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Post by vjaska on Nov 9, 2018 1:22:30 GMT
Post aimed at members with a broad knowledge of the entire network as opposed to a local area.Scenario: London Mayor suddenly decides that TfL should provide a skeleton daytime bus service for Christmas Day 2019 Which routes should run? Whole route or part route? My idea is limited to a few suggestions including 207 operating Shepherd's Bush to Uxbridge (no 427 or 607 and the 483 from Harrow terminating at Ealing Broadway. 260 operating East Acton to Willesden Garage only and the 226 operating between Cricklewood Broadway and Hangar Lane Station only if it operates at all. 18 operating from Baker Street Station to Wembley Triangle only 73 operating from Newington Green to Warren Street Station only 253 running same route as N253 38 operating from Victoria to Angel only 30 operating Baker Street Station to Hackney Central (my emphasis is on operating routes in a shortened form to avoid duplication) i'm pretty sure you're not going to get anyone willing to raise their head above the parapet on this one now: the sniper fire will cut them right down. Shame, I had got a couple of alternative lists, one a bit more extensive than the other, with my reasoning behind the choices, but despite the imminence of Armistice Day I wouldn't have been spared. We'll wait and see whether the Mayor or his acolytes progresses it in the future, in which case it might be worth revisiting, but until then.... No one has stopped anyone from suggesting ideas - me merely stating my dislike for a Christmas Day network doesn’t stop you or others from posting anything so I don’t understand the sniper fire comment? On a general point and moving away from the above, it seems certain topics on here have certain barriers towards certain people - take the LT topic where some people try to shut down negative opinions on the bus yet any other vehicle is fair game. Anyway rant over lol.
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Post by Red Dragon on Nov 9, 2018 8:01:32 GMT
i'm pretty sure you're not going to get anyone willing to raise their head above the parapet on this one now: the sniper fire will cut them right down. Shame, I had got a couple of alternative lists, one a bit more extensive than the other, with my reasoning behind the choices, but despite the imminence of Armistice Day I wouldn't have been spared. We'll wait and see whether the Mayor or his acolytes progresses it in the future, in which case it might be worth revisiting, but until then.... No one has stopped anyone from suggesting ideas - me merely stating my dislike for a Christmas Day network doesn’t stop you or others from posting anything so I don’t understand the sniper fire comment? On a general point and moving away from the above, it seems certain topics on here have certain barriers towards certain people - take the LT topic where some people try to shut down negative opinions on the bus yet any other vehicle is fair game. Anyway rant over lol. I really feel this forum is becoming really negative. New members are treated rather harshly, members are always making snide comments and no one seems to be able to agree to disagree. If we want this forum to continue to prosper, I think we all need to make an effort to be polite and welcoming.
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Post by sid on Nov 9, 2018 11:26:21 GMT
No one has stopped anyone from suggesting ideas - me merely stating my dislike for a Christmas Day network doesn’t stop you or others from posting anything so I don’t understand the sniper fire comment? On a general point and moving away from the above, it seems certain topics on here have certain barriers towards certain people - take the LT topic where some people try to shut down negative opinions on the bus yet any other vehicle is fair game. Anyway rant over lol. I really feel this forum is becoming really negative. New members are treated rather harshly, members are always making snide comments and no one seems to be able to agree to disagree. If we want this forum to continue to prosper, I think we all need to make an effort to be polite and welcoming. You make some very good points.
At least one person is determined to stifle any debate on Christmas Day bus services for reasons that I can't comprehend. Of course I understand that many staff will not like the prospect of having to work on Christmas Day but given that it would probably be less than 10% of buses actually running I wouldn't think there would be any problem getting enough volunteers. I doubt I'd ever use buses on Christmas Day but clearly some people would, seems bizarre that buses run on the Isle of Wight but not in London.
Just to clear up a point that has been made about LT's, whilst I think they're very nice buses if people wish to make constructive criticisms about them they are perfectly entitled to do so, what becomes rather tiresome is the repetitive silly comments about sweatboxes and such like. As you've alluded to the constant negativity whether it be about LT's or cuts in services, cyclists or whatever really doesn't do the forum any favours at all.
Getting back to the original subject, I've not drawn up any comprehensive list of potential Christmas Day services but if anybody has hopefully they will post it. Nobody should feel reluctant to post for fear of being lambasted.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 9, 2018 11:46:17 GMT
i'm pretty sure you're not going to get anyone willing to raise their head above the parapet on this one now: the sniper fire will cut them right down. Shame, I had got a couple of alternative lists, one a bit more extensive than the other, with my reasoning behind the choices, but despite the imminence of Armistice Day I wouldn't have been spared. We'll wait and see whether the Mayor or his acolytes progresses it in the future, in which case it might be worth revisiting, but until then.... No one has stopped anyone from suggesting ideas - me merely stating my dislike for a Christmas Day network doesn’t stop you or others from posting anything so I don’t understand the sniper fire comment? On a general point and moving away from the above, it seems certain topics on here have certain barriers towards certain people - take the LT topic where some people try to shut down negative opinions on the bus yet any other vehicle is fair game. Anyway rant over lol. I wasn't directing my post at you, either directly or indirectly. On the whole I find your contributions interesting and useful. I'm an opinionated person myself, and enjoy reading other's opinions, even if they don't accord with my own. In any case, I'm always willing to change my opinion when either the facts change or, on reflection, I'm swayed by others' arguments. Beware the person who never changes their mind, e.g. Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn and, above all, Donald Trump. The sniper fire comment is a more general one than specifically relating to this subject and I do agree with the sentiments expressed immediately below your post.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 9, 2018 11:50:25 GMT
I really feel this forum is becoming really negative. New members are treated rather harshly, members are always making snide comments and no one seems to be able to agree to disagree. If we want this forum to continue to prosper, I think we all need to make an effort to be polite and welcoming. You make some very good points.
At least one person is determined to stifle any debate on Christmas Day bus services for reasons that I can't comprehend. If that is some sort of obtuse reference to me all I did was point out the reality of what has already been done by TfL in response to a political request for a bus service. That is not attempting to stifle the debate at all. It is just injecting some facts. None of that stops anyone doing anything about fantasy route lists or anything else. If people don't like me or my replies then they should either DM me to express their concerns or else report me to the Forum's admins. I am big enough to cope with any consequences that flow from that.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 9, 2018 21:01:21 GMT
I really feel this forum is becoming really negative. New members are treated rather harshly, members are always making snide comments and no one seems to be able to agree to disagree. If we want this forum to continue to prosper, I think we all need to make an effort to be polite and welcoming. You make some very good points.
At least one person is determined to stifle any debate on Christmas Day bus services for reasons that I can't comprehend. Of course I understand that many staff will not like the prospect of having to work on Christmas Day but given that it would probably be less than 10% of buses actually running I wouldn't think there would be any problem getting enough volunteers. I doubt I'd ever use buses on Christmas Day but clearly some people would, seems bizarre that buses run on the Isle of Wight but not in London.
Just to clear up a point that has been made about LT's, whilst I think they're very nice buses if people wish to make constructive criticisms about them they are perfectly entitled to do so, what becomes rather tiresome is the repetitive silly comments about sweatboxes and such like. As you've alluded to the constant negativity whether it be about LT's or cuts in services, cyclists or whatever really doesn't do the forum any favours at all.
Getting back to the original subject, I've not drawn up any comprehensive list of potential Christmas Day services but if anybody has hopefully they will post it. Nobody should feel reluctant to post for fear of being lambasted.
Just to clear one thing up - I don't fear being lambasted! I just don't see the point of going to the effort (okay, not a great deal of sweat but I do give these things some thought, even analysis) if no-one's going to appreciate it/ cogitate over it/ even argue in detail over it. If it's all 'boring' or 'tedious', then no point. On the latter, I don't ever read posts on probably half, maybe two thirds, of the subjects because I neither have the knowledge or interest. On others, I may have some interest but feel I can't contribute anything, so I stay stumm. I wish others would not feel obliged to contribute on topics they claim not to be interested in, or perhaps they can't help themselves. More generally, as i approach my initial year on the forum (can't believe it's only that long!) I can see how a newby can be daunted posting, and be easily put off. This particularly comes over in anything which requires an opinion, rather than reporting bus no. 12345 operated on route 999 yesterday. There is an obvious pecking order, I'd say, which has probably evolved over the years and, probably in the main, suits those at the top of it, though I do see a jockeying for position at a level two or three strata below the 'top'. That's what a sociology degree does for you - I knew it'd come in useful one day.
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Post by sid on Nov 10, 2018 9:43:13 GMT
You make some very good points.
At least one person is determined to stifle any debate on Christmas Day bus services for reasons that I can't comprehend. Of course I understand that many staff will not like the prospect of having to work on Christmas Day but given that it would probably be less than 10% of buses actually running I wouldn't think there would be any problem getting enough volunteers. I doubt I'd ever use buses on Christmas Day but clearly some people would, seems bizarre that buses run on the Isle of Wight but not in London.
Just to clear up a point that has been made about LT's, whilst I think they're very nice buses if people wish to make constructive criticisms about them they are perfectly entitled to do so, what becomes rather tiresome is the repetitive silly comments about sweatboxes and such like. As you've alluded to the constant negativity whether it be about LT's or cuts in services, cyclists or whatever really doesn't do the forum any favours at all.
Getting back to the original subject, I've not drawn up any comprehensive list of potential Christmas Day services but if anybody has hopefully they will post it. Nobody should feel reluctant to post for fear of being lambasted.
Just to clear one thing up - I don't fear being lambasted! I just don't see the point of going to the effort (okay, not a great deal of sweat but I do give these things some thought, even analysis) if no-one's going to appreciate it/ cogitate over it/ even argue in detail over it. If it's all 'boring' or 'tedious', then no point. On the latter, I don't ever read posts on probably half, maybe two thirds, of the subjects because I neither have the knowledge or interest. On others, I may have some interest but feel I can't contribute anything, so I stay stumm. I wish others would not feel obliged to contribute on topics they claim not to be interested in, or perhaps they can't help themselves. More generally, as i approach my initial year on the forum (can't believe it's only that long!) I can see how a newby can be daunted posting, and be easily put off. This particularly comes over in anything which requires an opinion, rather than reporting bus no. 12345 operated on route 999 yesterday. There is an obvious pecking order, I'd say, which has probably evolved over the years and, probably in the main, suits those at the top of it, though I do see a jockeying for position at a level two or three strata below the 'top'. That's what a sociology degree does for you - I knew it'd come in useful one day. Yes I understand what you're saying, I don't think there should be any sort of pecking order on here, all opinions should be equally valid, but I suppose showing the numbers of postings everyone has made does rather encourage that mindset. If anyone feels something inappropriate has been posted report it to admin. I have to say that I think a bit more enforcement of rules 2 and 3 wouldn't go amiss either. tangytango.proboards.com/thread/1736/forum-charterAnyway getting back on topic I would suggest that a diluted version of the night bus network would be a good starting point with a few amendments. Run the 36 from Queens Park to Grove Park for example and I think the big hospitals all deserve some sort of service.
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Post by busaholic on Nov 10, 2018 15:10:30 GMT
Just to clear one thing up - I don't fear being lambasted! I just don't see the point of going to the effort (okay, not a great deal of sweat but I do give these things some thought, even analysis) if no-one's going to appreciate it/ cogitate over it/ even argue in detail over it. If it's all 'boring' or 'tedious', then no point. On the latter, I don't ever read posts on probably half, maybe two thirds, of the subjects because I neither have the knowledge or interest. On others, I may have some interest but feel I can't contribute anything, so I stay stumm. I wish others would not feel obliged to contribute on topics they claim not to be interested in, or perhaps they can't help themselves. More generally, as i approach my initial year on the forum (can't believe it's only that long!) I can see how a newby can be daunted posting, and be easily put off. This particularly comes over in anything which requires an opinion, rather than reporting bus no. 12345 operated on route 999 yesterday. There is an obvious pecking order, I'd say, which has probably evolved over the years and, probably in the main, suits those at the top of it, though I do see a jockeying for position at a level two or three strata below the 'top'. That's what a sociology degree does for you - I knew it'd come in useful one day. Yes I understand what you're saying, I don't think there should be any sort of pecking order on here, all opinions should be equally valid, but I suppose showing the numbers of postings everyone has made does rather encourage that mindset. If anyone feels something inappropriate has been posted report it to admin. I have to say that I think a bit more enforcement of rules 2 and 3 wouldn't go amiss either. tangytango.proboards.com/thread/1736/forum-charterAnyway getting back on topic I would suggest that a diluted version of the night bus network would be a good starting point with a few amendments. Run the 36 from Queens Park to Grove Park for example and I think the big hospitals all deserve some sort of service. Funnily enough, my amended list would have incorporated just that, the old 36B in effect. I'm not one for reporting things to admin, frankly. If I started receiving death threats, I suppose I might have to reconsider! I'm a conciliator by nature, so I'm more thinking of others being put off, particularly younger members, rather than a grizzled old g*t like me.
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Post by sid on Nov 10, 2018 16:17:55 GMT
Yes I understand what you're saying, I don't think there should be any sort of pecking order on here, all opinions should be equally valid, but I suppose showing the numbers of postings everyone has made does rather encourage that mindset. If anyone feels something inappropriate has been posted report it to admin. I have to say that I think a bit more enforcement of rules 2 and 3 wouldn't go amiss either. tangytango.proboards.com/thread/1736/forum-charterAnyway getting back on topic I would suggest that a diluted version of the night bus network would be a good starting point with a few amendments. Run the 36 from Queens Park to Grove Park for example and I think the big hospitals all deserve some sort of service. Funnily enough, my amended list would have incorporated just that, the old 36B in effect. I'm not one for reporting things to admin, frankly. If I started receiving death threats, I suppose I might have to reconsider! I'm a conciliator by nature, so I'm more thinking of others being put off, particularly younger members, rather than a grizzled old g*t like me. There is scope for quite a few longer routes to avoid unnecessary duplication. I wouldn't look upon reporting things to admin as telling tales more a case of not doing dirty washing in public.
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Post by wirewiper on Nov 11, 2018 19:05:04 GMT
Before designing a Christmas Day bus service, perhaps the question that should be asked is: "What is it for?".
In other words, what would be the purpose of running buses again, after a gap of nearly 40 years?
What hours would it run? When London Transport did run Christmas Day bus services they finished by 16.00 - which would be useless for any shift workers, who typically have arrangements made for them anyway if they do not have access to their own transport. And don't forget that only essential staff will be working; in hospitals and the like, routine surgery and appointments will not be taking place. Less than one million people work on Christmas Day throughout the UK.
The coverage would of necessity be thin - how would you decide who gets a bus service, and who doesn't? And where would the buses go? Also, are they going to be at a frequency that is attractive enough for potential passengers, or will the service be so poor that people walk, drive or take taxis anyway or simply don't make the journey?
I'm not saying buses should not run on Christmas Day, but I am yet to be convinced they are needed.
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Post by twobellstogo on Nov 11, 2018 20:37:19 GMT
You make some very good points.
At least one person is determined to stifle any debate on Christmas Day bus services for reasons that I can't comprehend. Of course I understand that many staff will not like the prospect of having to work on Christmas Day but given that it would probably be less than 10% of buses actually running I wouldn't think there would be any problem getting enough volunteers. I doubt I'd ever use buses on Christmas Day but clearly some people would, seems bizarre that buses run on the Isle of Wight but not in London.
Just to clear up a point that has been made about LT's, whilst I think they're very nice buses if people wish to make constructive criticisms about them they are perfectly entitled to do so, what becomes rather tiresome is the repetitive silly comments about sweatboxes and such like. As you've alluded to the constant negativity whether it be about LT's or cuts in services, cyclists or whatever really doesn't do the forum any favours at all.
Getting back to the original subject, I've not drawn up any comprehensive list of potential Christmas Day services but if anybody has hopefully they will post it. Nobody should feel reluctant to post for fear of being lambasted.
Just to clear one thing up - I don't fear being lambasted! I just don't see the point of going to the effort (okay, not a great deal of sweat but I do give these things some thought, even analysis) if no-one's going to appreciate it/ cogitate over it/ even argue in detail over it. If it's all 'boring' or 'tedious', then no point. On the latter, I don't ever read posts on probably half, maybe two thirds, of the subjects because I neither have the knowledge or interest. On others, I may have some interest but feel I can't contribute anything, so I stay stumm. I wish others would not feel obliged to contribute on topics they claim not to be interested in, or perhaps they can't help themselves. More generally, as i approach my initial year on the forum (can't believe it's only that long!) I can see how a newby can be daunted posting, and be easily put off. This particularly comes over in anything which requires an opinion, rather than reporting bus no. 12345 operated on route 999 yesterday. There is an obvious pecking order, I'd say, which has probably evolved over the years and, probably in the main, suits those at the top of it, though I do see a jockeying for position at a level two or three strata below the 'top'. That's what a sociology degree does for you - I knew it'd come in useful one day. You’re wrong. Bus no. 12345 was on the 96 today, not the 999. 😛😉😂
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Post by busaholic on Nov 11, 2018 21:21:46 GMT
Just to clear one thing up - I don't fear being lambasted! I just don't see the point of going to the effort (okay, not a great deal of sweat but I do give these things some thought, even analysis) if no-one's going to appreciate it/ cogitate over it/ even argue in detail over it. If it's all 'boring' or 'tedious', then no point. On the latter, I don't ever read posts on probably half, maybe two thirds, of the subjects because I neither have the knowledge or interest. On others, I may have some interest but feel I can't contribute anything, so I stay stumm. I wish others would not feel obliged to contribute on topics they claim not to be interested in, or perhaps they can't help themselves. More generally, as i approach my initial year on the forum (can't believe it's only that long!) I can see how a newby can be daunted posting, and be easily put off. This particularly comes over in anything which requires an opinion, rather than reporting bus no. 12345 operated on route 999 yesterday. There is an obvious pecking order, I'd say, which has probably evolved over the years and, probably in the main, suits those at the top of it, though I do see a jockeying for position at a level two or three strata below the 'top'. That's what a sociology degree does for you - I knew it'd come in useful one day. You’re wrong. Bus no. 12345 was on the 96 today, not the 999. 😛😉😂 Perhaps,in my ignorance, I should have said route 99 then.
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Post by busoccultation on Nov 11, 2018 21:26:39 GMT
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Post by busaholic on Nov 11, 2018 21:55:13 GMT
Before designing a Christmas Day bus service, perhaps the question that should be asked is: "What is it for?". In other words, what would be the purpose of running buses again, after a gap of nearly 40 years? What hours would it run? When London Transport did run Christmas Day bus services they finished by 16.00 - which would be useless for any shift workers, who typically have arrangements made for them anyway if they do not have access to their own transport. And don't forget that only essential staff will be working; in hospitals and the like, routine surgery and appointments will not be taking place. Less than one million people work on Christmas Day throughout the UK. The coverage would of necessity be thin - how would you decide who gets a bus service, and who doesn't? And where would the buses go? Also, are they going to be at a frequency that is attractive enough for potential passengers, or will the service be so poor that people walk, drive or take taxis anyway or simply don't make the journey? I'm not saying buses should not run on Christmas Day, but I am yet to be convinced they are needed. You ask the relevant questions. it's worthy of debate, at the very least, even though should TfL be required to finance it in full it's unlikely, but not impossible, to happen anytime soon. The 16.00 cut-off was as a result of the agreement between the TGWU and London Transport management so wouldn't have to be adhered to in future. Personally, I'm of the opinion that it'd be better to start small and see how it goes: i repeat my view that working should be voluntary, and I sincerely believe that there'll be far more takers than duties available. Maybe the chance for some drivers to work on routes they normally don't get a crack at? i'll cite the case of Carshalton trolleybus depot sixty years ago. CN depot only had the one route, Sutton to Crystal Palace. No scheduled short workings, other than garage journeys and very early/late West Croydon journeys. The difficult Anerley Hill for drivers, and not even the chance to socialise with bus drivers on all the other routes at CP, as the Anerley Hill terminal was quite separate. So, when you're given the opportunity to work a totally different route on one day a year only, the 630 from West Croydon as far as Mitcham only, many would jump at it, even though that day was Christmas Day. Foot down alongside Mitcham Common, no traffic in sight? There was never a shortage of takers.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 11, 2018 23:01:29 GMT
You’re wrong. Bus no. 12345 was on the 96 today, not the 999. 😛😉😂 Perhaps,in my ignorance, I should have said route 99 then. I actually thought you said it as an example?
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