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Post by busaholic on May 29, 2019 18:36:30 GMT
A piece in a recent national newspaper written by a favourite columnist of mine, Deborah Ross, posed just this question. She was referring to London buses specifically and related to her experiences of trying to catch buses near her home, which I happen to know is in Crouch End, so probably refer to buses to Finsbury Park Station. She wrote that at one time there was an etiquette at bus stops where everyone knew their place in the queue, even if they didn't stand in line, but that gradually dissipated until you get the situation as she sees it now, where a surge takes place when the bus arrives and it's everyone for themselves, given that most of the buses are arriving almost full and only a few get on. The same may then occur with the next couple of buses that pull up: she explains that she was so disspirited recently that she eventually just returned home, but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls.
Personally, I'd be particularly interested in the views of drivers on here, especially if you've been driving for a decade or more and can compare now with then. I do realise there are certain localities where proper queuing still pertains, as much from the layout as anything else e.g. bus stations with narrow 'platforms' like Victoria. Also, is this purely a London phenomenon? I certainly don't see it where I live, which is a long way from any city.
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2019 19:49:12 GMT
A piece in a recent national newspaper written by a favourite columnist of mine, Deborah Ross, posed just this question. She was referring to London buses specifically and related to her experiences of trying to catch buses near her home, which I happen to know is in Crouch End, so probably refer to buses to Finsbury Park Station. She wrote that at one time there was an etiquette at bus stops where everyone knew their place in the queue, even if they didn't stand in line, but that gradually dissipated until you get the situation as she sees it now, where a surge takes place when the bus arrives and it's everyone for themselves, given that most of the buses are arriving almost full and only a few get on. The same may then occur with the next couple of buses that pull up: she explains that she was so disspirited recently that she eventually just returned home, but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Personally, I'd be particularly interested in the views of drivers on here, especially if you've been driving for a decade or more and can compare now with then. I do realise there are certain localities where proper queuing still pertains, as much from the layout as anything else e.g. bus stations with narrow 'platforms' like Victoria. Also, is this purely a London phenomenon? I certainly don't see it where I live, which is a long way from any city. Obviously I'm not a driver but behaviour varies all over London. Some places people do still queue but it tends to be off peak and with quieter routes. Wherever you get very busy routes at very busy locations then the pressure for people to get on the first bus seems to increase. This is despite smartphone data and bus stop displays showing where buses are. People don't engage brains and be prepared to wait if another bus is mere minutes behind. I was in the Hornsey end of Crouch End recently and was sadly returning home at school kicking out time. The 41 is the only service at that location and there was quite a gaggle of school girls and others waiting. The 41's headway was all over the place but the glacial progress of the first bus made it clear to me that it would rammed full. And, of course, it was. I did manage to get on the 2nd bus and find a seat although we got the inevitable "this bus will wait here" as we got 1 stop from Turnpike Lane. I then had to get off and dash, as best as I could, through the subway to the bus station to get on a 123 I knew was coming and yes that was packed as well and yes there was a mini melée to get on it. I can understand that Crouch End is a particular nightmare because of the lack of tube links for an area with highish density population. I've certainly read reports of queues of 100 people at Crouch End waiting for the W7 in the AM peak. That says to me there's a lack of capacity or the W7's operation is divergent from the timetabled frequency. There are also never ending complaints to the Mayor about the peak time capacity / reliability of the W3 bus. I do think the "herd" mentality is largely a London thing. The transport system is pressured a lot of the time and people are in a hurry which makes them push. It's the same thing you see on the tube - every train is the "last" train. I don't get outside London much these days but I suspect the usually lower volumes of people travelling coupled with much more cash based transactions actually forces a slower, more measured approach to boarding. Of course when you do hit a busy stop the bus will be there for ages because of the slow boarding speeds. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 20:03:59 GMT
I find bus stations the worse for passengers barging to be first on. I find Walthamstow Central a nightmare (69 stop) and Canning Town (5,115 Stop) it really is a one for all situation.
I will often let a bus / train go if one is a few minutes behind just less hassle all round.
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Post by redexpress on May 29, 2019 21:25:53 GMT
A piece in a recent national newspaper written by a favourite columnist of mine, Deborah Ross, posed just this question. She was referring to London buses specifically and related to her experiences of trying to catch buses near her home, which I happen to know is in Crouch End, so probably refer to buses to Finsbury Park Station. She wrote that at one time there was an etiquette at bus stops where everyone knew their place in the queue, even if they didn't stand in line, but that gradually dissipated until you get the situation as she sees it now, where a surge takes place when the bus arrives and it's everyone for themselves, given that most of the buses are arriving almost full and only a few get on. The same may then occur with the next couple of buses that pull up: she explains that she was so disspirited recently that she eventually just returned home, but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Personally, I'd be particularly interested in the views of drivers on here, especially if you've been driving for a decade or more and can compare now with then. I do realise there are certain localities where proper queuing still pertains, as much from the layout as anything else e.g. bus stations with narrow 'platforms' like Victoria. Also, is this purely a London phenomenon? I certainly don't see it where I live, which is a long way from any city. Odd that these comments should come from someone on the Finsbury Park - Crouch End corridor, as that's one of the very few places in London where there is still some attempt at queuing, in my experience. It does fall apart at school chucking-out time but otherwise people do try to queue, for the W7 at least. The 41 is another animal altogether, even in Crouch End, and it's been that way for as long as I've been here (20+ years).
One change that has messed up the Crouch End routes is the closure of the Wells Terrace exit from the tube station. This means people now approach the buses from the front, which encourages people to try to queue-jump. Previously over 90% of people boarding W3s and W7s at Finsbury Park had just come out of the Wells Terrace exit and were therefore approaching the bus from the rear, so joining the queue was almost unavoidable.
Do people still queue at Victoria? I thought that went out of the window when the bendies came in with their three-door boarding. Even now, the buses that pick up from the bus station are open-boarding (LTs or 507s) so it wouldn't be easy for people to queue even if they wanted to.
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Post by busaholic on May 29, 2019 22:21:30 GMT
A piece in a recent national newspaper written by a favourite columnist of mine, Deborah Ross, posed just this question. She was referring to London buses specifically and related to her experiences of trying to catch buses near her home, which I happen to know is in Crouch End, so probably refer to buses to Finsbury Park Station. She wrote that at one time there was an etiquette at bus stops where everyone knew their place in the queue, even if they didn't stand in line, but that gradually dissipated until you get the situation as she sees it now, where a surge takes place when the bus arrives and it's everyone for themselves, given that most of the buses are arriving almost full and only a few get on. The same may then occur with the next couple of buses that pull up: she explains that she was so disspirited recently that she eventually just returned home, but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Personally, I'd be particularly interested in the views of drivers on here, especially if you've been driving for a decade or more and can compare now with then. I do realise there are certain localities where proper queuing still pertains, as much from the layout as anything else e.g. bus stations with narrow 'platforms' like Victoria. Also, is this purely a London phenomenon? I certainly don't see it where I live, which is a long way from any city. Odd that these comments should come from someone on the Finsbury Park - Crouch End corridor, as that's one of the very few places in London where there is still some attempt at queuing, in my experience. It does fall apart at school chucking-out time but otherwise people do try to queue, for the W7 at least. The 41 is another animal altogether, even in Crouch End, and it's been that way for as long as I've been here (20+ years).
One change that has messed up the Crouch End routes is the closure of the Wells Terrace exit from the tube station. This means people now approach the buses from the front, which encourages people to try to queue-jump. Previously over 90% of people boarding W3s and W7s at Finsbury Park had just come out of the Wells Terrace exit and were therefore approaching the bus from the rear, so joining the queue was almost unavoidable.
Do people still queue at Victoria? I thought that went out of the window when the bendies came in with their three-door boarding. Even now, the buses that pick up from the bus station are open-boarding (LTs or 507s) so it wouldn't be easy for people to queue even if they wanted to.
It was my assumption that Crouch End to Finsbury Park was being spoken of, but from what both you and Dr Snoggle say it might well be the 41. Your point about Wells Terrace, though, does show how unintended consequences can flow from seemingly unrelated decisions. My mental images of Victoria are probably too grounded in Routemaster days, so was probably not the best example, but if boarding becomes restricted on the LTs it'll be interesting to see what changes in patterns of passenger behaviour. |
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Post by busaholic on May 29, 2019 22:27:59 GMT
A piece in a recent national newspaper written by a favourite columnist of mine, Deborah Ross, posed just this question. She was referring to London buses specifically and related to her experiences of trying to catch buses near her home, which I happen to know is in Crouch End, so probably refer to buses to Finsbury Park Station. She wrote that at one time there was an etiquette at bus stops where everyone knew their place in the queue, even if they didn't stand in line, but that gradually dissipated until you get the situation as she sees it now, where a surge takes place when the bus arrives and it's everyone for themselves, given that most of the buses are arriving almost full and only a few get on. The same may then occur with the next couple of buses that pull up: she explains that she was so disspirited recently that she eventually just returned home, but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Personally, I'd be particularly interested in the views of drivers on here, especially if you've been driving for a decade or more and can compare now with then. I do realise there are certain localities where proper queuing still pertains, as much from the layout as anything else e.g. bus stations with narrow 'platforms' like Victoria. Also, is this purely a London phenomenon? I certainly don't see it where I live, which is a long way from any city. I do think the "herd" mentality is largely a London thing. The transport system is pressured a lot of the time and people are in a hurry which makes them push. It's the same thing you see on the tube - every train is the "last" train. I don't get outside London much these days but I suspect the usually lower volumes of people travelling coupled with much more cash based transactions actually forces a slower, more measured approach to boarding. Of course when you do hit a busy stop the bus will be there for ages because of the slow boarding speeds. That's a good point about slower boarding in the provinces, if that's still an acceptable word. Much more interaction between passenger and driver, especially in places where screens are not deemed necessary, will probably mean more civility on the whole. |
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Post by ronnie on May 29, 2019 23:12:33 GMT
Interesting topic I must say. I havnt seen much queueing in most cases - people tend to be fairly competitive fo get on so all etiquette goes out of the window
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Post by 6HP502C on May 29, 2019 23:48:18 GMT
Interesting topic I must say. I havnt seen much queueing in most cases - people tend to be fairly competitive fo get on so all etiquette goes out of the window It does happen - principally outside commuter stations where forming an orderly queue is a cultural norm. See the city bound bus stops at Waterloo or the stop outside Bromley South. Compare and contrast with boarding the P4 in Brixton! When I went to Hong Kong, they had a queuing system which consisted of route numbers and queue lines painted onto the ground, which seemed to work. But then on busy corridors, bus stop staggering is in another dimension to make the number of routes serving each stop manageable. ...but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Whilst that is unacceptable, I don't think any particular demographic can be singled out for pushing - I've witnessed people of all ages doing it and seen trolleys and sticks used in an aggressive manner where it comes to boarding! |
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Post by vjaska on May 30, 2019 0:02:26 GMT
Interesting topic I must say. I havnt seen much queueing in most cases - people tend to be fairly competitive fo get on so all etiquette goes out of the window It does happen - principally outside commuter stations where forming an orderly queue is a cultural norm. See the city bound bus stops at Waterloo or the stop outside Bromley South. Compare and contrast with boarding the P4 in Brixton! When I went to Hong Kong, they had a queuing system which consisted of route numbers and queue lines painted onto the ground, which seemed to work. But then on busy corridors, bus stop staggering is in another dimension to make the number of routes serving each stop manageable. ...but what persuaded her to share her thoughts was the site of an old man with a stick getting pushed out of the way by three teenage girls. Whilst that is unacceptable, I don't think any particular demographic can be singled out for pushing - I've witnessed people of all ages doing it and seen trolleys and sticks used in an aggressive manner where it comes to boarding! I've lost count the amount of times I'm the first person there waiting for a P4 (usually due to me just missing one) but rarely get on first. Queuing has certainly gone out of the window in most areas of London though as you & others mention, certain parts & routes have somewhat still got the system in place. Outside of London, queuing is still very much the norm and very rarely have I see a lack of queuing - a very notable example was the long queue for the 700 in Worthing last Wednesday  |
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Post by rif153 on May 31, 2019 18:05:40 GMT
It does happen - principally outside commuter stations where forming an orderly queue is a cultural norm. See the city bound bus stops at Waterloo or the stop outside Bromley South. Compare and contrast with boarding the P4 in Brixton! When I went to Hong Kong, they had a queuing system which consisted of route numbers and queue lines painted onto the ground, which seemed to work. But then on busy corridors, bus stop staggering is in another dimension to make the number of routes serving each stop manageable. Whilst that is unacceptable, I don't think any particular demographic can be singled out for pushing - I've witnessed people of all ages doing it and seen trolleys and sticks used in an aggressive manner where it comes to boarding! I've lost count the amount of times I'm the first person there waiting for a P4 (usually due to me just missing one) but rarely get on first. Queuing has certainly gone out of the window in most areas of London though as you & others mention, certain parts & routes have somewhat still got the system in place. Outside of London, queuing is still very much the norm and very rarely have I see a lack of queuing - a very notable example was the long queue for the 700 in Worthing last Wednesday I sympathise with you. I was barged out of the way when trying to board the 12 today but a few weeks ago I was using a bus in Reading and there was an orderley queue |
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Post by ServerKing on Jun 1, 2019 7:09:14 GMT
Redvers Road and the 243 are worst for this, the surge onto the bus is like there's not been a bus for days  it's worse than a tube strike day. Even though the service is regular, it's each man for himself now. It's the same when the Job Centre first opens for sign on day for some  |
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Post by rugbyref on Jun 1, 2019 7:56:33 GMT
I have been known to spread elbows to allow an elderly queueing passenger to board, whilst holding back the astonished teenagers.
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Post by John tuthill on Jun 1, 2019 8:06:06 GMT
I have been known to spread elbows to allow an elderly queueing passenger to board, whilst holding back the astonished teenagers. Can't remember the exact date, but I think this was the day that, respect, civility and good manners died. I'd like to think that whoever came up with this, is suffering on everyones behalf. Manners cost you nothing.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 8:43:24 GMT
I have been known to spread elbows to allow an elderly queueing passenger to board, whilst holding back the astonished teenagers. Can't remember the exact date, but I think this was the day that, respect, civility and good manners died. I'd like to think that whoever came up with this, is suffering on everyones behalf. Manners cost you nothing. Very off topic I know but a major bug bear of mine is when people can't even be bothered to hold a door open as you going towards them and it just gets let go in your face. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 9:20:48 GMT
Can't remember the exact date, but I think this was the day that, respect, civility and good manners died. I'd like to think that whoever came up with this, is suffering on everyones behalf. Manners cost you nothing. Very off topic I know but a major bug bear of mine is when people can't even be bothered to hold a door open as you going towards them and it just gets let go in your face. Oddly enough I never seem to encounter all these probems................it does become a bit of a whingfest on here sometimes 
On a more positive note my elderly mother has often mentioned the kindness she's had from total strangers, including teenagers, when using the buses 
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it's worse than a tube strike day. Even though the service is regular, it's each man for himself now. It's the same when the Job Centre first opens for sign on day for some 
