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Post by route53 on Jul 16, 2019 15:26:12 GMT
Here’s how I’d like to see the Southeastern (and Thameslink services) ran:
GREENWICH/NORTH KENT LINES:
- Thameslink service, Rainham to Luton, all stops to Gravesend, then Greenhithe, Dartford, Abbey Wood, Woolwich A., Charlton, Blackheath, Lewisham, fast to London Bridge then onto Luton,
- 6tph on the Greenwich line from Cannon Street, 2tph to Gravesend all stops, 2tph to Bexleyheath line, 2tph to Sidcup line.
BEXLEYHEATH LINE:
- 4tph to Cannon Street, 2tph from Greenwich line, 2tph from Dartford,
- 2tph to Charing Cross from Gravesend.
SIDCUP LINE: - 4tph to Charing Cross, 2tph from Rainham, all stations to Dartford, then Crayford, Bexley, Sidcup then fast to London Bridge, 2tph from Gravesend all stations to Hither Green then fast to London Bridge
- 2tph to Victoria, all stops, this would be the service from Cannon Street via Greenwich line.
GROVE PARK LINE: - 2tph Cannon Street to Orpington
- 2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks, fast to Hither Green
- 3tph Bromley shuttle
HAYES LINE: 2tph Charing Cross to Beckenham Junction, calling at Lewisham
2tph Charing Cross to Hayes, not calling at Lewisham
2tph Victoria to Hayes
PENGE EAST LINE: 4tph Victoria to Bromley North, 2tph continue to Orpington
2tph Blackfriars to Beckenham Junction.
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Post by route53 on Jul 16, 2019 17:57:03 GMT
That would cause an unusual situation in which a TfL line will go further out of London than the national rail lines, when it’s usually the other way around. Also I doubt that the Gravesend CrossRail extension will happen any time soon, if ever, if it does it’ll probably be way down the TfL list of priorities after the Silvertown Tunnel, DLR to Thamesmead, CrossRail 2 aka Chelney line, Northern line split, Bakerloo extension, etc I’m guessing it’ll be the 2040s, early 2050s before we get anywhere on that front. I suspect you’re largely right. There is also the GOBLIN proposed extension to Barking Riverside and possibly beyond. Of all the other proposals, I don’t think we’ll see Crossrail 2 or a Northern line split anytime remotely soon. Not even sure the Bakerloo extension will happen either. DLR to Thamesmead/Abbey Wood and Overground to Barking Riverside seem the only proposals to me railway wise that have any chance of happening soon, but this is all now way off topic. The Bakerloo extension will happen but in the mid 2030s, howeverit won’t go much further south east than Lewisham.
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Post by rif153 on Jul 16, 2019 21:23:30 GMT
I think Crossrail continuing down the North Kent Line to the Medway Towns would be great, it'd provide the Southeastern services with some much needed relief, and if Crossrail were to be exetnded to Gravesend then the Slade Green stop on the Medway service should be withdraw. I do recongnise that Crossrail to Gravesend won't happen for another thirty/forty years at the minimmum
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 16, 2019 21:24:40 GMT
I suspect you’re largely right. There is also the GOBLIN proposed extension to Barking Riverside and possibly beyond. Of all the other proposals, I don’t think we’ll see Crossrail 2 or a Northern line split anytime remotely soon. Not even sure the Bakerloo extension will happen either. DLR to Thamesmead/Abbey Wood and Overground to Barking Riverside seem the only proposals to me railway wise that have any chance of happening soon, but this is all now way off topic. The Bakerloo extension will happen but in the mid 2030s, howeverit won’t go much further south east than Lewisham. I hope you’re right about the Bakerloo to Lewisham, but I have a feeling TfL will cite financial issues and shelve the whole project.
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Post by sid on Jul 17, 2019 12:11:34 GMT
The Bakerloo extension will happen but in the mid 2030s, howeverit won’t go much further south east than Lewisham. I hope you’re right about the Bakerloo to Lewisham, but I have a feeling TfL will cite financial issues and shelve the whole project. It's been talked about since the 1970s at least so who knows? I think it should go to Hayes/Beckenham Junction thus freeing up capacity for enhancements on other routes between Lewisham and London Bridge. The only downside is that the Mid Kent Line would no longer be available as a diversionary route.
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Post by route53 on Jul 21, 2019 17:57:31 GMT
Another thing about South Eastern is if the Overground ever expands to this neck of the woods, where’s the dividing line between metro and regional services?
The main line is obvious since LO won’t take over services to Hastings or Ramsgate, but what about the Sidcup fasts to Gravesend? It was easier before because the fast ran via Lewisham and Woolwich and went much further out to Gillingham, only this has been “solved” by GTR because they claim that the Medway trains are simply “metro” service (way outside the M25 I might add) but is Gravesend a metro or regional service?
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Post by route53 on Jul 21, 2019 18:02:06 GMT
I hope you’re right about the Bakerloo to Lewisham, but I have a feeling TfL will cite financial issues and shelve the whole project. It's been talked about since the 1970s at least so who knows? I think it should go to Hayes/Beckenham Junction thus freeing up capacity for enhancements on other routes between Lewisham and London Bridge. The only downside is that the Mid Kent Line would no longer be available as a diversionary route. Haven’t Bromley council actively fought against any Bakerloo extension to Hayes because of local concerns of increased journey times into Central London? Hence why it’s unofficially been scaled back to Lewisham? It may reach Catford or Sydenham however, I can understand Hayes line users reluctance in having a relatively quick semi fast journey to Charing Cross replaced by a smaller Bakerloo line train which will take much longer, I do also understand that capacity on the SEML would be freed up in the event of an extension.
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Post by sid on Jul 21, 2019 18:59:20 GMT
It's been talked about since the 1970s at least so who knows? I think it should go to Hayes/Beckenham Junction thus freeing up capacity for enhancements on other routes between Lewisham and London Bridge. The only downside is that the Mid Kent Line would no longer be available as a diversionary route. Haven’t Bromley council actively fought against any Bakerloo extension to Hayes because of local concerns of increased journey times into Central London? Hence why it’s unofficially been scaled back to Lewisham? It may reach Catford or Sydenham however, I can understand Hayes line users reluctance in having a relatively quick semi fast journey to Charing Cross replaced by a smaller Bakerloo line train which will take much longer, I do also understand that capacity on the SEML would be freed up in the event of an extension. I don't really see how the Bakerloo Line is going to take much longer and obviously it offers the benefit of serving more of Central London. It's probably commuters that aren't happy about having to change for London Bridge. The trains will obviously be smaller but they'll be more frequent.
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Post by MrMaguire on Jul 24, 2019 19:54:58 GMT
Something I would really love to see is class 365s on the south eastern again, just like during the Connex days.
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Post by route53 on Jul 25, 2019 7:46:47 GMT
Something I would really love to see is class 365s on the south eastern again, just like during the Connex days. These were amazing trains. They generally operated the regional and main line services, a few of them used to be seen of the old Gillingham semi fasts via Woolwich and Lewisham
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Post by route53 on Jul 25, 2019 7:50:20 GMT
Would there be any benefits in splitting Southeastern into two rail companies?
The traditional South Eastern railway and the LCDR from Victoria?
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Post by route53 on Jul 26, 2019 13:33:22 GMT
Was speaking to a friend of mine he reckons if London gets a Tory mayor next year then and the Tory government (if it’s still in power by then) would allow TfL to take over SE.
I doubt it as the network seems too complex for LO to want to take it over, for one thing Lewisham is a mess, also vocal residents want a choice between terminals and not have a “one line one terminal” type of service, then there’s the issue with the regional services, one Gravesend service is semi fast via Sidcup, the other two are all stations one via Bexleyheath, the other is the Thameslink via Woolwich/Greenwich.
It just seems that TfL may find the network too much of a hassle, I can however see them taking over Southern services which don’t serve East Croydon.
Don’t quite see the obsession with South London being turned orange in my opinion, the original network (The ELL, The SLL, The NLL, The WLL, GOBlin and Euston to Watford) was much more of a straight forward network, since the Lea Valley lines have been included the lines look like a messy network.
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Post by M1104 on Oct 12, 2019 16:04:18 GMT
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Post by route53 on Oct 13, 2019 11:19:44 GMT
Geoff Marshall basically implied that the extended Bakerloo to Hayes would run alongside existing SE services??? I thought that the Bakerloo would take over the entire Hayes Line? To be honest I’m not entirely in favour of the Bakerloo Line being extended to Hayes.
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Post by busaholic on Oct 13, 2019 13:52:03 GMT
Geoff Marshall basically implied that the extended Bakerloo to Hayes would run alongside existing SE services??? I thought that the Bakerloo would take over the entire Hayes Line? To be honest I’m not entirely in favour of the Bakerloo Line being extended to Hayes. Given that far more Bakerloo Line trains would be arriving at Lewisham from the West End than could be easily accommodated on the Hayes line, even if a proportion diverted to Beckenham Junction, I'd be incredulous if S.E. services also continued that way.
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