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Post by TA1 on Nov 22, 2019 3:52:03 GMT
It's really terrible situations like this that absolutely justifies the use of platform barriers across the ENTIRE network like the ones used on the eastern part of the Jubilee Line. What's worse is that there was no crowd management at all at the time of the incident according to some tweets. The safety of commuters is paramount and why barriers haven't been installed is utterly shameful, especially in a city like London. Heck they don't even have to be 'sophisticated' like the Jubilee Line ones, it can be of partial height like the ones used on Line 1 of the Paris Metro to minimize cost. But in the grand scheme of things cost shouldn't be an excuse when it comes to the safety of the public. Heck it's easy installing them on new lines like the JLE,and their main purpose is draught management, quite a different matter trying to retrospectively fit them on existing platforms. If you've ever been to Stevenage there are two island platforms that can get crowded and trains hurtling through at over 100mph, that's a far more deserving case than anywhere on London Underground. Sorry to add my two-pence, I've become a reader more than a contributor nowadays, but The mention of Stevenage platforms is a non-comparison. If the fast platforms are crowded usually a train is stopping, when passengers alight from services of the slow platforms they might wander towards the fast platform but if they walk over the yellow line, platform staff do make PA announcements or I use my horn. I've never had a near miss passing through at line speed. Also due to the various different rolling stock serving Stevenage, PED's would be infeasible. The incident at Oxford Circus is obviously very sad and the injured party had a medical episode & was not pushed as a result of overcrowding FYI, but as the Underground is primarily Victorian infrastructure to retrofit and install PEDs to Lines would be astronomical and would TFL's budget already at a deficit I cannot see where that money will come from at this moment in time, that being said with more lines crossing over to automation and new rolling stock being sought, who knows whether TFL could possibly install PED's to all Zone 1 stations on lines that'll utilise the NTFL. There's only so many times you can ask passengers to remain behind the yellow line, In my Platform days I closed Finsbury Park National Rail as we were too overcrowded in a time of disruption. I've even had to decline a stop order on a short formed train in the peak because of the fact that 4 car 387 was heaving. - I don't think anybody is taking a dim view towards H&S. All Tube and Rail services in/out of London are oversubscribed as a result of the new housing developments popping up everywhere with the improvement of housing.
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Post by kenmet on Nov 22, 2019 7:38:47 GMT
Heck it's easy installing them on new lines like the JLE,and their main purpose is draught management, quite a different matter trying to retrospectively fit them on existing platforms. If you've ever been to Stevenage there are two island platforms that can get crowded and trains hurtling through at over 100mph, that's a far more deserving case than anywhere on London Underground. Sorry to add my two-pence, I've become a reader more than a contributor nowadays, but The mention of Stevenage platforms is a non-comparison. If the fast platforms are crowded usually a train is stopping, when passengers alight from services of the slow platforms they might wander towards the fast platform but if they walk over the yellow line, platform staff do make PA announcements or I use my horn. I've never had a near miss passing through at line speed. Also due to the various different rolling stock serving Stevenage, PED's would be infeasible. The incident at Oxford Circus is obviously very sad and the injured party had a medical episode & was not pushed as a result of overcrowding FYI, but as the Underground is primarily Victorian infrastructure to retrofit and install PEDs to Lines would be astronomical and would TFL's budget already at a deficit I cannot see where that money will come from at this moment in time, that being said with more lines crossing over to automation and new rolling stock being sought, who knows whether TFL could possibly install PED's to all Zone 1 stations on lines that'll utilise the NTFL. There's only so many times you can ask passengers to remain behind the yellow line, In my Platform days I closed Finsbury Park National Rail as we were too overcrowded in a time of disruption. I've even had to decline a stop order on a short formed train in the peak because of the fact that 4 car 387 was heaving. - I don't think anybody is taking a dim view towards H&S. All Tube and Rail services in/out of London are oversubscribed as a result of the new housing developments popping up everywhere with the improvement of housing. Stevenage is just one example on the NR network, I've certainly felt a little uneasy when I've been there at busy times, but as you've alluded to it's probably just not practical to install PEDs on much of the tube network and if they increase dwell times they will just make overcrowding worse. Crossrail should resolve the situation at Oxford Circus when it eventually opens but overcrowding on the tube in general is just a fact of life.
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Post by routew15 on Nov 22, 2019 8:01:17 GMT
draught management ? Can’t tell if you are being serious. Yep that's totally serious. The draughts in this case being to control air flows in the event of a fire, working with big fans in shafts near stations to assist this to work. The part whereby people couldn't fall onto the track was a nice byproduct Not so nice though when the trains went from six to seven cars and the PED doors all had to be moved...... EDIT: Seen this touched upon above, and back to buses...... Thank you for expanding on kenmet original point. The point you both make is clear to me now 👍
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Post by TA1 on Nov 22, 2019 8:15:40 GMT
Sorry to add my two-pence, I've become a reader more than a contributor nowadays, but The mention of Stevenage platforms is a non-comparison. If the fast platforms are crowded usually a train is stopping, when passengers alight from services of the slow platforms they might wander towards the fast platform but if they walk over the yellow line, platform staff do make PA announcements or I use my horn. I've never had a near miss passing through at line speed. Also due to the various different rolling stock serving Stevenage, PED's would be infeasible. The incident at Oxford Circus is obviously very sad and the injured party had a medical episode & was not pushed as a result of overcrowding FYI, but as the Underground is primarily Victorian infrastructure to retrofit and install PEDs to Lines would be astronomical and would TFL's budget already at a deficit I cannot see where that money will come from at this moment in time, that being said with more lines crossing over to automation and new rolling stock being sought, who knows whether TFL could possibly install PED's to all Zone 1 stations on lines that'll utilise the NTFL. There's only so many times you can ask passengers to remain behind the yellow line, In my Platform days I closed Finsbury Park National Rail as we were too overcrowded in a time of disruption. I've even had to decline a stop order on a short formed train in the peak because of the fact that 4 car 387 was heaving. - I don't think anybody is taking a dim view towards H&S. All Tube and Rail services in/out of London are oversubscribed as a result of the new housing developments popping up everywhere with the improvement of housing. Stevenage is just one example on the NR network, I've certainly felt a little uneasy when I've been there at busy times, but as you've alluded to it's probably just not practical to install PEDs on much of the tube network and if they increase dwell times they will just make overcrowding worse. Crossrail should resolve the situation at Oxford Circus when it eventually opens but overcrowding on the tube in general is just a fact of life. I understand your point about Stevenage, Just another couple points of reference there are some services in both the peaks that omit Stevenage on the slows, but again I've never seen passengers over the white platform edge line, but I have at Highbury & Islington, where a passenger kneeled over to pick up the bag as I was pulling in whilst driving a 313, so i dropped my Driver Safety Device Pedal (DSD) as I thought I struck the passenger in the middle of an evening peak. That was a poo experience, but they're the perils of the job. In my honest opinion when t he Elizabeth Line Crossrail opens all the additional capacity that it's supposed to relieve from the Central Line will be immediately swallowed up. It's a shame all these bus cuts are occurring in Central London, it's just leading to more people using other modes of transport or driving. I haven't used a bus in Zone 1 in over a year, I find it quicker to walk or jump on the tube.
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Post by evergreenadam on Nov 22, 2019 8:43:54 GMT
It's really terrible situations like this that absolutely justifies the use of platform barriers across the ENTIRE network like the ones used on the eastern part of the Jubilee Line. What's worse is that there was no crowd management at all at the time of the incident according to some tweets. The safety of commuters is paramount and why barriers haven't been installed is utterly shameful, especially in a city like London. Heck they don't even have to be 'sophisticated' like the Jubilee Line ones, it can be of partial height like the ones used on Line 1 of the Paris Metro to minimize cost. But in the grand scheme of things cost shouldn't be an excuse when it comes to the safety of the public. I don't know if it's an illusion, but when I used to use the Victoria Line many years ago, I had the feeling that the platforms seemed narrower than other lines? The Victoria Line was built on the cheap in the 1960s so the platforms are not generous especially at the likes of Oxford Circus and Victoria where one might have expected them to be. Plus it was never designed to handle the volume of passengers that 36tph in the peaks deliver to Central London stations.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 22, 2019 15:02:26 GMT
Heck it's easy installing them on new lines like the JLE,and their main purpose is draught management, quite a different matter trying to retrospectively fit them on existing platforms. If you've ever been to Stevenage there are two island platforms that can get crowded and trains hurtling through at over 100mph, that's a far more deserving case than anywhere on London Underground. Sorry to add my two-pence, I've become a reader more than a contributor nowadays, but The mention of Stevenage platforms is a non-comparison. If the fast platforms are crowded usually a train is stopping, when passengers alight from services of the slow platforms they might wander towards the fast platform but if they walk over the yellow line, platform staff do make PA announcements or I use my horn. I've never had a near miss passing through at line speed. Also due to the various different rolling stock serving Stevenage, PED's would be infeasible. The incident at Oxford Circus is obviously very sad and the injured party had a medical episode & was not pushed as a result of overcrowding FYI, but as the Underground is primarily Victorian infrastructure to retrofit and install PEDs to Lines would be astronomical and would TFL's budget already at a deficit I cannot see where that money will come from at this moment in time, that being said with more lines crossing over to automation and new rolling stock being sought, who knows whether TFL could possibly install PED's to all Zone 1 stations on lines that'll utilise the NTFL. There's only so many times you can ask passengers to remain behind the yellow line, In my Platform days I closed Finsbury Park National Rail as we were too overcrowded in a time of disruption. I've even had to decline a stop order on a short formed train in the peak because of the fact that 4 car 387 was heaving. - I don't think anybody is taking a dim view towards H&S. All Tube and Rail services in/out of London are oversubscribed as a result of the new housing developments popping up everywhere with the improvement of housing. The official TfL figures of 'incidents caused by congestion' on Underground lines rose every year from 138 in 2012 to 448 in 2016, though fell back a little in 2017. How an incident is defined I don't know. I can't find the figures at the moment, but I saw more up-to-date figures of hours of platform closure for reasons of overcrowding and Finsbury Park was top (by a long way), then Highbury and Islington, then another big gap before Oxford Circus, and these figures too had exploded over the last few years. All three stations host the Victoria Line, of course, which won't be a coincidence.
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Post by rif153 on Nov 22, 2019 21:18:30 GMT
For all the capacity upgrades that have gone on to major stations it is a bit of an oversight there hasn't been one at Oxford Circus yet. Of course its because Oxford Circus is integral to TfL's masterplan for the wider area with Crossrail and pedestrianisation, neither of which have materialsed, and neither will any time soon. This chronic overcrowding should not be allowed to continue for it is diabolical and of coure the platforms can easily be overcrowded to dangerous levels. I know that the staff can close the station or hold people back at the gateline, but really a longer term solution is needed.
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rml1969
Conductor
Adolescent & Youth Worker - OWR Driver
Posts: 69
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Post by rml1969 on Nov 23, 2019 3:39:24 GMT
I've added up my experiences of the recent bus changes, therefore I'd like to share. It will be appreciated to hear your own experiences and elaborate.
South East London:
53 - the route now only operates to County Hall with the commuters wishing to continue towards Whitehall from New Cross/Deptford only have the viable option to board a route 453. My personal experience for route 53 is that a useful and vital link has been destroyed. With significant loadings and pressure added on route 453.
171/172 - as above of my experiences for route 53, route 171 was a vital link to TCR. As now it runs to E&C, the usage and purpose of the route to exist with my opinion is much less than former. It would of been ideal if route 172 was extended to Catford Garage from Brockley Rise.
343/RV1 - I'm not regular commuter of this route as it takes the longer routing from New Cross to Aldgate, with it being much simpler to commute via route 78 from Peckham or Old Kent Road. The purpose of the extension to Aldgate was to replace the lost section of route RV1 from Tower Hall northbound. Route RV1 was a special route running along some touristic locations along the river Thames. I do certainly miss this route, although I can't see the withdrawal causing major issues.
40 - The 1st issue which instantly arises is Fenchurch Street, which now doesn't have a bus route running along it. As the northern terminus is Clerkenwell Green followed by route 63 from E&C northbound, with advantages to assist route 63, I feel that there are many more disadvantages.
North and West London:
205 - as it no longer serves Marylebone Station, which indeed reduces the duration of the journey, I personally supported this change. Marylebone station is a short walk from route 205
134 - as above, I did indeed support the curtailment to Warren Street. The traffic from TCR along Goodge Street is a real disaster at times which can be unpredictable.
East London:
48/55 - I heard surplus grievance from my associates about the total withdrawal of this route. Prior to the withdrawal commencing I gathered that Hackney council displayed agitation with major concerns that it would bring to commuters. As today from what the discussions it seems that it has settled down positively. Route 55 is struggling to cope during rush hour, with buses running half empty between 10 am - 3 PM at precise locations. My personal experience of the extension is that due to the damaged road structure in Walthamstow, the route is suffering with delays for a short section.
388 - TFL have played around with this route many times but recently the former route running to E&C was really handy for myself to connect with other routes running towards Camberwell and beyond. Regardless of that, I do support the route running to London Bridge to connect a direct link to Hackney (Ash Grove) for former route 48 commuters on route 55. This is difficult to say however I see the probability of route 48 making a return fairly soon.
Please share your experiences, noting that I have not mentioned some other routes which have had changes.
I wonder if we have future curtialments or withdrawals to come.
Regards
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Post by evergreenadam on Nov 23, 2019 17:50:47 GMT
For all the capacity upgrades that have gone on to major stations it is a bit of an oversight there hasn't been one at Oxford Circus yet. Of course its because Oxford Circus is integral to TfL's masterplan for the wider area with Crossrail and pedestrianisation, neither of which have materialsed, and neither will any time soon. This chronic overcrowding should not be allowed to continue for it is diabolical and of coure the platforms can easily be overcrowded to dangerous levels. I know that the staff can close the station or hold people back at the gateline, but really a longer term solution is needed. TfL don’t want to upgrade Oxford Circus but instead want to shift demand to Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road where Crossrail has resulted in station rebuilds. Those stations will have new entrances to double end them, which will eat into Oxford Circus’s catchment area from the east and west. Oxford Circus would be a nightmare to rebuild being only accessible by steps from the street and surrounded by some of the most expensive real estate in London. You would need property demolitions to create new street level entrance halls with lifts and escalators.
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Post by rif153 on Nov 23, 2019 17:56:01 GMT
For all the capacity upgrades that have gone on to major stations it is a bit of an oversight there hasn't been one at Oxford Circus yet. Of course its because Oxford Circus is integral to TfL's masterplan for the wider area with Crossrail and pedestrianisation, neither of which have materialsed, and neither will any time soon. This chronic overcrowding should not be allowed to continue for it is diabolical and of coure the platforms can easily be overcrowded to dangerous levels. I know that the staff can close the station or hold people back at the gateline, but really a longer term solution is needed. TfL don’t want to upgrade Oxford Circus but instead want to shift demand to Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road where Crossrail has resulted in station rebuilds. Those stations will have new entrances to double end them, which will eat into Oxford Circus’s catchment area from the east and west. Oxford Circus would be a nightmare to rebuild being only accessible by steps from the street and surrounded by some of the most expensive real estate in London. You would need property demolitions to create new street level entrance halls with lifts and escalators. That was my point. I was messaging another member of the forum recently and said to them that opening the Western entrance to Tottenham Court Road would really help matters to soak up passengers, but of course that won't happen until Crossrail opens. Then on the other side you have Bond Street and god knows when Bond Street Crossrail will open.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 23, 2019 18:11:33 GMT
Whilst it would break the change between Central/Bakerloo/Victoria lines but as a short term measure the Central line could not stop during the evening peak at Oxford Circus and make more use of the extra Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road new entrances.
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rml1969
Conductor
Adolescent & Youth Worker - OWR Driver
Posts: 69
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Post by rml1969 on Nov 30, 2019 2:52:26 GMT
Will the recent bus cuts be followed by more?
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Post by kenmet on Nov 30, 2019 8:12:01 GMT
Will the recent bus cuts be followed by more? None are planned as far as I'm aware but if bus usage continues to decline more would seem inevitable. I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment on the recent quite severe reduction on the 18. I can understand under utilised routes being reduced but the 18 always seems busy and it seems the reduction is purely a way of getting the 306 done cheaper?
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Post by snowman on Nov 30, 2019 9:47:59 GMT
Will the recent bus cuts be followed by more? None are planned as far as I'm aware but if bus usage continues to decline more would seem inevitable. I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment on the recent quite severe reduction on the 18. I can understand under utilised routes being reduced but the 18 always seems busy and it seems the reduction is purely a way of getting the 306 done cheaper? Politics tends to play a part in these things. Wait until after mayor election then depending on direction indicated by new mayor, things will happen. Inevitably if mayor thinks nearly £2m bus subsidy per day is not sustainable there will be cuts, but the PR spin machine will be selective and highlight only positive changes prior to election.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 30, 2019 12:49:47 GMT
Will the recent bus cuts be followed by more? Most likely and of course more cuts will merely exacerbate falling patronage further.
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