London hired Bob Kiley from NY in the '90s to take charge of the Underground! But, much as we may like to compare New York and London, there is one very important difference I'd say: NY is not the capital! If some of the senators, congressmen and government officials were forced to use the NY subway on a daily basis, things could be mighty different. Also, running 24/7 might appeal to the American psyche but it's hardly going to take care of track and traction issues, for instance. Even 'pet projects' has an echo (for me) in the Northern Line extension to Battersea being progressed at a time when so many more pressing projects go nowhere or are put back by even more years. People having to leave jobs because of subway delays? Well, maybe not with the Tube, but has certainly been the case with Southern, with sackings as well. New Yorkers haven't been priced out of their capital to the same extent as Londoners, perhaps, but we certainly shouldn't be complacent about what could happen. The Elizabeth Line (when it opens) is not going to be the panacea to all current and future difficulties. |
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Post by joefrombow on Mar 12, 2018 2:44:56 GMT
I thought London Underground was bad 😯 did anyone watch the MTA video on signals after really amazing really how nearly 100 year old gear is still all working but shocking for such a big busy system how it hasn't been upgraded they still essentially use signal boxes youtu.be/Mjx3S3UjmnA |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 12, 2018 11:54:27 GMT
I thought London Underground was bad 😯 did anyone watch the MTA video on signals after really amazing really how nearly 100 year old gear is still all working but shocking for such a big busy system how it hasn't been upgraded they still essentially use signal boxes youtu.be/Mjx3S3UjmnANot much different to how a lot of the sub surface lines in London currently work. Edgware Rd signal cabin has kit that's not far off 100 years old. London has at least tried to made modest changes at its oldest signal cabins / control room to reduce the obsolescence risk. I can remember being told by people who knew that some signalling departments regularly scoured EBay and other places for certain electrical components and would buy as many as they could to keep old computers and other kit working. I suspect that remains true for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines now and will almost certainly be an issue on the Central Lines whose electronics will now be way out of date. Computerisation and automation is all very well and fine but the scale of technological progress and associated obsolescence will always affect railways and metros like the Tube. At some point the Victoria, Northern and Jubilee Lines will also be at risk but not yet. |
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Post by Alex on Mar 13, 2018 1:56:36 GMT
Not much different to how a lot of the sub surface lines in London currently work. Edgware Rd signal cabin has kit that's not far off 100 years old. London has at least tried to made modest changes at its oldest signal cabins / control room to reduce the obsolescence risk. I can remember being told by people who knew that some signalling departments regularly scoured EBay and other places for certain electrical components and would buy as many as they could to keep old computers and other kit working. I suspect that remains true for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines now and will almost certainly be an issue on the Central Lines whose electronics will now be way out of date. Computerisation and automation is all very well and fine but the scale of technological progress and associated obsolescence will always affect railways and metros like the Tube. At some point the Victoria, Northern and Jubilee Lines will also be at risk but not yet. Yes indeed, I also know of cases where spare parts have been procured by 'alternative' means including raiding items from the London Transport Museum for use on the working railway. Edgware Road cabin (as widely documented) is a particularly notable installation, I would suspect if a photo was taken of someone at work in 1926 when it opened, and a photo taken now, the main difference would be the signaller wouldn't have a handlebar moustache, a waistcoat and watch chain in one picture and would in the other! Out of all the traditional cabins left, the most 'modern' is Amersham which is practically unchanged from when it opened in around 1962 (to be honest most cabins haven't really changed a great deal)....... Though the Central line fixed block signalling is the oldest of the ATO type systems, in my (humble) opinion it delivers a better result than the Jubilee and Northern systems - LU upgrades have said that the Seltrac system is actually an older principle than you'd think (20 year old technology was the term I was told) and of course the whole SSR will be in the same boat as the Jubilee and Northern as it's new signalling is nearly the same system (the big difference being that track loops aren't being used on SSR). The Central line system does a better job clearing junctions faster and also can be more dynamic on speeds around station locations, I like it and again in my opinion traditional methods as fixed blocks actually work better in a 'easy principle, less to go wrong' way than the transmission based system that Thales have come up with - but this is the way LU are going. These systems as you say only have a certain lifespan - calling ThinLizzy here - am I right that in 30 years the DLR is on it's third signalling system already? With LU, if I had my way the SSR would be resignalled with new traditional colour light signalling with extra draw up signalling before platforms to boost the headway (as many lines were signalled before cuts in service in the 1970/1980s - some extraordinary TPH figures were achievable back then) with extra training to drivers to basically drive faster! Before I get shot down in flames I know this wouldn't happen but that's my 'wish list' outcome, especially as I know certain drivers are capable of exceeding ATO style performance (and being able to maintain this through an entire shift, day in day out), but we all need to be singing from the same sheet - which would take a long time and a lot of effort to make happen  |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Mar 13, 2018 6:58:17 GMT
DLR is on its 2nd signalling the system- the current signalling system was first introduced on the Beckton extension when that opened in 1994 (way before my time).
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Post by snoggle on Mar 13, 2018 10:51:39 GMT
With LU, if I had my way the SSR would be resignalled with new traditional colour light signalling with extra draw up signalling before platforms to boost the headway (as many lines were signalled before cuts in service in the 1970/1980s - some extraordinary TPH figures were achievable back then) with extra training to drivers to basically drive faster! Before I get shot down in flames I know this wouldn't happen but that's my 'wish list' outcome, especially as I know certain drivers are capable of exceeding ATO style performance (and being able to maintain this through an entire shift, day in day out), but we all need to be singing from the same sheet - which would take a long time and a lot of effort to make happen You must know that the old mega tph numbers on Underground lines were only achieved because the signalling overlaps were compromised and thus an accident waiting to happen. LU could never get away with deliberating designing something like that and putting it into service. Therefore the throughput is inevitably reduced in order to preserve safety - especially at conflicting junctions. I am sure you right that a minority of drivers could outperform ATO but what is the point when most drivers inevitably have variation in their driving capability and exhibit it every shift usually without knowing. When you get to very high tph you need to basically eliminate driver variability as a factor which is why computers do the job. Yep Seltrac is fairly old technology but that usually means it's tried and tested and reliable. The big issue with getting it on to LU was that LU has different operating principles to other railways so it had to be adapted to cope with LU's way of doing things. That's why (amongst other reasons) the Jubilee Line installation was a nightmare and the subsequent installation on the Northern Line was a relative breeze. There weren't "conversion" issues on DLR because DLR was a new idea and could be designed around what the signalling system could do best although I suspect DLR's huge expansion and complexity at some junctions has been a bit of a challenge in the past. I am waiting to see how well the new SSR signalling actually copes and especially how trains get across the "transition" points seamlessly. I assume Edgware Road is in the first phase to be switched on so that's a test in and of itself given a problem there can affect several routes very quickly if trains start to block back on the approaches. |
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Post by Alex on Mar 13, 2018 11:43:33 GMT
You must know that the old mega tph numbers on Underground lines were only achieved because the signalling overlaps were compromised and thus an accident waiting to happen. LU could never get away with deliberating designing something like that and putting it into service. Therefore the throughput is inevitably reduced in order to preserve safety - especially at conflicting junctions. I am sure you right that a minority of drivers could outperform ATO but what is the point when most drivers inevitably have variation in their driving capability and exhibit it every shift usually without knowing. When you get to very high tph you need to basically eliminate driver variability as a factor which is why computers do the job. Yep Seltrac is fairly old technology but that usually means it's tried and tested and reliable. The big issue with getting it on to LU was that LU has different operating principles to other railways so it had to be adapted to cope with LU's way of doing things. That's why (amongst other reasons) the Jubilee Line installation was a nightmare and the subsequent installation on the Northern Line was a relative breeze. There weren't "conversion" issues on DLR because DLR was a new idea and could be designed around what the signalling system could do best although I suspect DLR's huge expansion and complexity at some junctions has been a bit of a challenge in the past. I am waiting to see how well the new SSR signalling actually copes and especially how trains get across the "transition" points seamlessly. I assume Edgware Road is in the first phase to be switched on so that's a test in and of itself given a problem there can affect several routes very quickly if trains start to block back on the approaches. Agree with all of that - I knew a long since retired chap who was on the Picc line during the 1970s and yes the multi-home signalling sounds extreme in the least! Especially when he says that they way drivers were trained in those days was to keep an eye on the tail lights of the train in front and drive towards the red signals with them clearing on approach  Add to this things like Moorgate style protection not existing - I was told it was normal to come into a terminal platform like Uxbridge at around 35 mph! Mind you, Seltrac seems to want to this into Hammersmith platform 2 (and towards the wall at the end)...... You are right that it is only a minority of drivers who are capable of keeping up with/outperforming ATO - there are a few characters (though again a very small number) who never use ATO mode on the Central and Northern lines and hold their own doing the job themselves. The line controllers know their voices so leave these drivers alone if they query why ATO isn't being used on the train radio. However I would agree that while these members of staff can demonstrate this, everybody else demonstrates an extremely variable approach which you can't have. At present you could have the fastest drivers on the railway following each other - all you need is one slow driver at/near the front of the queue and the high performance is gone for everyone. Edgware Road is (on paper) on the third bit to transfer over to Seltrac. First bit Hammersmith - Latimer Road, second bit Latimer Road - Paddington Sub, third bit Paddington Sub/Circle and Finchley Road to Euston Square. We will see if the switchover dates happen as planned though! Thanks to ThinLizzy for the DLR query, didn't realise the system was from 1994 - for the age it's holding up well (or did when I used the DLR regularly).......  |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Mar 13, 2018 16:34:55 GMT
You must know that the old mega tph numbers on Underground lines were only achieved because the signalling overlaps were compromised and thus an accident waiting to happen. LU could never get away with deliberating designing something like that and putting it into service. Therefore the throughput is inevitably reduced in order to preserve safety - especially at conflicting junctions. I am sure you right that a minority of drivers could outperform ATO but what is the point when most drivers inevitably have variation in their driving capability and exhibit it every shift usually without knowing. When you get to very high tph you need to basically eliminate driver variability as a factor which is why computers do the job. Yep Seltrac is fairly old technology but that usually means it's tried and tested and reliable. The big issue with getting it on to LU was that LU has different operating principles to other railways so it had to be adapted to cope with LU's way of doing things. That's why (amongst other reasons) the Jubilee Line installation was a nightmare and the subsequent installation on the Northern Line was a relative breeze. There weren't "conversion" issues on DLR because DLR was a new idea and could be designed around what the signalling system could do best although I suspect DLR's huge expansion and complexity at some junctions has been a bit of a challenge in the past. I am waiting to see how well the new SSR signalling actually copes and especially how trains get across the "transition" points seamlessly. I assume Edgware Road is in the first phase to be switched on so that's a test in and of itself given a problem there can affect several routes very quickly if trains start to block back on the approaches. Agree with all of that - I knew a long since retired chap who was on the Picc line during the 1970s and yes the multi-home signalling sounds extreme in the least! Especially when he says that they way drivers were trained in those days was to keep an eye on the tail lights of the train in front and drive towards the red signals with them clearing on approach Add to this things like Moorgate style protection not existing - I was told it was normal to come into a terminal platform like Uxbridge at around 35 mph! Mind you, Seltrac seems to want to this into Hammersmith platform 2 (and towards the wall at the end)...... You are right that it is only a minority of drivers who are capable of keeping up with/outperforming ATO - there are a few characters (though again a very small number) who never use ATO mode on the Central and Northern lines and hold their own doing the job themselves. The line controllers know their voices so leave these drivers alone if they query why ATO isn't being used on the train radio. However I would agree that while these members of staff can demonstrate this, everybody else demonstrates an extremely variable approach which you can't have. At present you could have the fastest drivers on the railway following each other - all you need is one slow driver at/near the front of the queue and the high performance is gone for everyone. Edgware Road is (on paper) on the third bit to transfer over to Seltrac. First bit Hammersmith - Latimer Road, second bit Latimer Road - Paddington Sub, third bit Paddington Sub/Circle and Finchley Road to Euston Square. We will see if the switchover dates happen as planned though! Thanks to ThinLizzy for the DLR query, didn't realise the system was from 1994 - for the age it's holding up well (or did when I used the DLR regularly)....... The system has had a few software/ hardware updates and expanded sonewhabut it's essentially the same system that was introduced in the 90s. Like any software based thing, the signalling system does have it's moments, particularly after an update, but it does hold up well. One of the interesting parts of the new system being introduced on the SSL is the use of beacons rather than an inductive loop wired system |
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Post by joefrombow on Mar 15, 2018 6:46:06 GMT
Agree with all of that - I knew a long since retired chap who was on the Picc line during the 1970s and yes the multi-home signalling sounds extreme in the least! Especially when he says that they way drivers were trained in those days was to keep an eye on the tail lights of the train in front and drive towards the red signals with them clearing on approach Add to this things like Moorgate style protection not existing - I was told it was normal to come into a terminal platform like Uxbridge at around 35 mph! Mind you, Seltrac seems to want to this into Hammersmith platform 2 (and towards the wall at the end)...... You are right that it is only a minority of drivers who are capable of keeping up with/outperforming ATO - there are a few characters (though again a very small number) who never use ATO mode on the Central and Northern lines and hold their own doing the job themselves. The line controllers know their voices so leave these drivers alone if they query why ATO isn't being used on the train radio. However I would agree that while these members of staff can demonstrate this, everybody else demonstrates an extremely variable approach which you can't have. At present you could have the fastest drivers on the railway following each other - all you need is one slow driver at/near the front of the queue and the high performance is gone for everyone. Edgware Road is (on paper) on the third bit to transfer over to Seltrac. First bit Hammersmith - Latimer Road, second bit Latimer Road - Paddington Sub, third bit Paddington Sub/Circle and Finchley Road to Euston Square. We will see if the switchover dates happen as planned though! Thanks to ThinLizzy for the DLR query, didn't realise the system was from 1994 - for the age it's holding up well (or did when I used the DLR regularly)....... The system has had a few software/ hardware updates and expanded sonewhabut it's essentially the same system that was introduced in the 90s. Like any software based thing, the signalling system does have it's moments, particularly after an update, but it does hold up well. One of the interesting parts of the new system being introduced on the SSL is the use of beacons rather than an inductive loop wired system I seem to remember years ago in the 2000s it was quite a common occurrence for DLR trains to come into Stratford on the old platform 4 too fast and come to a abrupt halt for a few seconds and the PSA had to manually move the train into the station doesn't happen these days so yes upgrades seem to be working well , It's also interesting to see that Thameslink will be starting to use ATO this year on the main central section . |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Mar 15, 2018 7:33:36 GMT
The system has had a few software/ hardware updates and expanded sonewhabut it's essentially the same system that was introduced in the 90s. Like any software based thing, the signalling system does have it's moments, particularly after an update, but it does hold up well. One of the interesting parts of the new system being introduced on the SSL is the use of beacons rather than an inductive loop wired system I seem to remember years ago in the 2000s it was quite a common occurrence for DLR trains to come into Stratford on the old platform 4 too fast and come to a abrupt halt for a few seconds and the PSA had to manually move the train into the station doesn't happen these days so yes upgrades seem to be working well , It's also interesting to see that Thameslink will be starting to use ATO this year on the main central section . I can remember that well, the emergency brake application there would always catch me unaware and leave me stumbling into the windscreen or a passenger. |
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Add to this things like Moorgate style protection not existing - I was told it was normal to come into a terminal platform like Uxbridge at around 35 mph! Mind you, Seltrac seems to want to this into Hammersmith platform 2 (and towards the wall at the end)......