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Post by sid on Apr 29, 2019 5:58:23 GMT
Aren't the electric single deckers on the 312 and the H98 the choice of the respective operators rather than a TfL specification? Don't think so. I thought TfL actually owned all those Optares and electric operation was in the contract specification. I might be wrong though. Bit like the BYD deckers on the 98 - pretty sure that's a TfL imposed requirement and the buses are owned by TfL. It has long been TfL's precedent to own the early batches of new technology vehicles and effectively lease them to the operator. They tend to keep very quiet about this though. Once designs are proven or updated then the purchase risk for later batches passes to the operators. I might be wrong as well but I was told by somebody who works at TC that the electric buses on the 312 are an Arriva initiative and TfL would have been satisfied with bog standard diesels and I just assumed those on the H98 were the same?
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Post by redexpress on Apr 29, 2019 7:00:56 GMT
Don't think so. I thought TfL actually owned all those Optares and electric operation was in the contract specification. I might be wrong though. Bit like the BYD deckers on the 98 - pretty sure that's a TfL imposed requirement and the buses are owned by TfL. It has long been TfL's precedent to own the early batches of new technology vehicles and effectively lease them to the operator. They tend to keep very quiet about this though. Once designs are proven or updated then the purchase risk for later batches passes to the operators. I might be wrong as well but I was told by somebody who works at TC that the electric buses on the 312 are an Arriva initiative and TfL would have been satisfied with bog standard diesels and I just assumed those on the H98 were the same? Pretty sure the first two Arriva EMCs (the 64-reg ones) were a TfL initiative, arranged as part of the same trial that introduced electrics on the H98. The remainder of the EMCs were then procured by Arriva as part of the 312's retender. I assume Arriva would have offered both electric and diesel options with their bid, and TfL chose to take the electric option, allowing them to trumpet the 312 as the first fully-electric route.
I was under the impression that the main reason for choosing the 312 and H98 in the first place was that they terminated at their home garages, which would allow for easy charging during the daytime. There weren't many SD routes that fitted the bill. At the time there was a big question mark over whether electrics could last a full day in service without needing a recharge; indeed the Optares still don't seem to manage that, although the more recent BYDs have been fine.
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Post by sid on Apr 29, 2019 7:51:09 GMT
I might be wrong as well but I was told by somebody who works at TC that the electric buses on the 312 are an Arriva initiative and TfL would have been satisfied with bog standard diesels and I just assumed those on the H98 were the same? Pretty sure the first two Arriva EMCs (the 64-reg ones) were a TfL initiative, arranged as part of the same trial that introduced electrics on the H98. The remainder of the EMCs were then procured by Arriva as part of the 312's retender. I assume Arriva would have offered both electric and diesel options with their bid, and TfL chose to take the electric option, allowing them to trumpet the 312 as the first fully-electric route.
I was under the impression that the main reason for choosing the 312 and H98 in the first place was that they terminated at their home garages, which would allow for easy charging during the daytime. There weren't many SD routes that fitted the bill. At the time there was a big question mark over whether electrics could last a full day in service without needing a recharge; indeed the Optares still don't seem to manage that, although the more recent BYDs have been fine.
You might well be right, the 312 buses don't have a great range and are often subbed by diesels in the evening.
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Post by redbus on Apr 29, 2019 9:32:10 GMT
I might be wrong as well but I was told by somebody who works at TC that the electric buses on the 312 are an Arriva initiative and TfL would have been satisfied with bog standard diesels and I just assumed those on the H98 were the same? Pretty sure the first two Arriva EMCs (the 64-reg ones) were a TfL initiative, arranged as part of the same trial that introduced electrics on the H98. The remainder of the EMCs were then procured by Arriva as part of the 312's retender. I assume Arriva would have offered both electric and diesel options with their bid, and TfL chose to take the electric option, allowing them to trumpet the 312 as the first fully-electric route.
I was under the impression that the main reason for choosing the 312 and H98 in the first place was that they terminated at their home garages, which would allow for easy charging during the daytime. There weren't many SD routes that fitted the bill. At the time there was a big question mark over whether electrics could last a full day in service without needing a recharge; indeed the Optares still don't seem to manage that, although the more recent BYDs have been fine.
I really can't see electric buses being an Operator initiative in the sense of the cost / risk falling on the Operator. Operators are commercial companies there to make money, so why would they purchase electric buses at a considerably increased cost over diesel buses for little benefit to themselves. As said, the Operator might suggest an electric option to TfL in the bid, which TfL then agree to at additional cost, ie TfL bear the additional costs.
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Post by sid on Apr 29, 2019 9:52:43 GMT
Pretty sure the first two Arriva EMCs (the 64-reg ones) were a TfL initiative, arranged as part of the same trial that introduced electrics on the H98. The remainder of the EMCs were then procured by Arriva as part of the 312's retender. I assume Arriva would have offered both electric and diesel options with their bid, and TfL chose to take the electric option, allowing them to trumpet the 312 as the first fully-electric route.
I was under the impression that the main reason for choosing the 312 and H98 in the first place was that they terminated at their home garages, which would allow for easy charging during the daytime. There weren't many SD routes that fitted the bill. At the time there was a big question mark over whether electrics could last a full day in service without needing a recharge; indeed the Optares still don't seem to manage that, although the more recent BYDs have been fine.
I really can't see electric buses being an Operator initiative in the sense of the cost / risk falling on the Operator. Operators are commercial companies there to make money, so why would they purchase electric buses at a considerably increased cost over diesel buses for little benefit to themselves. As said, the Operator might suggest an electric option to TfL in the bid, which TfL then agree to at additional cost, ie TfL bear the additional costs. This article seems to suggest that they are an Arriva initiative. news.arriva.co.uk/news/arriva-operate-london-s-first-fully-electric-bus-routeI was told by somebody who works at TC, and I know this can't automatically be taken as gospel, that the lower running costs over the contract period makes it worthwhile.
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Post by SILENCED on Apr 29, 2019 10:59:13 GMT
I really can't see electric buses being an Operator initiative in the sense of the cost / risk falling on the Operator. Operators are commercial companies there to make money, so why would they purchase electric buses at a considerably increased cost over diesel buses for little benefit to themselves. As said, the Operator might suggest an electric option to TfL in the bid, which TfL then agree to at additional cost, ie TfL bear the additional costs. This article seems to suggest that they are an Arriva initiative. news.arriva.co.uk/news/arriva-operate-london-s-first-fully-electric-bus-routeI was told by somebody who works at TC, and I know this can't automatically be taken as gospel, that the lower running costs over the contract period makes it worthwhile. This seems to be after tender award dated Mar 2015 ... we were told in the electric bus thread in Nov 14 that 7 more EMC were due ... so the award at the time was not a major shock ... I don't think we know enough to establish who instigated things ... but Arriva probably did well out of it ... probably having electrics upgraded to operate the buses ... which will no doubt cover future expansion there ... half expected the last 166 award to be with electrics ... but turned out not to be the case.
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Post by snowman on Apr 29, 2019 11:02:45 GMT
I really can't see electric buses being an Operator initiative in the sense of the cost / risk falling on the Operator. Operators are commercial companies there to make money, so why would they purchase electric buses at a considerably increased cost over diesel buses for little benefit to themselves. As said, the Operator might suggest an electric option to TfL in the bid, which TfL then agree to at additional cost, ie TfL bear the additional costs. This article seems to suggest that they are an Arriva initiative. news.arriva.co.uk/news/arriva-operate-london-s-first-fully-electric-bus-routeI was told by somebody who works at TC, and I know this can't automatically be taken as gospel, that the lower running costs over the contract period makes it worthwhile. In isolation, an initiative like this will look poor, I suspect they expected to gain loads of electric conversion routes off the back of this as a "loss leader", however it appears to be GoAhead that have taken bulk of electric conversions so far. Possibly the economics of it turned out to not be as good as they hoped for.
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