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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 8, 2018 12:28:22 GMT
The frequency will likely be 6bph throughout so one bus more then they feel. A nice compromise would be maybe 8 buses throughout.
With the Morrisons store supposedly shutting for a bit I would expect the 27 to move to the Camden Gardens stand.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 8, 2018 12:33:36 GMT
TfL have been reading the forum again. Goodbye C2, hello extended 88, goodbye link to Oxford Circus via Mornington Crescent / Hampstead Road. Oh and Ribbit, Ribbit Hopper ticket. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-c2-88/No mention of how much decline in patronage followed the C2's withdrawal from the Oxford Circus to Victoria section, Many passengers travelled from Gt Portland St southwest of Oxford Circus, also Camden to Vic often far quicker on a C2 than a 24.
What cr*p about a link between Piccadilly Circus and PHF. This existed for a few years post-trolleybus conversion, with the new 276 route at first , and then the 3/53 at various times iirc. If so vital, why the decades-long gap? TfL clutching at straws, which is what a dying man does: instead we have a dying Central London bus system. If so much patronage has been lost, where has it gone? New rail links:? Depopulation? No, much of it is self-inflicted, people lost to public transport.
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Post by jamirie on Aug 8, 2018 13:17:53 GMT
I had a long winded idea, if the C2 was considered for withdrawal. If stand space was available, reroute the 453 from Great Portland St Stn to Camden Town via the existing C2 routing. Reroute the 27 at Camden Town to Parliament Hill Fields, again via the existing C2 routing. Restructure route 18 as follows. Reduce the frequency from 15bph to 10 bph between Sudbury and Euston. Introduce a new route between Wembley Park and Oxford Circus via route 18 to Great Portland St Stn at 6bph, this creates a new link from the west and also retains a link from the Marylebone area to Oxford Circus.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 8, 2018 14:06:15 GMT
No mention of how much decline in patronage followed the C2's withdrawal from the Oxford Circus to Victoria section, Many passengers travelled from Gt Portland St southwest of Oxford Circus, also Camden to Vic often far quicker on a C2 than a 24.
What cr*p about a link between Piccadilly Circus and PHF. This existed for a few years post-trolleybus conversion, with the new 276 route at first , and then the 3/53 at various times iirc. If so vital, why the decades-long gap? TfL clutching at straws, which is what a dying man does: instead we have a dying Central London bus system. If so much patronage has been lost, where has it gone? New rail links:? Depopulation? No, much of it is self-inflicted, people lost to public transport. Organisations rarely, if ever, admit past decisions may have wrong. Yes the reference to the Picc Circus link is desperation but they have to say something even if it's b*ll*cks. It's a cut, anyone who reads the consultation will see this for what it is - a cut. TfL just aren't allowed to say it so they use portentous language instead. TfL won't care if people have diverted to the tube (some will have done as the Northern and Victoria have both been upgraded and are more reliable / frequent) or now ride a bike or even walk. This is all in line with wider policy initiatives so "all good" so far as TfL and the politicians are concerned. I think we are also seeing something new emerging which is the removal of entire routes. This also aligns to some other things I've heard about. TfL seem to be taking an approach to reduce the size of network administration (fewer contracts to retender, to manage / measure, less info to produce for bus stops / spider maps / online systems). By reducing the scale of the network you pull back other costs and need smaller IT / radio systems, less kit, fewer TfL and bus company employees etc). There is no policy that supports the bus system. I've just gone back and looked at the business plan numbers for buses.
| 2017/18 | 2018/19 | 2019/20 | 2020/21 | 2021/22 | 2022/23 | Bus fare revenue £000s | 1446 | 1468 | 1488 | 1516 | 1579 | 1645 | Contract costs £00s | -2090 | -2094 | -2092 | -2140 | -2210 | -2229 | Net revenue £m | -644 | -626 | -604 | -624 | -631 | -654 | Bus pass jnys (m) | 2230 | 2248 | 2255 | 2258 | 2282 | 2308 | Bus kms (m)
| 486 | 471 | 456 | 449 | 449 | 453 |
Now just look at those numbers. No real uplift in revenue until after 2020 when RPI increases are assumed to kick back in (this may change). Contract costs basically stand still or fall for three years - partly because of the big drop in bus KMs but also screwing down tender costs. If inflation were 2% per annum you'd expect to see these costs rise by about £40m-50m per year. The network mileage plateaus in the early 2020s and only in 2022 (4 years away) is there any network expansion. We are headed for a vastly smaller network with much less service volume on it and no increase. Even sillier is TfL's assumption that this much smaller network will be carrying 78m more pass jnys in 5-6 years time. It is worth noting that in the current budget TfL have already lopped 12m off that 2248 number for 2018/19 and recent numbers suggest they are not going to meet that either. At some point this becomes unsustainable - either for operators (all fleets will be smaller in future causing overhead issues), employees (wage rises? what wage rises?), for passengers (why use such a bad network?, why switch to a poor, declining service?). I am waiting for the first bus company to announce compulsory redundancies amongst bus drivers - that won't please Unite (Sadiq's best TU pals). To my mind the above policy may be responding to TfL's wider budgetary pressures but it is also deeply, deeply flawed and the assumption that people wil increase their usage of a vastly worse network is palpable nonsense.
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 8, 2018 14:35:19 GMT
The frequency will likely be 6bph throughout so one bus more then they feel. A nice compromise would be maybe 8 buses throughout. With the Morrisons store supposedly shutting for a bit I would expect the 27 to move to the Camden Gardens stand. Where would the 393 go? Perhaps it could share the 31's stand at Camden Town, due to the 31's frequency cut?
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 8, 2018 14:45:27 GMT
TfL have been reading the forum again. Goodbye C2, hello extended 88, goodbye link to Oxford Circus via Mornington Crescent / Hampstead Road. Oh and Ribbit, Ribbit Hopper ticket. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-c2-88/No mention of how much decline in patronage followed the C2's withdrawal from the Oxford Circus to Victoria section, Many passengers travelled from Gt Portland St southwest of Oxford Circus, also Camden to Vic often far quicker on a C2 than a 24.
What cr*p about a link between Piccadilly Circus and PHF. This existed for a few years post-trolleybus conversion, with the new 276 route at first , and then the 3/53 at various times iirc. If so vital, why the decades-long gap? TfL clutching at straws, which is what a dying man does: instead we have a dying Central London bus system. If so much patronage has been lost, where has it gone? New rail links:? Depopulation? No, much of it is self-inflicted, people lost to public transport.
I agree about how useful the C2 previously was. How about these proposals: Restore the C2 between Parliament Hill and Victoria. 22 could be diverted back to Piccadilly Circus or even Berkeley Square or Green Park. Or just have 2 routes via Mayfair. Extend the 29 or 91 from Trafalgar Square to Pimlico via the 24, or instead extend the 390 or 16 (or C2) from Victoria. Divert the 24 from Westminster to Clapham Common via the 88. 453 continues Great Portland Street to Westminster link (& 12/159 from Oxford Circus). 88 withdrawn, though route number could be used for the restored C2.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 8, 2018 15:11:29 GMT
The frequency will likely be 6bph throughout so one bus more then they feel. A nice compromise would be maybe 8 buses throughout. With the Morrisons store supposedly shutting for a bit I would expect the 27 to move to the Camden Gardens stand. I think what TfL will possibly do in terms of frequencies is this 88 - 7bph M-S peaks and daytimes, 5bph Suns and evenings, 4 bph daily late evenings, 2bph nights (currently 7.5bph and the C2 is 8 bph daytimes, 5 / 6 bph evenings and Sundays, 2/2 bph nights). TfL will aim to scale back the overall service level to slightly above the 5 bph demand level but not so severely as to "frighten the horses" (so to speak). If this is still deemed excessive they'll come back in 9-12 months and cut it back further. Believe me this proposal is very modest compared to some of the nonsense I've heard about.
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Post by DT 11 on Aug 8, 2018 15:16:18 GMT
I sent the link to my friend who works at QB he isn't surprised. He has done the C2 many times and said it is a pointless route. The withdrawal from Victoria was pretty much preparation to get rid of it completely.
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Post by DT 11 on Aug 8, 2018 15:22:27 GMT
TfL have been reading the forum again. Goodbye C2, hello extended 88, goodbye link to Oxford Circus via Mornington Crescent / Hampstead Road. Oh and Ribbit, Ribbit Hopper ticket. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-c2-88/Can't believe no-one suggested this one before! Oh wait... Interesting snippet in the section about Bus Stands. The Parliament Hill Fields stand will be used by route 88 instead of route C2, with similar buses at a very similar frequency. This would seem to rule out LTs, which are much longer than the existing C2 buses, so I guess a swap is on the cards. Perhaps with LTs going to the 87 as has been suggested before.
Can the 87 even take LTs?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 15:25:50 GMT
My concern with this proposal is that the 88 would become quite a long route. It already passes through congested corridors such as Regent Street and Whitehall, so extending it further could have an impact on the route's reliability. As the 27 is due to be cut back to Hammersmith, I think it *may* be a more suitable alternative to extend from Camden. I don’t think TfL will want to get in a pickle by introducing another proposal for the 27 at this time. They’ve changed their minds about the route the 440 will take in Chiswick (first to just miss out Fishers Lane and now go through Chiswick business park and stop at Turnham Green) which has made them look foolish IMO and also they’ve made an absolute mess of the 112 consultations. Not only are they still dawdling on the Crossrail consultation about it going to Osterley, but they still haven’t decided whether it should go down Madeley Road in Ealing... almost TWO years on. Not to say they won’t look at it in the near to medium future though.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 8, 2018 15:47:36 GMT
Well SW operated the 24 on its own and that ran to Hampstead Heath so it will probably stay all at SW. It's about 15 mins from Camden Town to PHF with maybe about 5 saved going via Albany Road.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 8, 2018 16:06:33 GMT
My concern with this proposal is that the 88 would become quite a long route. It already passes through congested corridors such as Regent Street and Whitehall, so extending it further could have an impact on the route's reliability. As the 27 is due to be cut back to Hammersmith, I think it *may* be a more suitable alternative to extend from Camden. I don’t think TfL will want to get in a pickle by introducing another proposal for the 27 at this time. They’ve changed their minds about the route the 440 will take in Chiswick (first to just miss out Fishers Lane and now go through Chiswick business park and stop at Turnham Green) which has made them look foolish IMO and also they’ve made an absolute mess of the 112 consultations. Not only are they still dawdling on the Crossrail consultation about it going to Osterley, but they still haven’t decided whether it should go down Madeley Road in Ealing... almost TWO years on. Not to say they won’t look at it in the near to medium future though. I think we can safely conclude the 112 won't be going down Madeley Road. There is local resistance to the plan and there's no money for the consequential highway changes on the A406. It's dead. I also suspect it won't be going to Osterley either. They'll extend something else. You say TfL have made themselves look foolish - not really. It could be entirely tactical in that making changes in apparently small "unco-ordinated" steps is much easier than launching one massive consultation which makes a route look like it is being attacked in three different places. That's guaranteed to generate more reaction so "little" consultations are likely to attract less opposition. Also the whole situation with funding and patronage is dynamic so it's inevitable that even 6 months later some things will have changed, most likely for the worse.
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Post by danorak on Aug 8, 2018 16:09:04 GMT
Can't believe no-one suggested this one before! Oh wait... Interesting snippet in the section about Bus Stands. The Parliament Hill Fields stand will be used by route 88 instead of route C2, with similar buses at a very similar frequency. This would seem to rule out LTs, which are much longer than the existing C2 buses, so I guess a swap is on the cards. Perhaps with LTs going to the 87 as has been suggested before.
Can the 87 even take LTs? Can't see why it couldn't, it seems to be all along main roads with no obvious restrictions.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 8, 2018 16:40:30 GMT
I'm going to be positive about this cut (forget consultation, it's a done deal) in that it releases the C2's stand off Regent Street to enable either the 3 or the 15 to be re-extended. If the 3 is not to be extended to Russell Square, as was promised by TfL in the Oxford Street/Crossrail plans, then it will allow them to save face by still nearly providing that link to Crossrail that was promised at TCR. Alternatively, a 15 starting in Regent Street could fill up well with people wanting to go to places between Charing Cross Station and St. Paul's churchyard, including many tourists in my experience: the opportunity to extend the so-called Heritage 15 to the scene of the main Year of the Bus event would exist too (there's space on stand for both with those headways),but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Post by COBO on Aug 8, 2018 16:41:25 GMT
They might as well just hire some of us.
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