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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 6, 2020 23:53:24 GMT
The comments on this are hilarious. Pasted a few below
2. Posted by Biffo on 47 minutes ago Welcome to the world the rest of us live in......To much work, not enough time to do it in, and paid a fraction of what the big boys get. Life's just peachy.
7. Posted by Abe on 38 minutes ago How can they be exhausted? One comes along every 20 minutes, if you're lucky, and they're always waiting at bus stops to "regulate the service".
9. Posted by RonnieRocket on 36 minutes ago It's tough for everyone in the real world..!! I have nothing but contempt for this ridiculous claim Unite looking for any excuse to cause mayhem in the capital. If Bus drivers think they're badly off then I suggest they find alternate employment opportunities and allow people better suited to the job a chance to make the service better
10. Posted by Spolmit on 34 minutes ago I think most workers could argue that they are exhausted at times. I do not think this argument is going to get much sympathy.
17. Posted by notagain on 25 minutes ago Typical. Labour lost the election and now the Unions want to flex their power.
20. Posted by PeterT on 25 minutes ago I wonder how the hours that a bus driver works compares with those who are self employed?
22. Posted by Master Chief on 20 minutes ago So they want proper breaks and finishing shifts on time which will be difficult in London traffic. Sounds like they want more drivers and shorter shifts which translates into more drivers and shorter hours presumably. Because Mayor shortsightedly committed to freeze fares (to get the job) and he has no funds left to do this.
23. Posted by 20Dec on 19 minutes ago I do 60 hour weeks at my job and let me tell you I am exhausted all the time the only difference is I don't get paid London waiting nor do I have the option to strike - if u don't like it get another job simple um sure there are plenty who will take yours
27. Posted by Dave on 17 minutes ago At the end of the day, the Union don't care about safety, they just want the hours reduced so that drivers can get more overtime!
29. Posted by thatman on 18 minutes ago Whats the bet, that a significant pay rise will cure the drivers tiredness problems. They are only steering wheel attendants , sitting on their backside all day, isn't exactly, hard labour.
33. Posted by thatman on 8 minutes ago Never mind, all the buses will be self driving electric vehicles soon, then they can rest till their hearts content.
These Trolls are ridiculous š The mentality is I get paid Ship and have to work long hours so everyone else should , I really don't get it this is why collectively in the UK wages are low in a number of jobs which certainly could do with better pay especially in and around London compared to France were the whole country kicks up a stink if they don't like something I think we need to adapt more of that mentality here but back to topic , I think the 6/7days on the trot then two off is ridiculous and that ALL HGV/PCV drivers should follow the EU Drivers Hours yes it would be a pain in the harris for companies to work around etc but I don't see why you have different rules for different drivers is driving a Lorry on a Motorway no different from driving a Bus around town for 4.5 Hours If not worst ? Combine that with lates one week then 7 shifts on the trot 2 off then 7 earlies seems like s recipe for disaster , or I'm I wrong ? I wouldn't say they are trolls. Dare I say it, many people do not realise how lucky at times they can be in their job until they see it from another perspective. In one way I agree with when people bash another job, why should they get paid this, but then sit on their ass and do nothing to increase their own pay. Everytime we have strikes on the Underground we here how they are overpaid, its undemocratic, they are holding the city to ransom, they do not have strikes in Europe (when they clearly do) all the swear words at Union leaders.
What I believe should have been done in London was to have similar shift patterns as per Underground/Overground. You mention driving a bus for 4.5 hours, or say 5.5 hours as in UK, but on most routes it would never come to this as stand time is in place, where as in the HGV world they do not have stand time and would be literally driving 4 hours+ at the wheel without stopping.
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Post by redbus on Jan 6, 2020 23:57:12 GMT
I don't think TFL and Unite know what each other want tbh it's like a tug of war between the two at the moment there seems to be no solution I hope Mr Khan will talk to the union unlike his predecessor a certain Mr B Unite only do things when it suits them. So many matters over the years when drivers complain, it goes on death ears. Union membership is lower than ever down to things like this and it seems that Unite only do things for political gain. Khan may have a better relationship with Unite, but not with bus drivers... Ultimately if bus drivers don't belong to the union, then if the union calls a strike it will only have a limited effect unless they can persuade non members to strike as well. We are a long way from the 1970s where I remember W going on strike for 2 days due to the state of the toilets in the garage! That pretty much took out every W bus.
I would argue that the issue is that bus drivers are underpaid, if they were paid better there would not be a shortage of drivers because enough people would want to drive buses. If you have to do lots of overtime to keep your family and so are exhausted, that perhaps only backs up my point that bus drivers are underpaid. Drivers should be able to work normal hours and earn enough to keep their family.
The 'problem' with this 'obvious solution' is that the bus companies can't afford to pay what bus drivers arguably deserve to be paid, and TfL don't have the money either. I am afraid I can offer no easy solution as to where the money can come from to increase bus drivers pay.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 7, 2020 0:06:22 GMT
I'm not really familiar with this situation, but if drivers are complaining about long hours without adequate rest time then surely bus companies/TFL should recruit more drivers? This would allow existing drivers to be able to rest more and be replaced by others. It's probably not that transparent but I can't see another legitimate solution. If drivers desire to work more because the extra pay is needed for personal reasons then surely the 'exhaustion' should be expected? Unless the working conditions itself is a major concern then I don't see how a strike is justified. I'm happy to be enlightened on this matter. At the moment many cannot even fill the vacancies there let alone recruit additional drivers. Some companies in London have now even resorted to agency drivers to fill shortages. The shortages have got back to the early 2000's when many duties were going uncovered. In recent years the best it got was in the recession around 2010 when bus companies could have pick and chose and had waiting lists due to people being laid off from other City jobs. There are too many short routes which could have been joined to cut down on routes and save drivers. The zone 1 routes tend to be worst for accidents with so much to concentrate on. A lot of drivers do not want to do them anymore due to the nature of so much happening and higher stress levels. A lot of bus driver recently have left to go and work doing Uber but at times are even working longer hours than when they were driving a bus!
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Post by 6HP502C on Jan 7, 2020 0:11:24 GMT
So what is the solution? Reduce the hours and Unite will be complaining about the reduction in wages. There is no one solution. The union's members have far too many conflicting interests so one solution will never fit all. Quite a lot of drivers want to maximise the hours they work right up to the legal limit, work 13 days out of 14 by choice and prefer to work long shifts. Quite a lot also value work life balance, want to work reasonable shift lengths and don't volunteer to work on the 2 or 3 rest days they get a week. Some like doing spreadovers/split shifts. Going by the posters I've seen at garages I drive at, it is less to do with shift lengths and more to do with working conditions. I gather a big part of it is the desire for increased PVRs at all times to allow more running time and increased layovers. Less trips per duty and meal reliefs longer than the minimum which is usually 40 minutes (30 being the legal minimum). This would allow for more time to rest and take breathers from what is quite a stressful role. London's bus drivers handle the demanding job with admirable professionalism - and from the comments quoted, give off the impression it's an easy job when there's actually a lot of things to deal with at once. I empathise with the cause of easing conditions. When I was a full time U4/607 driver I found the nature of the role was tiring and required enhanced levels of discipline with respect to sleep. I found myself wondering how drivers have the energy to deal with responsibilities outside of work. I have a lot of respect for people who work shifts with the requisite lack of routine.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 7, 2020 0:32:12 GMT
Unite only do things when it suits them. So many matters over the years when drivers complain, it goes on death ears. Union membership is lower than ever down to things like this and it seems that Unite only do things for political gain. Khan may have a better relationship with Unite, but not with bus drivers... Ultimately if bus drivers don't belong to the union, then if the union calls a strike it will only have a limited effect unless they can persuade non members to strike as well. We are a long way from the 1970s where I remember W going on strike for 2 days due to the state of the toilets in the garage! That pretty much took out every W bus.
I would argue that the issue is that bus drivers are underpaid, if they were paid better there would not be a shortage of drivers because enough people would want to drive buses. If you have to do lots of overtime to keep your family and so are exhausted, that perhaps only backs up my point that bus drivers are underpaid. Drivers should be able to work normal hours and earn enough to keep their family.
The 'problem' with this 'obvious solution' is that the bus companies can't afford to pay what bus drivers arguably deserve to be paid, and TfL don't have the money either. I am afraid I can offer no easy solution as to where the money can come from to increase bus drivers pay.
It isn't even the pay, there are a lot that have left the job for lower paid jobs, but better social life. The further cutting into unsociable hours over the years has not helped. There is so much weekend working, late nights, early mornings, then some garages they cannot even park up cars and leaving/starting stupid o'clock. Then we have people wanting buses running on Christmas day without realising the impact. Not long ago Boxing day was request only, half duties and triple pay or Ā£500 whichever was higher, now most of that is gone out of the window. You say drivers should get more pay, but guess what, it is going to involve fare increases which we all know it not going to happen. The pay problem is more with new recruits than those in the job for years.
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Post by driver027 on Jan 7, 2020 1:26:56 GMT
I think the solution is to follow eu rules. Domestic have been outdated for quite some time now and donāt reflect the growing congestion and demands of companyās etc.
Iām now at nat ex stansted and we follow the EU Rules. Maximum of four days on (ability to do overtime if desired) with a whole two days off. The rotas are also far better. None of this rotating early/late crap. You can go on perm days/nights/earlies/middles/ultras etc. Multiple route rotas too. No more trying to find drivers to swap.
Even though the jobs are similar I actually feel like I have a life now and am not constantly exhausted moody etc etc.
And for those wondering our network is just as demanding as the buses. At nights, some of our services are more frequent than London buses!
PS oh and no f*cking spreads! And youāre paid from sign on to sign off
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 7, 2020 3:27:39 GMT
Overall this reminds me of the strike in 2014 over pay, what happened nothing... This is going the same way nothing. Overall to get two rest days together you pretty much have to work 6-7 days. A lot of drivers donāt like split rest days so cannot win here. Overall unless the law is changed about driving hours for buses and I would say lorries then nothing will change on this subject. In addition 20 Zones extend driving time because of running times. Overall the job is unattractive to newbies, most drivers complain daily, personally I just ignore those ones the ones been doing it 20+ years and complain saying thereās nothing better out there, but I if anyone wants to experience it donāt let it put you off from doing it, on a personal note If I was working with Go Ahead London or Stagecoach I would have resigned by now...
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 7, 2020 6:01:21 GMT
Overall this reminds me of the strike in 2014 over pay, what happened nothing... This is going the same way nothing. Overall to get two rest days together you pretty much have to work 6-7 days. A lot of drivers donāt like split rest days so cannot win here. Overall unless the law is changed about driving hours for buses and I would say lorries then nothing will change on this subject. In addition 20 Zones extend driving time because of running times. Overall the job is unattractive to newbies, most drivers complain daily, personally I just ignore those ones the ones been doing it 20+ years and complain saying thereās nothing better out there, but I if anyone wants to experience it donāt let it put you off from doing it, on a personal note If I was working with Go Ahead London or Stagecoach I would have resigned by now... What is bad about working conditions at Stagecoach & Go Ahead ? Don't some companies like Stagecoach at Thameside Rainham have a 4 day rota as opposed to the normal shift pattern ? Isn't this better as your working longer days but have more days off over the course of the week ? I think the thing is though you will always have people who want the overtime and will chase it whatever way you change rotas .
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Post by greenboy on Jan 7, 2020 7:03:42 GMT
So what is the solution? Reduce the hours and Unite will be complaining about the reduction in wages. I don't think TFL and Unite know what each other want tbh it's like a tug of war between the two at the moment there seems to be no solution I hope Mr Khan will talk to the union unlike his predecessor a certain Mr BĀ I'm not sure there is much the mayor can do about it, it's between operators and the union.
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Post by greenboy on Jan 7, 2020 7:25:19 GMT
So what is the solution? Reduce the hours and Unite will be complaining about the reduction in wages. There is no one solution. The union's members have far too many conflicting interests so one solution will never fit all. Quite a lot of drivers want to maximise the hours they work right up to the legal limit, work 13 days out of 14 by choice and prefer to work long shifts. Quite a lot also value work life balance, want to work reasonable shift lengths and don't volunteer to work on the 2 or 3 rest days they get a week. Some like doing spreadovers/split shifts. Going by the posters I've seen at garages I drive at, it is less to do with shift lengths and more to do with working conditions. I gather a big part of it is the desire for increased PVRs at all times to allow more running time and increased layovers. Less trips per duty and meal reliefs longer than the minimum which is usually 40 minutes (30 being the legal minimum). This would allow for more time to rest and take breathers from what is quite a stressful role. London's bus drivers handle the demanding job with admirable professionalism - and from the comments quoted, give off the impression it's an easy job when there's actually a lot of things to deal with at once. I empathise with the cause of easing conditions. When I was a full time U4/607 driver I found the nature of the role was tiring and required enhanced levels of discipline with respect to sleep. I found myself wondering how drivers have the energy to deal with responsibilities outside of work. I have a lot of respect for people who work shifts with the requisite lack of routine. As you say some drivers want to work all the hours going and like spread overs. I can understand people thinking it's an easy job, no physical work involved but it can be mentally draining especially going from late to early starts, shouldn't drivers be kept on permanent earlies lates and middles? There are similar concerns in the road haulage industry about driver fatigue but driving a lorry you can stop and have a rest if feeling tired something you can't do with a bus full of passengers. I can't see much coming out of this and strike action seems highly unlikely.
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Post by richard on Jan 7, 2020 9:11:08 GMT
I don't think TFL and Unite know what each other want tbh it's like a tug of war between the two at the moment there seems to be no solution I hope Mr Khan will talk to the union unlike his predecessor a certain Mr B I'm not sure there is much the mayor can do about it, it's between operators and the union. Well he is in charge of trainsport in London
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Post by greenboy on Jan 7, 2020 9:30:37 GMT
I'm not sure there is much the mayor can do about it, it's between operators and the union. Well he is in charge of trainsport in LondonĀ Well yes but as we know bus operations are sub contracted out and this really is between drivers and their employer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 9:33:36 GMT
There is a valid point to this, so if there were a strike I would support it. But as many others have said, there are āissuesā.
There is the point theyāll always be people who want to work as much as possible, which is fine as long as management have ensured the individual is keeping within the law and their welfare is managed. Driving long hours continuously is even acknowledged in law to cause accidents because it is raised as defences during court proceedings. So personally I think the operators should do as much as they can to mitigate this. The TfL contractors compete over costs, employ more drivers on a contract you will lose it due to cost. Perhaps TfL should assess the bids content as to welfare matters. Iām aware RATP have placed devices in their cabs to detect fatigue.
Iām sure having a break somewhere you can actually close your eyes for a short time, have access to free water, some fruit and some caffeine would help. Operators should supply these facilities. If they canāt themselves, then get out there and make arrangements to share rest facilities. Airbus drivers were allowed access to the staff canteens at Heathrow Airport for example.
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Post by greenboy on Jan 7, 2020 9:51:12 GMT
There is a valid point to this, so if there were a strike I would support it. But as many others have said, there are āissuesā. There is the point theyāll always be people who want to work as much as possible, which is fine as long as management have ensured the individual is keeping within the law and their welfare is managed. Driving long hours continuously is even acknowledged in law to cause accidents because it is raised as defences during court proceedings. So personally I think the operators should do as much as they can to mitigate this. The TfL contractors compete over costs, employ more drivers on a contract you will lose it due to cost. Perhaps TfL should assess the bids content as to welfare matters. Iām aware RATP have placed devices in their cabs to detect fatigue. Iām sure having a break somewhere you can actually close your eyes for a short time, have access to free water, some fruit and some caffeine would help. Operators should supply these facilities. If they canāt themselves, then get out there and make arrangements to share rest facilities. Airbus drivers were allowed access to the staff canteens at Heathrow Airport for example. There seems to be enough difficulty providing adequate toilet facilities and it really is up to drivers to have water, fruit or whatever their preference is with them.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 7, 2020 13:25:37 GMT
So what is the solution? Reduce the hours and Unite will be complaining about the reduction in wages. There is no one solution. The union's members have far too many conflicting interests so one solution will never fit all. Quite a lot of drivers want to maximise the hours they work right up to the legal limit, work 13 days out of 14 by choice and prefer to work long shifts. Quite a lot also value work life balance, want to work reasonable shift lengths and don't volunteer to work on the 2 or 3 rest days they get a week. Some like doing spreadovers/split shifts. Going by the posters I've seen at garages I drive at, it is less to do with shift lengths and more to do with working conditions. I gather a big part of it is the desire for increased PVRs at all times to allow more running time and increased layovers. Less trips per duty and meal reliefs longer than the minimum which is usually 40 minutes (30 being the legal minimum). This would allow for more time to rest and take breathers from what is quite a stressful role. London's bus drivers handle the demanding job with admirable professionalism - and from the comments quoted, give off the impression it's an easy job when there's actually a lot of things to deal with at once. I empathise with the cause of easing conditions. When I was a full time U4/607 driver I found the nature of the role was tiring and required enhanced levels of discipline with respect to sleep. I found myself wondering how drivers have the energy to deal with responsibilities outside of work. I have a lot of respect for people who work shifts with the requisite lack of routine. A lot of new schedules now has less stand time, they are going back to the early 2000's, although they are putting in running time, it generally is not truly reflective of traffic conditions, or in some cases way too padded.
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