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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 7, 2018 15:15:01 GMT
Oh ok. I think that may have been around the time some routes were extended on Boxing day such as the 29 over the 329 and 37 over the 337.
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Post by busman on Nov 7, 2018 17:23:17 GMT
Back in the late 80’s/90’s there used to be some crazy one-off routes running on boxing day. I’m sure I even remember 82’s to North Finchley turning up in Ealing one year. I think I’ve asked before but to no avail, but I would love to see records of what boxing day routes ran each year during that period. They were truly the stuff of fantasy but unfortunately I never got to ride any of them due to being either too young or too busy blagging my way into pubs with my fake ID 🤣 I might be mistaken but I have vague recollection of a one off 86B route and Capital Citybus doing the 19 for the day. The one-off operators! I’d completely forgotten about that aspect. I wish I had recorded that information somewhere.
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Post by 15002 on Nov 7, 2018 17:31:36 GMT
I might be mistaken but I have vague recollection of a one off 86B route and Capital Citybus doing the 19 for the day. The one-off operators! I’d completely forgotten about that aspect. I wish I had recorded that information somewhere. They’ve still got it in certain days in Leicester where certain operators take over the usual company, usually on a Sunday.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 17:37:22 GMT
Back in the late 80’s/90’s there used to be some crazy one-off routes running on boxing day. I’m sure I even remember 82’s to North Finchley turning up in Ealing one year. I think I’ve asked before but to no avail, but I would love to see records of what boxing day routes ran each year during that period. They were truly the stuff of fantasy but unfortunately I never got to ride any of them due to being either too young or too busy blagging my way into pubs with my fake ID 🤣 I might be mistaken but I have vague recollection of a one off 86B route and Capital Citybus doing the 19 for the day. Capital Citybus also did the 277 one Boxing Day in the 90s.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 7, 2018 17:47:46 GMT
Call me a stick in the mud but I like the fact we have one day in the year where near enough everything is shut and people are either celebrating Christmas or doing their own thing should they wish to do so. People moan about so called empty bus routes running but then want to introduce a bus network of sorts on Christmas Day that will most likely be running half empty or worse. We are also assuming that those who don’t celebrate Christmas will want to automatically work - most people I know who don’t celebrate Christmas including my best friend would certainly not be interested in working.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 7, 2018 21:22:47 GMT
Call me a stick in the mud but I like the fact we have one day in the year where near enough everything is shut and people are either celebrating Christmas or doing their own thing should they wish to do so. People moan about so called empty bus routes running but then want to introduce a bus network of sorts on Christmas Day that will most likely be running half empty or worse. We are also assuming that those who don’t celebrate Christmas will want to automatically work - most people I know who don’t celebrate Christmas including my best friend would certainly not be interested in working. I like that too, but I think you're overlooking the fact that many people do some travelling on Christmas Day, particularly in the morning, often quite long distances; thank goodness there are petrol stations open, and motorway service areas! When some bus services operated in London on Christmas Day, they were provided in the main for people wishing to celebrate with their family or friends on the day who probably didn't have their own transport. Taxis and minicabs were either non-existent or vastly expensive in many areas, with the prevailing ethos of 'I don't go to the other side of the River, there be dragons'. There was also a lot of guilt about hospital patients and isolated elderly people being left to fester on Christmas Day, so the ethos was that limited bus services should be provided until the late afternoon period. I don't agree that there wouldn't be many drivers willing to work on Christmas Day - there are so many in London not from the Christian tradition, or from Christian countries where Christmas Day itself has never had the same significance. The only way to discover the truth of it would be, prior to any decision being made to introduce buses on this day, to ask for volunteers (in principle): I'm sure working would have to be on a genuinely voluntary basis. I can't imagine more than 5% of London's bus fleet would be required to work these limited services, maybe nowhere near that figure.
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Post by joefrombow on Nov 7, 2018 21:31:40 GMT
Call me a stick in the mud but I like the fact we have one day in the year where near enough everything is shut and people are either celebrating Christmas or doing their own thing should they wish to do so. People moan about so called empty bus routes running but then want to introduce a bus network of sorts on Christmas Day that will most likely be running half empty or worse. We are also assuming that those who don’t celebrate Christmas will want to automatically work - most people I know who don’t celebrate Christmas including my best friend would certainly not be interested in working. I Agree I'd go as far to say Boxing Day should be a day of rest aswell too (As it is in Most of the Country ) with just a select few routes running kind of takes away the "Christmassy" feeling that it's just now another Bank holiday in London .
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Post by paulsw2 on Nov 7, 2018 21:57:55 GMT
Call me a stick in the mud but I like the fact we have one day in the year where near enough everything is shut and people are either celebrating Christmas or doing their own thing should they wish to do so. People moan about so called empty bus routes running but then want to introduce a bus network of sorts on Christmas Day that will most likely be running half empty or worse. We are also assuming that those who don’t celebrate Christmas will want to automatically work - most people I know who don’t celebrate Christmas including my best friend would certainly not be interested in working. I like that too, but I think you're overlooking the fact that many people do some travelling on Christmas Day, particularly in the morning, often quite long distances; thank goodness there are petrol stations open, and motorway service areas! When some bus services operated in London on Christmas Day, they were provided in the main for people wishing to celebrate with their family or friends on the day who probably didn't have their own transport. Taxis and minicabs were either non-existent or vastly expensive in many areas, with the prevailing ethos of 'I don't go to the other side of the River, there be dragons'. There was also a lot of guilt about hospital patients and isolated elderly people being left to fester on Christmas Day, so the ethos was that limited bus services should be provided until the late afternoon period. I don't agree that there wouldn't be many drivers willing to work on Christmas Day - there are so many in London not from the Christian tradition, or from Christian countries where Christmas Day itself has never had the same significance. The only way to discover the truth of it would be, prior to any decision being made to introduce buses on this day, to ask for volunteers (in principle): I'm sure working would have to be on a genuinely voluntary basis. I can't imagine more than 5% of London's bus fleet would be required to work these limited services, maybe nowhere near that figure. A few years ago Stagecoach GAL (London Central) amongst others operated Christmas day Commercial services they were not a commercial success (no longer operating) it is all well saying "volunteer" working but I for one think that it would be the "thin side of the wedge" when it would eventually transpire that whilst everyone else is tucking into their Christmas Dinner transportation operatives would be forced to work. Use Uber on this day (if any are working)
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Post by busaholic on Nov 7, 2018 23:17:25 GMT
I like that too, but I think you're overlooking the fact that many people do some travelling on Christmas Day, particularly in the morning, often quite long distances; thank goodness there are petrol stations open, and motorway service areas! When some bus services operated in London on Christmas Day, they were provided in the main for people wishing to celebrate with their family or friends on the day who probably didn't have their own transport. Taxis and minicabs were either non-existent or vastly expensive in many areas, with the prevailing ethos of 'I don't go to the other side of the River, there be dragons'. There was also a lot of guilt about hospital patients and isolated elderly people being left to fester on Christmas Day, so the ethos was that limited bus services should be provided until the late afternoon period. I don't agree that there wouldn't be many drivers willing to work on Christmas Day - there are so many in London not from the Christian tradition, or from Christian countries where Christmas Day itself has never had the same significance. The only way to discover the truth of it would be, prior to any decision being made to introduce buses on this day, to ask for volunteers (in principle): I'm sure working would have to be on a genuinely voluntary basis. I can't imagine more than 5% of London's bus fleet would be required to work these limited services, maybe nowhere near that figure. A few years ago Stagecoach GAL (London Central) amongst others operated Christmas day Commercial services they were not a commercial success (no longer operating) it is all well saying "volunteer" working but I for one think that it would be the "thin side of the wedge" when it would eventually transpire that whilst everyone else is tucking into their Christmas Dinner transportation operatives would be forced to work. Use Uber on this day (if any are working) A few years ago when this subject came up on a transport forum with a different host, there were quite a lot of transport staff (more rail than bus, admittedly) who said they were perfectly willing to work on Christmas Day. i don't think all of them were contemplating oodles of cash: some said they were single, lonely and hated Christmas, and would jump at the chance to work. I had a job once which required me to work until 2 a.m. on four consecutive nights over Christmas, whereas a divorced colleague who'd been a soldier in Northern Ireland wasn't required to work, and he felt suicidal at facing Christmas alone. We tried to arrange a duty shift, but management were having none of it. He probably got his wish, because for the only time in my life I walked out of the job on the 22nd December!
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Post by redbus on Nov 8, 2018 0:12:56 GMT
I still have a LT red book of Christmas Services from the late 1970s, when buses used to run on Christmas Day. Most services were radial routes running into town, with little in many of the suburbs. It was based on reduced and shortened Sunday services, although remember then many routes had Sunday extensions. Taking sid 's example of the 2 and 13, the 2b (largely today's 2) ran from Crystal Palace, Norwood up to Victoria and then as today's route 13 to Golders Green. There was no service north of Golders Green. I remember seeing many a person waiting at stops in Temple Fortune when buses only went as far as Golders Green. This was effectively a shortened version of the 2b Sunday service which went from Crystal Palace to North Finchley. The buses on the 2b (and many other routes) were actually pretty busy (surprisingly so) , but there was no service from about 3:30 pm in the afternoon.
Today you would need to start again. By all means take the night service or the old Christmas Day service as your starting point, but you would really need to try and anticipate what demand would be and then try and cater for it. Also bear in mind there is actually quite a bit of traffic on Christmas Day, and the centre of London can actually get quite congested. Perhaps a bus / tube service might reduce that congestion as people would not be forced to take their cars.
I certainly like the idea of Christmas Day as a quiet day, with most shops closed, indeed Boxing Day should be like that! Notwithstanding this people should be able to get around, not for the fun of it or to go shopping, etc, but perhaps as means to get to their friends / relatives for a Christmas lunch for example.
As snoggle says, in the current financial climate it will remain a fantasy!
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Post by sid on Nov 8, 2018 11:07:56 GMT
I still have a LT red book of Christmas Services from the late 1970s, when buses used to run on Christmas Day. Most services were radial routes running into town, with little in many of the suburbs. It was based on reduced and shortened Sunday services, although remember then many routes had Sunday extensions. Taking sid 's example of the 2 and 13, the 2b (largely today's 2) ran from Crystal Palace, Norwood up to Victoria and then as today's route 13 to Golders Green. There was no service north of Golders Green. I remember seeing many a person waiting at stops in Temple Fortune when buses only went as far as Golders Green. This was effectively a shortened version of the 2b Sunday service which went from Crystal Palace to North Finchley. The buses on the 2b (and many other routes) were actually pretty busy (surprisingly so) , but there was no service from about 3:30 pm in the afternoon.
Today you would need to start again. By all means take the night service or the old Christmas Day service as your starting point, but you would really need to try and anticipate what demand would be and then try and cater for it. Also bear in mind there is actually quite a bit of traffic on Christmas Day, and the centre of London can actually get quite congested. Perhaps a bus / tube service might reduce that congestion as people would not be forced to take their cars.
I certainly like the idea of Christmas Day as a quiet day, with most shops closed, indeed Boxing Day should be like that! Notwithstanding this people should be able to get around, not for the fun of it or to go shopping, etc, but perhaps as means to get to their friends / relatives for a Christmas lunch for example.
As snoggle says, in the current financial climate it will remain a fantasy! As you say there is quite a bit of traffic on the road Christmas Day and it's not uncommon to see family groups walking often with kids and presents in a buggy, presumably they would be using buses if there were any? I've no doubt that there is a demand for some level of service on Christmas Day and far from being a fantasy I wonder how much longer TfL can ignore calls for some sort of service? By contrast the Boxing Day service is excessive in many areas and some savings could certainly be made there.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 8, 2018 16:00:43 GMT
A few years ago Stagecoach GAL (London Central) amongst others operated Christmas day Commercial services they were not a commercial success (no longer operating) it is all well saying "volunteer" working but I for one think that it would be the "thin side of the wedge" when it would eventually transpire that whilst everyone else is tucking into their Christmas Dinner transportation operatives would be forced to work. Use Uber on this day (if any are working) And by complete coincidence Malcolm Conway's Flickr stream has three snaps, on the first page, of some GAL buses working Xmas day services. www.flickr.com/photos/rm1422/
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Post by busaholic on Nov 8, 2018 21:17:45 GMT
I still have a LT red book of Christmas Services from the late 1970s, when buses used to run on Christmas Day. Most services were radial routes running into town, with little in many of the suburbs. It was based on reduced and shortened Sunday services, although remember then many routes had Sunday extensions. Taking sid 's example of the 2 and 13, the 2b (largely today's 2) ran from Crystal Palace, Norwood up to Victoria and then as today's route 13 to Golders Green. There was no service north of Golders Green. I remember seeing many a person waiting at stops in Temple Fortune when buses only went as far as Golders Green. This was effectively a shortened version of the 2b Sunday service which went from Crystal Palace to North Finchley. The buses on the 2b (and many other routes) were actually pretty busy (surprisingly so) , but there was no service from about 3:30 pm in the afternoon.
Today you would need to start again. By all means take the night service or the old Christmas Day service as your starting point, but you would really need to try and anticipate what demand would be and then try and cater for it. Also bear in mind there is actually quite a bit of traffic on Christmas Day, and the centre of London can actually get quite congested. Perhaps a bus / tube service might reduce that congestion as people would not be forced to take their cars.
I certainly like the idea of Christmas Day as a quiet day, with most shops closed, indeed Boxing Day should be like that! Notwithstanding this people should be able to get around, not for the fun of it or to go shopping, etc, but perhaps as means to get to their friends / relatives for a Christmas lunch for example.
As snoggle says, in the current financial climate it will remain a fantasy! Logically, it might only be a fantasy but for two things. First, the powers of the Mayor. I'm strongly against the whole concept of a Mayor, believing concentrating power in an individual to be the opposite of democracy, but the system is what it is. If Khan asks/tells TfL to investigate providing Christmas Day bus services (and I regard that as being quite possible within the next two years) they might mutter amongst themselves but a report will find its way to his desk. If he likes what he sees, he might decide to progress it further and, as seen with Boris Johnson, a petard based on prejudice and unrealistic promises can gain enough currency to go ahead almost regardless of cost. If necessary, something else (unspecified) will have to come out of the budget. The principle of Emperor's New Clothes will apply. Secondly, the assumption is being made that Christmas bus services will have to come (directly) from the public purse, whereas it's entirely possible that sponsorship could be found, either on the lines of New Year's Eve/Night Underground services a few years back or on an entirely different model. I would suggest that the bus companies earning their living from supplying bus services to TfL might well be asked to contribute something ('give back' in the terminology) and, once one agrees, it could be a domino effect, a bit like Tesco '[asking' its suppliers to contribute to a promotion. It might be technically illegal for a supermarket (but still happens) but I don't think it'd be illegal or unethical for TfL.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 9, 2018 0:01:09 GMT
Logically, it might only be a fantasy but for two things. First, the powers of the Mayor. I'm strongly against the whole concept of a Mayor, believing concentrating power in an individual to be the opposite of democracy, but the system is what it is. If Khan asks/tells TfL to investigate providing Christmas Day bus services (and I regard that as being quite possible within the next two years) they might mutter amongst themselves but a report will find its way to his desk. If he likes what he sees, he might decide to progress it further and, as seen with Boris Johnson, a petard based on prejudice and unrealistic promises can gain enough currency to go ahead almost regardless of cost. If necessary, something else (unspecified) will have to come out of the budget. The principle of Emperor's New Clothes will apply. Secondly, the assumption is being made that Christmas bus services will have to come (directly) from the public purse, whereas it's entirely possible that sponsorship could be found, either on the lines of New Year's Eve/Night Underground services a few years back or on an entirely different model. I would suggest that the bus companies earning their living from supplying bus services to TfL might well be asked to contribute something ('give back' in the terminology) and, once one agrees, it could be a domino effect, a bit like Tesco '[asking' its suppliers to contribute to a promotion. It might be technically illegal for a supermarket (but still happens) but I don't think it'd be illegal or unethical for TfL. Err one small flaw in that. A report on the possibility of Christmas Day bus services was commissioned within TfL 3-4 years ago. It took TfL nearly a year to come to some rather vague conclusions. It was clear that an awful lot more work was necessary to get both costs, revenue and benefits firmed up to something like the level TfL would need to be able to justify the expenditure. Indicative benefit / cost ratios were nowhere near the "pass mark". Since that time all the "old hands" at Surface Transport have gone and absolutely nothing has come forward from the Mayor, Assembly Members or TfL Board Members asking for that work to be progressed. There's no political momentum for Christmas Day bus services. There *is* for Boxing Day services on London Overground and TfL Rail / Crossrail but that's it. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdfFinances have worsened hugely since 2015 so there is zero prospect of this ever progressing in the current climate. TfL have struggled for the last five years to get sponsorship for New Year's Eve travel. I can see no reason why private businesses would sponsor Christmas Day buses given all the big shops are shut. The big bus groups don't even run buses late on Christmas Eve, on Boxing Day and even New Years Day in deregulation land so why on earth would those same groups "give something back" to TfL who are progressively reducing the size of their London businesses and reducing profits and turnover?? Can't see Go Ahead doing anything given what GAL's MD said recently about TfL's policies!
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Post by busaholic on Nov 9, 2018 0:17:10 GMT
Post aimed at members with a broad knowledge of the entire network as opposed to a local area.Scenario: London Mayor suddenly decides that TfL should provide a skeleton daytime bus service for Christmas Day 2019 Which routes should run? Whole route or part route? My idea is limited to a few suggestions including 207 operating Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge (no 427 or 607 and the 483 from Harrow terminating at Ealing Broadway. 260 operating East Acton to Willesden Garage only and the 226 operating between Cricklewood Broadway and Hangar Lane Station only if it operates at all. 18 operating from Baker Street Station to Wembley Triangle only 73 operating from Newington Green to Warren Street Station only 253 running same route as N253 38 operating from Victoria to Angel only 30 operating Baker Street Station to Hackney Central (my emphasis is on operating routes in a shortened form to avoid duplication) i'm pretty sure you're not going to get anyone willing to raise their head above the parapet on this one now: the sniper fire will cut them right down. Shame, I had got a couple of alternative lists, one a bit more extensive than the other, with my reasoning behind the choices, but despite the imminence of Armistice Day I wouldn't have been spared. We'll wait and see whether the Mayor or his acolytes progresses it in the future, in which case it might be worth revisiting, but until then....
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