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Post by route53 on Jul 26, 2019 13:24:55 GMT
The 53 via Blackheath has been running since 1952, however until that point it was the 53A, the main 53 was the precursor to the 177 in a way as it ran via New Charlton, East Greenwich and Greenwich rather than Charlton Village and Blackheath, this first 53 started service in 1937. The 89 is quite an old route as well, when my family lived in Shooters Hill we had a neighbour who had lived this his whole life, he remembers getting on the 89 down to Westerham via Lewisham and Bromley in the late 1920s/early 1930s and in WW2 his best friends brother was killed when a rocket struck the 89 bus on near Woolwich Common The 53 via New Charlton and East Greenwich has its origins going back to before the First World War, so it didn't start in 1937, but over two decades earlier. Today's 53 via Charlton Village was originally numbered 53A which started in October 1939. It formed part of a scheme which withdrew a route numbered 48 running between Blackheath, Royal Stanard and Golders Green via Deptford, New Cross, Old Kent Road, Waterloo Bridge, Trafalgar Square, Charing Cross Road, Oxford Street, Baker Street and Finchley Road. The 48 was predominantly operated by Plumstead Garage so there would have been a fair few garage journeys via Charlton Village and Woolwich. As already mentioned the 53A was renumbered 53 in the autumn of 1952 following the dewise of the 'parent' 53 in July of the same year. Wow so the 53 is basically 100 years old! Shame we don’t commemorate bus routes in the Same way we celebrate the tubes, iconic routes like the 53, 38, 15 etc should be celebrated |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 26, 2019 14:22:16 GMT
A precursor to the 122 (163 I think it was) ran from Bexleyheath following the current 422 route to Woolwich, then followed the 122 route to Crystal Palace before heading to Victoria via West Norwood, Tulse Hill, Brixton, Kennington and Millbank!!! Honestly the most bizarre route ever to grace our London streets! Yes Eltham has often been a testing ground for bizarre, circuitous routes it seems with the 89 & 61 routings in the past, I’ve always thought that the 314 was a strange but useful route,m. The route number wasn't 163 it was the 186. That started in July 1952 between Woolwich and Crystal Palace via today's 122. It replaced tram route 72 between Woolwich and Lewisham and the the 94 between there and Crystal Palace. Around 1956/7, the 186 was extended on Monday to Saturday to Victoria via today's route 432 to Brixton and then today's route 2. J In the course of its 12 year life it operated from a number of garages, including Abbey Wood, Catford, New Cross and Norwood. The 186 was withdrawn in July 1964 being replaced by an extension of the 122 from Woolwich to Crystal Palace. At the same time the 122 was extended from Bexleyheath to Slade Green on Monday to Saturday. This followed the opening of a new bridge across the railway which replaced the level crossing. Route 163 also started in July 1952 running between Plumstead Common and Victoria Emabnkment via Woolwich, Charlton (lower road), Greenwich, New Cross, Peckham, Camberwell, Kennington and Westminster. It replaced the old 53 between Plumstead Common and Greenwich and tram route 40 between Woolwich and Embankment. It underwent a number of changes, spawning a Sunday replacement, 163A which ran between Camberwell Green and Woodlands Estate, later to Abbey Wood via Abbey Estate in the years 1959- 1966. In 1965 it was extended on Monday to Friday from Westminster to Parliament Hill Fields via Charing Cross Road, Tottenham Court Road and Camden Town. Over the years the 163 had been mainly operated by New Cross, although Camberwell and Walworth (I forget which) also operated it at times. It was withdrawn completely in January 1970 severing the link between Greenwich/Deptford and Peckham, only restored when the 177 was diverted to Peckham in recent time. Ted B Some personal observations on the 186. My two bus spotting places of choice near to home were Well Hall (bus) Station and the Yorkshire Grey at Eltham Green, the latter chosen so I could see the 186s. Unlike the tram replacement 182, a remakably reliable route with no bunching that I ever saw, the 186 was all over the place, particularly towards Woolwich, with many of the buses NOT operated by Abbey Wood garage getting terminated at Eltham Green or Well Hall Roundabout. They really did arrive in threes, followed by quite a gap! Seeing buses from N always seemed odd, as Norwood has rarely over the decades operated far into S.E. London, and didn't for long then! With regard to the 163, I'm afraid changing travel patterns did for it, along with much higher frequencies on parallel routes. I went with my grandfather to the Oval for cricket, but spent a lot of my time looking into Harleyford Road at the buses and, outside the peak, the 163s used to carry fresh air, to echo the phrase beloved of a few on here! |
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Post by Ted Barclay on Jul 26, 2019 16:11:45 GMT
The route number wasn't 163 it was the 186. That started in July 1952 between Woolwich and Crystal Palace via today's 122. It replaced tram route 72 between Woolwich and Lewisham and the the 94 between there and Crystal Palace. Around 1956/7, the 186 was extended on Monday to Saturday to Victoria via today's route 432 to Brixton and then today's route 2. J In the course of its 12 year life it operated from a number of garages, including Abbey Wood, Catford, New Cross and Norwood. The 186 was withdrawn in July 1964 being replaced by an extension of the 122 from Woolwich to Crystal Palace. At the same time the 122 was extended from Bexleyheath to Slade Green on Monday to Saturday. This followed the opening of a new bridge across the railway which replaced the level crossing. Route 163 also started in July 1952 running between Plumstead Common and Victoria Emabnkment via Woolwich, Charlton (lower road), Greenwich, New Cross, Peckham, Camberwell, Kennington and Westminster. It replaced the old 53 between Plumstead Common and Greenwich and tram route 40 between Woolwich and Embankment. It underwent a number of changes, spawning a Sunday replacement, 163A which ran between Camberwell Green and Woodlands Estate, later to Abbey Wood via Abbey Estate in the years 1959- 1966. In 1965 it was extended on Monday to Friday from Westminster to Parliament Hill Fields via Charing Cross Road, Tottenham Court Road and Camden Town. Over the years the 163 had been mainly operated by New Cross, although Camberwell and Walworth (I forget which) also operated it at times. It was withdrawn completely in January 1970 severing the link between Greenwich/Deptford and Peckham, only restored when the 177 was diverted to Peckham in recent time. Ted B Some personal observations on the 186. My two bus spotting places of choice near to home were Well Hall (bus) Station and the Yorkshire Grey at Eltham Green, the latter chosen so I could see the 186s. Unlike the tram replacement 182, a remakably reliable route with no bunching that I ever saw, the 186 was all over the place, particularly towards Woolwich, with many of the buses NOT operated by Abbey Wood garage getting terminated at Eltham Green or Well Hall Roundabout. They really did arrive in threes, followed by quite a gap! Seeing buses from N always seemed odd, as Norwood has rarely over the decades operated far into S.E. London, and didn't for long then! With regard to the 163, I'm afraid changing travel patterns did for it, along with much higher frequencies on parallel routes. I went with my grandfather to the Oval for cricket, but spent a lot of my time looking into Harleyford Road at the buses and, outside the peak, the 163s used to carry fresh air, to echo the phrase beloved of a few on here! Sorry to spoil your anecdote, but you would have needed good vision to see a 163 in Harleyford Road, as it went from Camberwell New Road into Kennington Park Road and then left at the 'Horns' into Kennnington Road! |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 26, 2019 20:32:48 GMT
Some personal observations on the 186. My two bus spotting places of choice near to home were Well Hall (bus) Station and the Yorkshire Grey at Eltham Green, the latter chosen so I could see the 186s. Unlike the tram replacement 182, a remakably reliable route with no bunching that I ever saw, the 186 was all over the place, particularly towards Woolwich, with many of the buses NOT operated by Abbey Wood garage getting terminated at Eltham Green or Well Hall Roundabout. They really did arrive in threes, followed by quite a gap! Seeing buses from N always seemed odd, as Norwood has rarely over the decades operated far into S.E. London, and didn't for long then! With regard to the 163, I'm afraid changing travel patterns did for it, along with much higher frequencies on parallel routes. I went with my grandfather to the Oval for cricket, but spent a lot of my time looking into Harleyford Road at the buses and, outside the peak, the 163s used to carry fresh air, to echo the phrase beloved of a few on here! Sorry to spoil your anecdote, but you would have needed good vision to see a 163 in Harleyford Road, as it went from Camberwell New Road into Kennington Park Road and then left at the 'Horns' into Kennnington Road! Darn! Actually, the route I remember was the 276, the relatively new one then that had the silver RM on it, RM 664. That definitely carried fresh air, and unfortunately didn't last too long as a result. I suppose it was the 148 of its day, with new connections, or it would have been if it had lasted! |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 27, 2019 13:42:12 GMT
With the 61 from Eltham to Bromley North via Orpington as well, we never seemed to have straightforward routes in Eltham - probably encouraged my enthusiasm.  A precursor to the 122 (163 I think it was) ran from Bexleyheath following the current 422 route to Woolwich, then followed the 122 route to Crystal Palace before heading to Victoria via West Norwood, Tulse Hill, Brixton, Kennington and Millbank!!! Honestly the most bizarre route ever to grace our London streets! Yes Eltham has often been a testing ground for bizarre, circuitous routes it seems with the 89 & 61 routings in the past, I’ve always thought that the 314 was a strange but useful route,m. Possibly the last word on this one, or, as Ted Barclay corrected, the 186 from Woolwich to Victoria, but I can see you're interested in where bus routes go and why certain places are directly connected, whereas others aren't and never have been. The history of the Crystal Palace to Lewisham link is that in 1934 (and probably prior to that) it was provided by the 49 all the way from Shepherds Bush, so going across Crystal Palace. In 1935, a new route 94 (and you can see why that number was chosen!) started from Crystal Palace to Lewisham and then over what is now the 261 to Bromley and 208 to Southborough: it initially had a partial AK (Streatham) allocation. In 1952, on withdrawal of the last tram routes, the opportunity was taken by London Transport to link the Crystal Palace to Lewisham bit to a less circuitous and more logical routeing over the former 72 tram route via Westhorne Avenue to Woolwich: it deprived Westhorne Avenue residents of a direct tram route to central London, but everywhere else retained it via Eltham. It was a rare case of a significant and innovative development at the actual time of tram to bus replacement rather than a straightforward replication. I was only a young kid, and can only vaguely remember the trams, but the 186 seemed a pretty busy route south of Lewisham at any rate. Then, in 1957, the 186 got extended to Victoria via Tulse Hill direct, as far as I can ascertain the first bus route through this large housing area, so providing that cross-Crystal Palace link again for the first time since 1935, even though in a different direction this time. Looking at the 'red book' timetable for the extension, plus noting the garage allocations, it's clear that only half at most of the 186s arriving from the Woolwich direction headed off down Westow Hill. Norwood only had a very small allocation, so no wonder I never saw many at Eltham Green, and some of those must have formed the basis of the Stockwell to Norwood Garage peak hour shorts that supplemented the main service. 1964 saw the 186's withdrawal, replaced by the 122 and new 2B over the sections east of and west of Crystal Palace respectively. I wonder how many made use of that connection across Crystal Palace, which afaik was the only one from early postwar days until about twenty years ago. I do feel that a connection between Streatham and Sydenham or Penge has long been needed if further cross- CP links were being considered. |
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Post by londonboy71 on Jul 27, 2019 16:46:05 GMT
Seems to me most of the contributors in this site are from South London. I was born in Hackney brought up in Stoke Newington before it got posh then live d in East Ham Ealing Tottenham now back in Ealing again. Marriage and divorce has a lot to answer for. My routes were 76 for school 73 for West End 106 local and EN251 for Southend
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Post by riverside on Jul 27, 2019 20:46:33 GMT
I like the 90’s and all the variants Hammersmith , Chiswick, Richmond, Kew , Twickenham, Hanworth, Feltham, Sunbury, Ashford, Stanies, Hayes, Harlington, Yeading, Northolt and (once’j South Harrow. All these areas have historic connections with being served by a variation of the route 90. Of course now we have the 90,190,290 and 490. In the past there has been the 90,90A,90B and 90C. The only section of these former routes not served by a 90 variation is the Sandycoombe Road bit in Kew, but comes close, as it’s the 391. It is interesting how the '90s' have been shuffled around. The present 90 is part of the old 90B, the 190 is really the 290, the 290 is really the 90 and the 490 is the other part of the 90B. |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 27, 2019 21:11:11 GMT
Seems to me most of the contributors in this site are from South London. We have plenty of people from all parts of London - there are groups of people on here from east, west & north London as well. |
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Post by kmkcheng on Jul 27, 2019 22:10:15 GMT
Seems to me most of the contributors in this site are from South London. We have plenty of people from all parts of London - there are groups of people on here from east, west & north London as well. And beyond as well with some from outside London, with me being one of those non-Londoners although only just, as I’m just over the border in Herts |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 27, 2019 22:19:33 GMT
We have plenty of people from all parts of London - there are groups of people on here from east, west & north London as well. And beyond as well with some from outside London, with me being one of those non-Londoners although only just, as I’m just over the border in Herts Yes a very true point you make  |
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Post by londonboy71 on Jul 27, 2019 23:09:01 GMT
And beyond as well with some from outside London, with me being one of those non-Londoners although only just, as I’m just over the border in Herts Yes a very true point you make Well maybe South East Londoners are more proactive on here.lots about Eltham Woilwich C Palace Lewisham. Anyway its just an observation |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 28, 2019 0:54:28 GMT
Yes a very true point you make Well maybe South East Londoners are more proactive on here.lots about Eltham Woilwich C Palace Lewisham. Anyway its just an observation Only very recently, there was a debate regarding the tender win of the 25 & 425 of which the majority was undertaken by the members from East London whilst there was also a debate on a couple of things Metroline related undertaken by West Londoners on here. I just thought I'd let you know you given you might be interested in those topics especially as you mentioned you've lived in a number of places in London |
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Post by route53 on Jul 28, 2019 9:10:53 GMT
Yes a very true point you make Well maybe South East Londoners are more proactive on here.lots about Eltham Woilwich C Palace Lewisham. Anyway its just an observation That and also we don’t exactly have many tube lines to talk about ;-) |
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Post by busaholic on Jul 28, 2019 11:57:09 GMT
Well maybe South East Londoners are more proactive on here.lots about Eltham Woilwich C Palace Lewisham. Anyway its just an observation That and also we don’t exactly have many tube lines to talk about ;-) The bus has greater importance relative to other forms of public transport in S.E. London than in other parts of London, which characteristic isn't going to change within the lifetimes of many on here, certainly not me. It was why in post-GLC days the most senior bus route planner in LT was always responsible for South London routes, which for these purposes basically included routes east of Putney and Wimbledon, also why the last trams, with their passenger-gobbling capabilities, ran there. I haven't lived in S.E. London for over 30 years, but I'll always be a S.E. Londoner at heart and speak up for it. I've never lived in another part of London either, though there are other areas I'm fond of and a particular one I worked in for yonks I had an affinity for, but could never have afforded to live there! Now, even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford a hovel in virtually any part of London. I feel very sorry for the young in London, especially those not from affluent families. |
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Post by londonboy71 on Jul 28, 2019 16:06:39 GMT
That and also we don’t exactly have many tube lines to talk about ;-) The bus has greater importance relative to other forms of public transport in S.E. London than in other parts of London, which characteristic isn't going to change within the lifetimes of many on here, certainly not me. It was why in post-GLC days the most senior bus route planner in LT was always responsible for South London routes, which for these purposes basically included routes east of Putney and Wimbledon, also why the last trams, with their passenger-gobbling capabilities, ran there. I haven't lived in S.E. London for over 30 years, but I'll always be a S.E. Londoner at heart and speak up for it. I've never lived in another part of London either, though there are other areas I'm fond of and a particular one I worked in for yonks I had an affinity for, but could never have afforded to live there! Now, even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford a hovel in virtually any part of London. I feel very sorry for the young in London, especially those not from affluent families. I'm 72 from Hackney when it was poor I now live in Ealing much more relatively wealthier area but I'll always be an Eastender. |
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