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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 20, 2019 16:14:37 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Feb 20, 2019 16:43:11 GMT
I'm mildly astonished TfL seem to be happy with this. The fundamental question is what type of card will it be and how will be secure. Wonder what happens when the subsidised price can't be borne by Citymapper? I assume the price goes up to align with TfL prices. I know I'm a bit of old fogey on ticketing stuff but this doesn't sit very well with me. I can see all sorts of issues with it. If TfL staff can't recognise ITSO cards (issued by TOCs) with Travelcards on them god help anyone having an issue with a Citymapper Card. "Wot's this green thing then?"  Noteworthy that it is constrained to inner city zones (oooh hipsterville) and excludes National Rail services not contracted by TfL. Also no mention of the DLR that runs extensively in zones 1 and 2. I assume TfL Rail is excluded as only Liv St and Stratford would be covered and that stretch also has interavailability with Greater Anglia. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 20, 2019 16:47:21 GMT
I'm mildly astonished TfL seem to be happy with this. The fundamental question is what type of card will it be and how will be secure. Wonder what happens when the subsidised price can't be borne by Citymapper? I assume the price goes up to align with TfL prices. I know I'm a bit of old fogey on ticketing stuff but this doesn't sit very well with me. I can see all sorts of issues with it. If TfL staff can't recognise ITSO cards (issued by TOCs) with Travelcards on them god help anyone having an issue with a Citymapper Card. "Wot's this green thing then?" Noteworthy that it is constrained to inner city zones (oooh hipsterville) and excludes National Rail services not contracted by TfL. Also no mention of the DLR that runs extensively in zones 1 and 2. I assume TfL Rail is excluded as only Liv St and Stratford would be covered and that stretch also has interavailability with Greater Anglia. Looking at the photo on the article the card seems to be bearing the Mastercard logo on it, whether this is just an edit where they've placed that logo on it randomly or if it's intentional remains to be seen. However if the card will be powered by Mastercard I imagine it should be secure. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 20, 2019 17:07:07 GMT
I'm mildly astonished TfL seem to be happy with this. The fundamental question is what type of card will it be and how will be secure. Wonder what happens when the subsidised price can't be borne by Citymapper? I assume the price goes up to align with TfL prices. I know I'm a bit of old fogey on ticketing stuff but this doesn't sit very well with me. I can see all sorts of issues with it. If TfL staff can't recognise ITSO cards (issued by TOCs) with Travelcards on them god help anyone having an issue with a Citymapper Card. "Wot's this green thing then?" Noteworthy that it is constrained to inner city zones (oooh hipsterville) and excludes National Rail services not contracted by TfL. Also no mention of the DLR that runs extensively in zones 1 and 2. I assume TfL Rail is excluded as only Liv St and Stratford would be covered and that stretch also has interavailability with Greater Anglia. Looking at the photo on the article the card seems to be bearing the Mastercard logo on it, whether this is just an edit where they've placed that logo on it randomly or if it's intentional remains to be seen. However if the card will be powered by Mastercard I imagine it should be secure. Which would be fine if the thing was acting like a contactless bank card. The way I read the blurb is that you are buying a "LT Card" weekly season for zones 1 and 2 with added cycle hire and taxi gizmo on the top. A bank card doesn't and can't hold a transport card. Only TfL's Oyster and ITSO cards can hold a defined transport season ticket. As Oyster is a closed proprietary system I can't see why TfL could allow someone else to use their intellectual property. That leaves us with an ITSO card but even then one which would have a unique product definition on it given there is no such thing as a "LT Card" season ticket. The closest there is is that peculiar tourist ticket that TfL launched a few months back from a few limited stations. What is interesting is that a number of NR routes in Zones 1 and 2 are interavailable with TfL services and are priced at TfL rates - Thameslink from West Hampsted / F Park to London Bridge / E&C, Finsbury Park - Moorgate, Stratford - Liv St. Others are outside (such as C Junction to Vic / Wloo, Greenwich / Lewisham - Vic/CSt/CX/Lon B) which creates the potential for mess and confusion. (LT Card is an old product dating from the 1980s where you could buy a day ticket but only for LT services). |
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Post by paulsw2 on Feb 20, 2019 17:23:45 GMT
Looking at the photo on the article the card seems to be bearing the Mastercard logo on it, whether this is just an edit where they've placed that logo on it randomly or if it's intentional remains to be seen. However if the card will be powered by Mastercard I imagine it should be secure. Which would be fine if the thing was acting like a contactless bank card. The way I read the blurb is that you are buying a "LT Card" weekly season for zones 1 and 2 with added cycle hire and taxi gizmo on the top. A bank card doesn't and can't hold a transport card. Only TfL's Oyster and ITSO cards can hold a defined transport season ticket. As Oyster is a closed proprietary system I can't see why TfL could allow someone else to use their intellectual property. That leaves us with an ITSO card but even then one which would have a unique product definition on it given there is no such thing as a "LT Card" season ticket. The closest there is is that peculiar tourist ticket that TfL launched a few months back from a few limited stations. What is interesting is that a number of NR routes in Zones 1 and 2 are interavailable with TfL services and are priced at TfL rates - Thameslink from West Hampsted / F Park to London Bridge / E&C, Finsbury Park - Moorgate, Stratford - Liv St. Others are outside (such as C Junction to Vic / Wloo, Greenwich / Lewisham - Vic/CSt/CX/Lon B) which creates the potential for mess and confusion. (LT Card is an old product dating from the 1980s where you could buy a day ticket but only for LT services). Another old ticket pre dating the present Travelcard was the Capitalcard which included NR services and the old version of the Travelcard which was only valid on LT services ie bus and tube and the zones were if I remember correctly was 1 2 3a 3b &3c |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 20, 2019 17:48:37 GMT
Another old ticket pre dating the present Travelcard was the Capitalcard which included NR services and the old version of the Travelcard which was only valid on LT services ie bus and tube and the zones were if I remember correctly was 1 2 3a 3b &3c Correct - I used to buy Capitalcard when I was a student. I think I still have a ticket wallet with a lot of old card tickets in it including a Capitalcard. |
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Post by busman on Feb 21, 2019 10:38:46 GMT
Errrm this is basically a contactless pay card with deeper integration into Citymapper. I can’t see see anything about this product that does something I can’t already due with a contactless bank card or apple pay. This just creates an extra card for my wallet.
The only incentive is the cheaper weekly fares. I say only, but that is quite a big draw. TfL will receive the full fare revenue from Citymapper, whilst cheaper costs passed on to consumers are subsidised by Citymapper. Also there is the prospect of a combined payment and full on travel planner in one app. This is something many people have been screaming at TfL to do with their Oyster app. Citymapper have beaten them to the punch here.
Nothing in this world is really free, so what’s in it for Citymapper? I see they are promoting their cab share service through usage of the card, which might drive increased revenue for them. However I’m pretty certain than the real value for them is getting their hands on large data sets that they can then monetise directly or indirectly.
I’m not saying that the pass is a good or bad thing, it’s just that consumers should have their eyes wide open! The press release is so cliched. It sets out problems that aren’t really there in the first place. “Transit ticketing is complicated....Buying tickets for public transit fills everyone with anxiety.”. Bxxxxxcks. Sorry, but it is. You can buy an oyster card, or tap your contactless card or phone on the reader. It is pretty stress free actually. Making someone download an app or buy a third party ticket with multiple options that may or may not work for all things adds complexity.
For me, the car pool aspect is very interesting. The ability to integrate that with public transport adds a totally new dimension even beyond google, TfL or any other planning platform. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2019 12:10:38 GMT
Errrm this is basically a contactless pay card with deeper integration into Citymapper. I can’t see see anything about this product that does something I can’t already due with a contactless bank card or apple pay. This just creates an extra card for my wallet. The only incentive is the cheaper weekly fares. I say only, but that is quite a big draw. TfL will receive the full fare revenue from Citymapper, whilst cheaper costs passed on to consumers are subsidised by Citymapper. Also there is the prospect of a combined payment and full on travel planner. This is something many prople have been screaming at TfL to do with their Oyster app. Citymapper have beaten them to the punch here. Nothing in this world is really free, so what’s in it for Citymapper? I see they are promoting their cab share service through usage of the card, which might drive increased revenue for them. However I’m pretty certain than the real value for them is getting their hands on large data sets that they can then monetise directly or indirectly. I’m not saying that the pass is a good or bad thing, it’s just that consumers should have their eyes wide open! The press release is so cliched. It sets out problems that aren’t really there in the first place. “Transit ticketing is complicated....Buying tickets for public transit fills everyone with anxiety.”. Bxxxxxcks. Sorry, but it is. You can buy an oyster card, or tap your contactless card or phone on the reader. It is pretty stress free actually. Making someone download an app or buy a third party ticket with multiple options that may or may not work for all things adds complexity. For me, the car pool aspect is very interesting. The ability to integrate that with public transport adds a totally new dimension even beyond google, TfL or any other planning platform. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. I read the press release and had pretty much the same reaction as you. Lots of created "problems" when the reality is that in London you can whizz about with a bank card and not worry about things. Do people really get stressed out by having a daily travel charge on their bank statement? They must need counselling for all the Costa Coffee, Pret a Manager and bar charges on their accounts.   The thing that is interesting is the concept of a "subscription" which ties people in to forking out a load of money each month when most commentators are saying travel patterns are now more variable and unpredictable which has undermined the traditional season ticket market. A "subscription" is just a season ticket by another name. I suspect the Journey Planner function will be "tweaked" to offer more remunerative (for Citymapper) options for some journeys. Why take a bus when one of our nice shared cabs can come along and take you? Not sure how that helps TfL or the planet. I agree with you that the data mining is probably what "justifies" the price subsidy in the short term but beyond that I struggle to see how this is going to work. I note also that the Citymapper PR states that National Rail is in the scheme whereas the Standard studiously ignored that aspect. |
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Post by danorak on Feb 21, 2019 14:18:47 GMT
Citymapper's attempts to muscle in on London seem to me to have foundered on Travelcard validity - why pay for a whizzo Citymapper taxi when you can use a bus/tube etc? So by taking control of the ticketing, they can hide that aspect. Seems like a Trojan horse to me.
London has a pretty good transport and ticketing system, albeit one that is starting to fray a bit in places. I know it probably doesn't have the glamour factor in Silicon Valley, but they might do better with these things in Manchester where the regulatory barriers are lower and there is still a 'media class' who would lap it up.
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Post by redbus on Feb 21, 2019 15:13:20 GMT
I find this quite interesting and look forward to seeing how it goes. I am not yet convinced about its usp (unique selling point), but let's see.
I would argue that there's much merit in the Citymapper bus / shared taxi service. They call it a bus I think. The benefits of this bus have been growing and will continue to grow as TfL hack back their Zone 1 bus network. Now you can complete many journeys that used to be one bus, that you now have to change buses, by using the Citymapper bus. Yes it is more expensive, but far from Uber prices, but it does have good comfort, usb charging etc. You may also have a number of other passengers, just like a bus. If this is bus is a success for Citymapper, then TfLs hacking back of the zone 1 bus network will be part of the reason why.
Yes, you will give your data to Citymapper who will undoubtedly use it, but to be honest it is much the same data we already give Tfl, it is just that Citymapper will have it as well.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2019 16:56:04 GMT
I find this quite interesting and look forward to seeing how it goes. I am not yet convinced about its usp (unique selling point), but let's see. I would argue that there's much merit in the Citymapper bus / shared taxi service. They call it a bus I think. The benefits of this bus have been growing and will continue to grow as TfL hack back their Zone 1 bus network. Now you can complete many journeys that used to be one bus, that you now have to change buses, by using the Citymapper bus. Yes it is more expensive, but far from Uber prices, but it does have good comfort, usb charging etc. You may also have a number of other passengers, just like a bus. If this is bus is a success for Citymapper, then TfLs hacking back of the zone 1 bus network will be part of the reason why. Yes, you will give your data to Citymapper who will undoubtedly use it, but to be honest it is much the same data we already give Tfl, it is just that Citymapper will have it as well. Except that for many journeys Citymapper will know your actual origin and actual destination assuming the Journey Planning and payment functions are integrated as stated. That's rather richer and more valuable data that TfL have - unless you complete a survey. Citymapper may know this for more journeys than TfL will if there is take-up for their new card. That then starts to give them data to compete directly with TfL services. I don't view that as a desirable outcome no matter how awful we may think some TfL descisions are. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2019 23:52:41 GMT
Here is an interesting "rolled up" thread from Twitter about the Citymapper Pass concept and where it may be lead. Obviously just one train of thought but I have to say I have some sympathies with the concerns expressed. This is not some sort of philanthropic gesture on the part of Citymapper. threadreaderapp.com/thread/1098530189422874629.html |
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Post by snowman on Mar 6, 2019 9:56:58 GMT
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 4, 2019 19:30:13 GMT
Looks like it's off to a rough start
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The thing that is interesting is the concept of a "subscription" which ties people in to forking out a load of money each month when most commentators are saying travel patterns are now more variable and unpredictable which has undermined the traditional season ticket market. A "subscription" is just a season ticket by another name.
