rml1969
Conductor
Adolescent & Youth Worker - OWR Driver
Posts: 69
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Post by rml1969 on Nov 24, 2019 3:52:54 GMT
The purpose of this thread is to discuss my personal and others views about the foreseeable and long term future of London.
As we are all aware of the population is increasing continuously, therefore it will be wise to know what precautions TFL and local councils have implemented to cater for the capital city.
So far as tonight I have commuted on the Underground (Central & Jubilee lines) which both were a total chaos to commute on. For a second it felt like I was returning home from work during rush hour. Not to dismiss that the festive season has begun and we have New Year around the corner.
Another topic that I would like to touch is main roads being reduced to less lanes, for example tonight I passed Jamaica Road all the way down to the Rotherhithe Roundabout. My view is that it looks like a disaster and I fail to accept that once completed it will improve traffic regulation and conditions. Many more roads both in London and outside are suffering with reduced lanes.
I will be delighted to hear your views.
Regards
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 10:03:27 GMT
The purpose of this thread is to discuss my personal and others views about the foreseeable and long term future of London. As we are all aware of the population is increasing continuously, therefore it will be wise to know what precautions TFL and local councils have implemented to cater for the capital city. So far as tonight I have commuted on the Underground (Central & Jubilee lines) which both were a total chaos to commute on. For a second it felt like I was returning home from work during rush hour. Not to dismiss that the festive season has begun and we have New Year around the corner. Another topic that I would like to touch is main roads being reduced to less lanes, for example tonight I passed Jamaica Road all the way down to the Rotherhithe Roundabout. My view is that it looks like a disaster and I fail to accept that once completed it will improve traffic regulation and conditions. Many more roads both in London and outside are suffering with reduced lanes. I will be delighted to hear your views. Regards *cough* I hear Lea Bridge Road and Waltham Forest is bad for road space! *cough* |
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Post by busaholic on Nov 24, 2019 12:04:39 GMT
On the one hand, there is not enough money to spend on vital infrastructure projects, yet on the other there is enough to indulge special interest groups like the cycling lobby who, let's be frank, will never be satisfied with what is being done for them, nor will ever as a group have to pay an extra penny for them.In the meantime the political parties are awash with bribes (most of them delusional) to achieve nirvana if you'd only vote their colour in. Nicola Sturgeon is the only grown up in the room, and most of us can't even vote for her! P.S. Better say this, I guess - I've nothing whatever against cycling, and if I was able to there's nothing (well, almost  ) I'd rather do than jump on a bike and pedal, but so many do not have this option, some never and many others not when they're going to work. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Nov 24, 2019 12:24:17 GMT
So far as tonight I have commuted on the Underground (Central & Jubilee lines) which both were a total chaos to commute on. For a second it felt like I was returning home from work during rush hour. Not to dismiss that the festive season has begun and we have New Year around the corner. I got that feeling on the Night Tube. Waited 24 minutes for a Picc train at Turnpike Lane from 00:40 this AM and it was rammed, as was the Vic train I switched to at Finsbury Park. What I find crazy is all the developments springing up on the south/east section of the Jubilee Line and ELL for that matter. They are not coping with demand at the moment yet thousands more homes are planned in the near vicinity of the stations. I try not to use the Jubilee Line after work, but on the occasion I have to, waiting times in the PM peak to get on a train at Southwark can be up to 20 minutes! |
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 27, 2019 13:54:14 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense.
The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years.
All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic of Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 27, 2019 18:31:51 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense. The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years. All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic or Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases. The other issues that London has is a lack of policy in regards to significantly cutting congestion which continues to allow car usage to grow and a lack of planning in regards to traffic growth - basically, a do absolutely nothing approach apart from meddling with trivial things like implementing borough wide 20mph limits, uneccesary speed bumps & traffic lights and parking within bus lanes. Coupled with the lack of planning in the 50's which resulted in some of the ringway idea actually being built (Croydon having a ring road on three sides with it funneling into single lane roads) and motorways ending abruptly in the middle of nowhere (hello M23) and it's very easy to see why the future looks bleak. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Nov 27, 2019 23:49:08 GMT
I’m growing sick of the place. Too many people with more coming. The transport will soon not be able to cope. We need a second metropolis. We need a second ‘London’ - with a good range of public transport options. So many of our other cities don’t have well integrated transport systems. We need another large financial hub. It doesn’t help with London victim to these soulless developers building fancy flats for Chinese investors, who shouldn’t have any business using properties for Londoners as safety deposit boxes. Bus travel will be on the decline even further, it’s more often than not mind-numbingly slow. People want their online deliveries. People want their Ubers, and Kaptens whilst moaning about climate change. How much can you upgrade the tube? The Jubilee line was planned to run 36tph, extra trains being built matching the original spec. The Northern line was also intended to get extra trains to increase the service overall, along with trains for the Battersea extension - now it seems we need to cut a bit out of the service somewhere on the line to facilitate the Battersea extension. The sub-surface is work in progress and going very slowly, overall with only a relatively minor upgrade in capacity for most of the lines. How many Crossrails, Bakerloo extensions and cycle lanes can you throw at a city? It all gets absorbed and you’re still in the same mess. NO MONEY I hear Lea Bridge Road and Waltham Forest is bad for road space! *cough* ...and pavement space - I don’t like the arrangements at Forest Road - half the pavement is now for the cyclists so you gotta hope you don’t end up behind a slow walker! |
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Post by busman on Jan 4, 2020 12:34:55 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense. The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years. All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic or Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases. Exactly this. I would argue that the UK is far too London-centric. Other large countries, like Germany for example, have multiple major cities with infrastructure in place attract major employers. Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich, Dusseldorf and Berlin are all major cities with a range of high value, high tech industries. In the UK we have a spread of good universities around the country which theoretically creates a good starting point for diverse local labour pools, but sadly many people have to relocate to London because this is where the jobs are. Opportunities in regions have been sacrificed at the expense of London, placing ridiculous demand for housing and services. In response we are building expensive pigeon-hole high rises, which IMHO will not age very well and will only treat the symptoms rather than the root cause of the problem. We have a growing population, with less road space, less green space and limited transport capacity. In my opinion the situation will only get worse. I feel the quality of life here has progressively gone downhill, a sentiment that is reflected in Quality of Life studies and the volumes of people moving out of the capital each year. The place is more crowded and it takes longer to get everywhere. This whole trend of building more housing and thinking everyone will simply cycle everywhere is just lunacy. We have a big fat river running through our city which can provide an excellent spine for fast and pleasant east-west bicycle travel, but no let’s stick them in narrow streets and remove bus lanes to accommodate this. There is no long term planning or practicality to this thinking. It’s all cheap, short term, lowest hanging fruit stuff. Why can’t we make cycling and public transport more attractive and keep traffic flowing as best as possible? Buses have become option of last resort for me these days. Slow journeys and reduced frequencies make family journeys a car affair. I didn’t learn how to drive until I was around 30, but these days I drive everywhere. Sitting on a bus stuck in traffic and then being regulated when the road is clear just annoys the heck out of me. Buses should have their own lanes and priority at junctions wherever possible. That’s not being done. Buses are seen in direct conflict to cycles and therefore classified as a source of danger that must be eliminated. Outside of London in Hertfordshire, Kent, Surrey and Hampshire I see wide pavements with allocated space for pedestrians and cyclists. Cyclists are separated from traffic and children cycle to school rather than take the bus. Of course, we have a scenario where we are losing pavement space to new developments and current paving space in some places is unable to cope with the increased footfall. The elephant in the room that no policy makers are talking about is the growth in London’s population. All these measures to keep London moving as sustainably as possible are just shuffling chairs on an ever shrinking deck until we address that problem. I’m a born and bred Londoner, but I dream of moving to Cornwall or near the Kent coast. The only thing that stops me is my concern about future employment opportunities. Another downstream issue I see is when the thousands of young new build apartment dwellers start having families and need more space and a garden for the kids to grow up in. This pent up demand will send house prices shooting up - particularly pre-2000 housing stock which tend to offer more sq m and an outdoor space worthy of being called a garden. Space is a finite capacity and London is maxed out. I hope to see the government invest heavily in improving infrastructure in cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield to make them more attractive for a diverse range of large industries and thereby more attractive places to live. The likes of Google, Monzo etc shouldn’t be confined to London. We need to spread opportunities more evenly around the country. Not only will this temper the excessive demand and reliance on London, but it will help to even things up across the north-south divide. |
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Post by SILENCED on Jan 4, 2020 12:50:16 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense. The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years. All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic or Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases. The other option is to do nothing and let congestion get worse. The trouble is most of London's infrastructure is Victorian ... It really needs to be ripped up and started again to make this a city fit for the 21st century rather than letting the 19th century hold us back. Basically all A roads need to be 4 lane, with major trunk routes having an elevated light rail running along it. Never be done though, as we don't like change in this country ... resulting in change costing so much in this country. |
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Post by busman on Jan 4, 2020 13:03:44 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense. The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years. All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic or Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases. The other option is to do nothing and let congestion get worse. The trouble is most of London's infrastructure is Victorian ... It really needs to be ripped up and started again to make this a city fit for the 21st century rather than letting the 19th century hold us back. Never be done though, as we don't like change in this country ... resulting in change costing so much in this country. Completely agree. Much of our Victorian infrastructure is not fit for purpose. I look at Singapore and Malaysia and when things are no longer fit for purpose they simply knock it down and replace it with something better. I lament at our sentimental approach to things that are past their usefulness. We hold monuments in higher regard than the functional needs and sustainability issues people face today and in the future. I would rip up some of London’s narrow streets in a heartbeat. Not to create more space for cars, but to create properly segregated cycle paths at pavement level alongside bus lanes and lanes for regular traffic. Of course this will result in demolition of many houses and office spaces which are needed to support the current and projected population. Oh well 😔 |
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Post by SILENCED on Jan 4, 2020 13:11:41 GMT
The other option is to do nothing and let congestion get worse. The trouble is most of London's infrastructure is Victorian ... It really needs to be ripped up and started again to make this a city fit for the 21st century rather than letting the 19th century hold us back. Never be done though, as we don't like change in this country ... resulting in change costing so much in this country. Completely agree. Much of our Victorian infrastructure is not fit for purpose. I look at Singapore and Malaysia and when things are no longer fit for purpose they simply knock it down and replace it with something better. I lament at our sentimental approach to things that are past their usefulness. We hold monuments in higher regard than the functional needs and sustainability issues people face today and in the future. I would rip up some of London’s narrow streets in a heartbeat. Not to create more space for cars, but to create properly segregated cycle paths at pavement level alongside bus lanes and lanes for regular traffic. Of course this will result in demolition of many houses and office spaces which are needed to support the current and projected population. Oh well 😔 Agree, been to both Singapore and Malaysia ... Both places put London to shame. |
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Post by snowman on Jan 4, 2020 13:44:34 GMT
The thing is with roads in a densely populated urban area, the more you build, the more demand that encourages and the net result will mean that congestion is made worse because you will never be able to satisfy the demand by building large enough roads. People often refer to LA as an example of a motorway city that still suffers from horrific congestion but look at Dubai where 12+ motorways are common place, within the five years I was there, the traffic was horrendous for a city with half the population of London and far less dense. The issue with London partially lies with the fact that we in the UK are effectively missing our 2nd and 3rd cities. Statistically speaking a countries 2nd largest city should by around half the size of the largest city to maximise economic output, instead Birmingham is a million strong, nine times smaller than Greater London. The net effect of this is that we've spent billions on infrastructure projects in the last 25 years and the returns in terms of relieving capacity are buying us less and less time. It's said amongst planners that the Victoria line gave about 30 years of breathing space to the network as it coincided with a downturn in passenger numbers, the Jubilee Line Extension gave perhaps 15- 20 years and now Crossrail is predicted to provide relief for just 5-8 years. All this is symptomatic of just how imbalanced the country has become in terms of population density, the increasing expense and the short restibites current or future infrastructure projects offer show that we are pushing the limits of the transport network that this city has relied on for so long. The Underground network alone moves the population of the Republic or Ireland every day , the Bus network moves the equivalent population of Singapore. The capital city seems to be inexorably marching towards Mega-city status, and that is going to demand even more from a transport system that is already maxed out in many cases. The other option is to do nothing and let congestion get worse. The trouble is most of London's infrastructure is Victorian ... It really needs to be ripped up and started again to make this a city fit for the 21st century rather than letting the 19th century hold us back. Basically all A roads need to be 4 lane, with major trunk routes having an elevated light rail running along it. Never be done though, as we don't like change in this country ... resulting in change costing so much in this country. The Victorian infrastructure was very well built, the sewers, the railways, the tram network. The simple fact that so much still in use 120-150 years later is testament to that. The problem is the new suburbs and the regeneration zones have had piecemeal infrastructure. The roads are disjointed, there are sections that are good but 2 miles up the road there is a narrow flat junction. The Edwardians did a great job, building things like the Aldwych and tram subway but London has rather lost the plot since then (with exception of 1930s). The recent idea of removing road space (cycle lanes, and urban realm) has been disaster for the buses, as has closing loads of side turnings thus forcing other traffic onto bus routes. I don’t know how many former through roads are now blocked but must be something like 5000, each one forcing longer journeys which adds to congestion. I agree with the lack of second and third cities, although describing Birmingham as 1m and London as 9m is rather stretching definition. Can’t really exclude Dudley, Wolverhampton etc whilst bringing in places like Kingston and Bromley. If going to use Greater London then really need to compare to urban West Midlands. Personally I see London as becoming more congested and it will start to see population exodus again. Many companies are closing or downsizing London operations, whilst expanding in Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, etc. If Boris gets reckless with his anti Europe stance, he will drive multinational companies out, already many European companies are moving operations out. I actually feel he will throw money at the new Northern marginal consistencies rather than pay for more infrastructure in London. So London will choke itself. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 4, 2020 13:59:59 GMT
The other option is to do nothing and let congestion get worse. The trouble is most of London's infrastructure is Victorian ... It really needs to be ripped up and started again to make this a city fit for the 21st century rather than letting the 19th century hold us back. Never be done though, as we don't like change in this country ... resulting in change costing so much in this country. Completely agree. Much of our Victorian infrastructure is not fit for purpose. I look at Singapore and Malaysia and when things are no longer fit for purpose they simply knock it down and replace it with something better. I lament at our sentimental approach to things that are past their usefulness. We hold monuments in higher regard than the functional needs and sustainability issues people face today and in the future. I would rip up some of London’s narrow streets in a heartbeat. Not to create more space for cars, but to create properly segregated cycle paths at pavement level alongside bus lanes and lanes for regular traffic. Of course this will result in demolition of many houses and office spaces which are needed to support the current and projected population. Oh well 😔 Inevitably, any new or widening of an existing road will see its space taken by other traffic so I’m not convinced simply flattening everything to accommodate it will achieve anything productive. Equally, I’m not against new roads unlike environmentalists but only in some circumstances do I think they’re warranted such as bypasses. You can achieve more for public transport and allow cyclists alongside without having to demolish any amount of London (let the London Ringways be a lesson) - all it takes is a really radical policy shift further away from car usage (I believe it grew last year) which will only come about when the likes of TfL & government grow and pair and properly invest in buses starting with town centres and the nonsense of re-routing buses all over a town centre due to dubious pedestrian schemes - any wonder why a town centre like Brixton with little amounts of pedestrianisation and all main roads still intact despite plans to make one of these roads pedestrianised in the past, continues to thrives with transport directly serving the shops & workplaces of people. One thing we all at least agree on is the current policy is woeful at best. |
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Post by ServerKing on Jan 4, 2020 14:16:31 GMT
London will all become flats  |
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Post by busman on Jan 4, 2020 14:21:43 GMT
London will all become flats You mean “apartments” 😏 |
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) I'd rather do than jump on a bike and pedal, but so many do not have this option, some never and many others not when they're going to work.
