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Post by busaholic on Feb 1, 2019 22:00:29 GMT
Guess this shows just how desperate the situation is at TfL that they need to ensure all revenue is being collected.
The more I think about this the more bonkers it sounds. Imagine a sudden surge of tourists boarding at a busy stop then realising they need to touch in so all surge towards the driver clashing with passengers that had board at the front. We have had 3 door boarding since 2002 (With a few years gap between bendies going and LTs arriving) and this will be a big change in central London.
This highlights the huge flaws these LTs have. Unbelievable amounts of fare evasion and I’m sorry but whoever designed the open button to open all three doors without being able to control which ones is an absolute idiot. Even at times like night routes with maybe only one person boarding at a stop, opening all three doors is completely unnecessary. The only way this can be policed is if no one needs to get off the bus, then only the front door needs to open (assuming they fix the door open buttons) so that then forces everyone to get on at the front to pass the driver and tap the reader. If someone needs to get off and they get off at the back it’ll be difficult for the driver to notice a fare dodger quickly jump on. Honestly these buses are such a ridiculous design (obviously an advantage for crowd control but that’s a small price to pay if it means stopping fare evasion) and that’s why I hate these things so much. No one outside London will want buses with that design, they probably won’t even be able to get 3p for them when they sell them on!! (sarcasm) Here's an idea that hasn't been thought of before. Employ a member of staff to stand on the rear platform and politely inform passengers they can no longer board there. You could call them Customer Assistants, or somesuch. Better still, get some work experience kids in and give them badges saying 'door monitor'. Oh, and remember to send the bill to Boris Johnson, marked 'personal - for immediate settlement'. RIP Jeremy Hardy.
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Post by M1104 on Feb 1, 2019 22:27:22 GMT
I have been hearing today about a TfL plan to make LTs/NBfL front entry only, with alighting at middle and rear. Good luck with that for the Brixton area
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 22:40:13 GMT
Seems once again TfL can't win whatever they do, they endeavour to put a stop to fare evasion and they're lambasted for it. I doubt it'll make that much difference to running times, as we obviously know two doored buses regularly appear on some LT routes and seem to have no particular difficulty keeping to time. The LT door controls were designed that way for a reason, whether they can be altered I don't know. Not getting into a argument or trying to be confrontational but sorry that's just not true. I can think of two routes that will suffer the 15 especially around Tower / St Paul's and the EL2 at Ilford and Barking ( I aim still impressed when I see a bus pull up in Ilford compared to when it was WVL operated) . Of course it will impact on running time don't know how you can one or two OPO buses subbing a LT as a comparison.
Yes sure maybe a few LT routes will manage I can think of the 8 will probably manage.
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Post by rj131 on Feb 1, 2019 22:48:53 GMT
Seems once again TfL can't win whatever they do, they endeavour to put a stop to fare evasion and they're lambasted for it. I doubt it'll make that much difference to running times, as we obviously know two doored buses regularly appear on some LT routes and seem to have no particular difficulty keeping to time. The LT door controls were designed that way for a reason, whether they can be altered I don't know. Not getting into a argument or trying to be confrontational but sorry that's just not true. I can think of two routes that will suffer the 15 especially around Tower / St Paul's and the EL2 at Ilford and Barking ( I aim still impressed when I see a bus pull up in Ilford compared to when it was WVL operated) . Of course it will impact on running time don't know how you can one or two OPO buses subbing a LT as a comparison.
Yes sure maybe a few LT routes will manage I can think of the 8 will probably manage.
Is that an implication the 15 gets very heavy loads around St Paul’s so single door boarding would make the routes schedule suffer? I never see the 15 particularly busy tbh so I’m interested to hear a local’s opinion who sees East London routes day in day out
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Post by M1104 on Feb 1, 2019 22:49:30 GMT
Seems once again TfL can't win whatever they do, they endeavour to put a stop to fare evasion and they're lambasted for it. I doubt it'll make that much difference to running times, as we obviously know two doored buses regularly appear on some LT routes and seem to have no particular difficulty keeping to time. Bearing in mind that regular deckers have better acceleration to make-up for lost time at bus stops. The LTs won't quite have that advantage.
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Post by sid on Feb 1, 2019 22:53:56 GMT
Seems once again TfL can't win whatever they do, they endeavour to put a stop to fare evasion and they're lambasted for it. I doubt it'll make that much difference to running times, as we obviously know two doored buses regularly appear on some LT routes and seem to have no particular difficulty keeping to time. The LT door controls were designed that way for a reason, whether they can be altered I don't know. Not getting into a argument or trying to be confrontational but sorry that's just not true. I can think of two routes that will suffer the 15 especially around Tower / St Paul's and the EL2 at Ilford and Barking ( I aim still impressed when I see a bus pull up in Ilford compared to when it was WVL operated) . Of course it will impact on running time don't know how you can one or two OPO buses subbing a LT as a comparison.
Yes sure maybe a few LT routes will manage I can think of the 8 will probably manage.
There has never been any firm evidence that three door buses are quicker overall, going back to the bendybus era there were two door Citaro's on the 436 after the speight of fires and they had no problem keeping to time.
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Post by Lukeo on Feb 2, 2019 1:39:15 GMT
If this actually was to happen, I’d imagine the EL routes have a chance of remaining as they are (just like the 507/521).
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Post by vjaska on Feb 2, 2019 2:45:30 GMT
Not getting into a argument or trying to be confrontational but sorry that's just not true. I can think of two routes that will suffer the 15 especially around Tower / St Paul's and the EL2 at Ilford and Barking ( I aim still impressed when I see a bus pull up in Ilford compared to when it was WVL operated) . Of course it will impact on running time don't know how you can one or two OPO buses subbing a LT as a comparison.
Yes sure maybe a few LT routes will manage I can think of the 8 will probably manage.
There has never been any firm evidence that three door buses are quicker overall, going back to the bendybus era there were two door Citaro's on the 436 after the speight of fires and they had no problem keeping to time. I think your missing what others are saying - LT's have quicker dwell times at stops because of the three door system & two staircases which hoovers up people at busy places like Barking & Brixton. I use the 3 quite a bit and have done so for 20 odd years and since it became LT operated, it's noticeably quicker serving the very busy Brixton Station stop than it was when it Tridents or Enviro 400's. We're not saying regular vehicles cannot keep to time but they are clearly at a disadvantage when everyone has to board through one door and alight through another and only have one staircase to reach the top deck - use a conventional bus from the very same stops in Brixton and you'll notice the difference.
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Post by joefrombow on Feb 2, 2019 4:20:00 GMT
Stupid idea defies the point of three doors in my opinion , why not employ a few but not for every bus on a route or a group of routes some Travel safe officers who carry out random ticket checks on a regular basis so for the EL routes you would have 5 officers who carry out random checks at any time of the day patrolling those routes doing random spot checks the usual "bunkers" would think twice ..
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Post by snowman on Feb 2, 2019 7:36:10 GMT
I think in these revenue restricted times it makes a lot of sense. I don’t really know why it took so long to realise it may as well be like any other bus with front door boarding and touch in on boarding. Just need to ensure the No Entry signs are big enough to be seen.
Those who have pointed out that at some busy stops there are lots of boarding have clearly never stood outside somewhere like Richmond station and watched the numbers when a fast train and District line train arrive together. I have seen occasion where 10 virtually empty buses arrive on multiple routes and people are being left behind. Regular Commuters are very fast at boarding
I guess modifications are needed to door control buttons, there are going to be stops where front door only is required as no one has rung bell to alight. Does this require extra button, or just revised software and some stickers marking new switch layout. Unless I have misunderstood each switch is just a trigger for electrical process to begin that communicates with door actuators.
Maybe as each conversion takes place some uniformed revenue teams will need to do 2-3 weeks standing near middle and rear doors in some lawless places to watch for people sneaking on back and middle, Not to check tickets but to make it clear that boarding is by front door (hence need to be in uniform with cap to look authorative), prevent boarding by educating rather than deal with consequences. Can’t decide if this is better done with them standing at stop, on pavement, or being done by standing in doorway on bus as soon as last person alighting is off. Really depends on how closely grouped the troublesome stops are (ones with those sneaking on).
I actually think having a pool of standard buses used for few days on each route would help familiarisation. Could easily start with Fulwells 10 new VHs being used on 267 for few days, then progressing in phases, part of 267 overlaps with 27 (a recent conversion, so easy to switch back), then the 9 as it shares Bus fleet, then ....... there is probably a logical order to avoid one route changing too far ahead of another that has common routing.
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Post by M1104 on Feb 2, 2019 9:09:51 GMT
If plans go ahead would there be 'sufficient' public notifications beforehand or would that end up being down to drivers dishing out the 'good news'? Also, would Boris buses eventually drift about on non-LT routes, subject to clearance?
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Post by Londonbuses54 on Feb 2, 2019 9:21:23 GMT
Perhaps more costly, but even a speaker could play saying ‘please board at the front door’ or something of the like
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Post by Frenzie on Feb 2, 2019 11:07:48 GMT
It’s obvious that TfL are trying to make more money. With the LTs, the driver isn’t responsible for fare evasion, however on a conventional bus, for every person that gets caught the bus company gets fined £200 and it’s usually the driver that gets the blame from the company. They can now give back this responsibility back to the driver on LTs.
LTs are much quicker than most diesel buses so shouldn’t be a problem.
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Post by Gellico on Feb 2, 2019 11:35:54 GMT
It’s obvious that TfL are trying to make more money. With the LTs, the driver isn’t responsible for fare evasion, however on a conventional bus, for every person that gets caught the bus company gets fined £200 and it’s usually the driver that gets the blame from the company. They can now give back this responsibility back to the driver on LTs. LTs are much quicker than most diesel buses so shouldn’t be a problem. Quicker in what respect? Not like you can get up to any speed in the first place.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 2, 2019 11:59:42 GMT
I think in these revenue restricted times it makes a lot of sense. I don’t really know why it took so long to realise it may as well be like any other bus with front door boarding and touch in on boarding. Just need to ensure the No Entry signs are big enough to be seen. Those who have pointed out that at some busy stops there are lots of boarding have clearly never stood outside somewhere like Richmond station and watched the numbers when a fast train and District line train arrive together. I have seen occasion where 10 virtually empty buses arrive on multiple routes and people are being left behind. Regular Commuters are very fast at boarding I guess modifications are needed to door control buttons, there are going to be stops where front door only is required as no one has rung bell to alight. Does this require extra button, or just revised software and some stickers marking new switch layout. Unless I have misunderstood each switch is just a trigger for electrical process to begin that communicates with door actuators. Maybe as each conversion takes place some uniformed revenue teams will need to do 2-3 weeks standing near middle and rear doors in some lawless places to watch for people sneaking on back and middle, Not to check tickets but to make it clear that boarding is by front door (hence need to be in uniform with cap to look authorative), prevent boarding by educating rather than deal with consequences. Can’t decide if this is better done with them standing at stop, on pavement, or being done by standing in doorway on bus as soon as last person alighting is off. Really depends on how closely grouped the troublesome stops are (ones with those sneaking on). I actually think having a pool of standard buses used for few days on each route would help familiarisation. Could easily start with Fulwells 10 new VHs being used on 267 for few days, then progressing in phases, part of 267 overlaps with 27 (a recent conversion, so easy to switch back), then the 9 as it shares Bus fleet, then ....... there is probably a logical order to avoid one route changing too far ahead of another that has common routing. Richmond might be one example, however Barking and Ilford which actually do have LTs the difference is noticeable. On the EL1 especially buses would often spend so long loading up that the only way they'd leave is when the bus behind arrives.
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