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Post by arrivaarriva on Apr 16, 2018 12:35:14 GMT
I was waiting at the Safari Cinema bus stop in Harrow yesterday afternoon. Along comes a 182 with 140 route branding. Ugly and confusing.
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Post by sid on Apr 16, 2018 13:07:41 GMT
I was waiting at the Safari Cinema bus stop in Harrow yesterday afternoon. Along comes a 182 with 140 route branding. Ugly and confusing. Obviously the idea is to keep the branded buses on the appropriate route or it's all rather pointless.
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Post by cl54 on Apr 16, 2018 13:13:45 GMT
Totally pointless if you're trying to promote routes that are every 15 or 20 minutes.
Whoever approved the layouts needs to go to Specsavers. Some of the type is almost unreadable.
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 16, 2018 15:24:49 GMT
I think route branding (especially with colour coding) only makes sense with smaller networks in a central area, consisting of only a limited number of routes are operated (e.g. Brighton & Hove, First Bristol). London's wide network covering all of Greater London makes it unsuitable.
If a route map can be made where each route (or group of associated routes) is distinguished and recognisable in a different colour - then branding makes sense.
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Post by busoccultation on Apr 16, 2018 15:48:28 GMT
I think route branding (especially with colour coding) only makes sense with smaller networks in a central area, consisting of only a limited number of routes are operated (e.g. Brighton & Hove, First Bristol). London's wide network covering all of Greater London makes it unsuitable. If a route map can be made where each route (or group of associated routes) is distinguished and recognisable in a different colour - then branding makes sense. I do agree with you that London's complex grid bus network makes it extremely difficult to colour code every single bus routes in London. Also the Barkingside branded routes all have 7 different colours for 7 different routes, so in my opinion as a local to all Barkingside routes it does make sense to apply branding to those routes.
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 16, 2018 16:56:42 GMT
I think route branding (especially with colour coding) only makes sense with smaller networks in a central area, consisting of only a limited number of routes are operated (e.g. Brighton & Hove, First Bristol). London's wide network covering all of Greater London makes it unsuitable. If a route map can be made where each route (or group of associated routes) is distinguished and recognisable in a different colour - then branding makes sense. I do agree with you that London's complex grid bus network makes it extremely difficult to colour code every single bus routes in London. Also the Barkingside branded routes all have 7 different colours for 7 different routes, so in my opinion as a local to all Barkingside routes it does make sense to apply branding to those routes. But this is mostly only local to those in Barkingside. Many passengers will have just one branded route in their area, with all other local routes without. Seems a bit inconsistent, with only selected areas having this scheme. Especially when neither Hayes or Barkingside are major town centres - such as scheme may just about make sense when centred on an area such as Harrow, Uxbridge, Kingston or Bexleyheath.
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 16, 2018 17:28:47 GMT
I do agree with you that London's complex grid bus network makes it extremely difficult to colour code every single bus routes in London. Also the Barkingside branded routes all have 7 different colours for 7 different routes, so in my opinion as a local to all Barkingside routes it does make sense to apply branding to those routes. But this is mostly only local to those in Barkingside. Many passengers will have just one branded route in their area, with all other local routes without. Seems a bit inconsistent, with only selected areas having this scheme. Especially when neither Hayes or Barkingside are major town centres - such as scheme may just about make sense when centred on an area such as Harrow, Uxbridge, Kingston or Bexleyheath. As the saying goes "you don't drive to Hayes, you drive through Hayes" If they had chosen Uxbridge, they could have colour coded the U bus routes for instance, plus the 607. they have to use a different font, for Pete's sake! White Johnston font screams bargain basement TfL to me
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Post by vjaska on Apr 16, 2018 18:43:21 GMT
I do agree with you that London's complex grid bus network makes it extremely difficult to colour code every single bus routes in London. Also the Barkingside branded routes all have 7 different colours for 7 different routes, so in my opinion as a local to all Barkingside routes it does make sense to apply branding to those routes. But this is mostly only local to those in Barkingside. Many passengers will have just one branded route in their area, with all other local routes without. Seems a bit inconsistent, with only selected areas having this scheme. Especially when neither Hayes or Barkingside are major town centres - such as scheme may just about make sense when centred on an area such as Harrow, Uxbridge, Kingston or Bexleyheath. Funnily enough, I mentioned before that somewhere like Uxbridge or Orpington would be a good place to try rather than Barkingside & Hayes as the U & R routes all serve the town so an appropriate brand would make sense. Each route could adopt a colour for 75% of the allocation and use a generic grey colour for unbranded vehicles which can stray across routes - these colours could then match the spider maps at stops. The branding in Hayes is an absolute joke whilst the Barkingside one, whilst not perfect, at least had some good aspects.
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Post by cl54 on Apr 16, 2018 19:39:43 GMT
There aren't enough colours to brand all the buses in London. There will be overlaps even if you use 7 or 8 colours for local schemes.
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 16, 2018 20:58:05 GMT
There aren't enough colours to brand all the buses in London. There will be overlaps even if you use 7 or 8 colours for local schemes. If they were all branded, the meaning would be lost... key routes like 388 to Westfield or routes that take people somewhere useful (surprised nothing has been done for 30 / 74 which pass Madame Tussauds, or 274 for London Zoo ) it was a nice attempt, as nice as it was seeing nearly new buses on the 195 with branding, it is only useful for locals who already know where the bus is going and don't read the writing on the side
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Post by vjaska on Apr 16, 2018 21:16:19 GMT
There aren't enough colours to brand all the buses in London. There will be overlaps even if you use 7 or 8 colours for local schemes. That’s not what I said at all - you don’t brand every route anyway just like networks like Crawley & Reading have a mix of non branded routes and branded ones.
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Post by busaholic on Apr 16, 2018 21:24:13 GMT
If, say, TfL chose to brand every route in Walthamstow, and also in Wood Green, would you have to incorporate both brandings into a route that connected those two places? That way lies madness or, even worse, choosing to shorten routes even further in order to avoid the problem.
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 16, 2018 21:29:45 GMT
I was waiting at the Safari Cinema bus stop in Harrow yesterday afternoon. Along comes a 182 with 140 route branding. Ugly and confusing. Obviously the idea is to keep the branded buses on the appropriate route or it's all rather pointless. It's been tried before. Does anyone know why it was dropped? I do remember seeing a RM branded for the 12, appearing on the 36. Maybe that's the answer, constraing particular buses to particular routes? ::)Photos from Ian Armstrongs bus route page Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by cl54 on Apr 16, 2018 22:00:07 GMT
Obviously the idea is to keep the branded buses on the appropriate route or it's all rather pointless. It's been tried before. Does anyone know why it was dropped? I do remember seeing a RM branded for the 12, appearing on the 36. Maybe that's the answer, constraing particular buses to particular routes? ::)Photos from Ian Armstrongs bus route page Several Central London RM routes had key points added to the side of the bus. Particularly aimed at tourists. Hard to work out if it generated extra passengers. The prime example of trying to highlight a route was Shoplinker in 1979. All the buses were painted red/yellow RMs with a flat fare of 30p. It was not successful. It linked Oxford Street and Knightsbridge. Not my photo. www.flickr.com/photos/23875695@N06/4650388986/
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Post by snoggle on Apr 16, 2018 22:09:50 GMT
If, say, TfL chose to brand every route in Walthamstow, and also in Wood Green, would you have to incorporate both brandings into a route that connected those two places? That way lies madness or, even worse, choosing to shorten routes even further in order to avoid the problem. No you wouldn't. If you do branding properly you ensure that there is a coherence in the branding where it links different areas. Alternatively you define your branding by service type - localised routes branded one way, trunk routes branded differently. Look at how NX West Midlands have done their most recent branding - good quality vehicles, express routes in one colour with a single brand, stopping / local routes in a different livery, common font to emphasise route numbers and daytime frequency offers. I've specifically picked on NXWM as it's clear that TfL have "nicked" some elements of their designs for parts of the Barkingside / Hayes branding. Stagecoach manage perfectly well with their branding on the 700 along the South Coast - it serves multiple centres with overlapping route sections. The marketing and publicity are easy to understand. Brighton and Hove manage to brand urban and inter-urban routes (e.g. the 12 / 29) in a common house style, base livery but with brand names for select routes like the 29. Again easy to understand. Nottingham CT tend to use colours for areas / corridors with this carried across to vehicles, maps, timetables and bus stop flags. The buses display frequency info in a smart house style. On the other hand Go North East and Trent Barton tend to use names for their routes alongside numbers (Trent sometimes don't have numbers). While I know Go North East's network going back decades it's still reasonably easy to get your head round. I also have few issues with Trent Barton's approach as it's smartly done with good publicity and a coherent approach. Despite having only used a couple of Trent Barton routes I could probably reel off a load of the route names with little difficulty just from a few vists to Derby / Nottingham. To answer the OP's original question - yes route branding can make sense if you do it properly in a defined network structure. TfL's approach is cheap and inappropriate because TfL's overall network is HUGE. I can see some merit in marketing a distinct network in somewhere like Orpington. Of course it *used* to be done exactly like that under the Roundabout name with separate livery and smart publicity. Alternatively London could, with some thought and money, pick out a selection of important trunk routes (radial and orbital) and brand them under a single distinct brand with upgraded vehicles, stop and website publicity etc. Routes like the 34, 345, 83, 85, 321, 86, 5 could fit that model. I've quite deliberately avoided radial services into zone 1 in that list as they tend to be very memorable routes anyway - largely by virtue of their routes numbers being lower than 100. I've not been to Hayes since the branding was launched but from photos the whole thing looks dreadful and just wrong given the tiny number of vehicles that have branding. The Barkingside scheme has effectively blended into the background for me because I see most of the routes fairly regularly. Only branded one I've not seen or snapped is the 247 but I already know where that runs and find it a useful service out of Romford to home via a change to the 275 at Fulwell Cross.
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