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Post by MoEnviro on Apr 14, 2020 19:54:21 GMT
It may have been the case that under LT 'unsoicable hours' incorporated a lot more of the 'working day'. I.e they may have seen unsociable hours as pre 0600 and post 1800. But it may have been on a step gradient so 1800-2000 got less payment than the 2000-2200.
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Post by Alex on Apr 14, 2020 22:44:30 GMT
Right, for anyone interested (I'm thinking busaholic and capitalomnibus might have some feedback on this) I have come up with a set of duties, LT style for route 86 TS6 which was bought in back in 1985: mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/Schedules/TimeCards_86-MF-19850805%20TS6.pdfI don't think they are the most productive in places - there's some long breaks here and there to get around the spell length limits on anything with a TOD over 07:38, looking at the spreadovers, they might have been better placed a bit later on, it makes sense where I've seen operators put the spreadovers in from around 08:00 - 20:00 and 09:00 - 21:00. I've tried to keep three bus shifts to a minimum, and the spreadover numbers come within the 15%. I attached the graph in case anyone else wanted to have a go at this sort of thing, I found plotting the timeline, then shading in times of each bus with it's running number entered in each square worked. Then colour coding the relief times and adding these in, as well as the start and finish times of each bus in the garage. It made it quite easy to drag and drop each bit of working into the 'duty' part of the graph below. I was happy-ish with the amount of duties, I thought 26 morning starts and 25 evening finishes would be in the early fifties, the average spreadover comes in below the 08:40 limit and the TOD average is 07:11, seeing as the old LT schedule came in at 07:08 this seems acceptable. Thanks for the help, this sort of thing makes the time indoors fly by and keeps the mind occupied Attachment Deleted
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Post by paulsw2 on Apr 14, 2020 23:22:45 GMT
Right, for anyone interested (I'm thinking busaholic and capitalomnibus might have some feedback on this) I have come up with a set of duties, LT style for route 86 TS6 which was bought in back in 1985: mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/Schedules/TimeCards_86-MF-19850805%20TS6.pdfI don't think they are the most productive in places - there's some long breaks here and there to get around the spell length limits on anything with a TOD over 07:38, looking at the spreadovers, they might have been better placed a bit later on, it makes sense where I've seen operators put the spreadovers in from around 08:00 - 20:00 and 09:00 - 21:00. I've tried to keep three bus shifts to a minimum, and the spreadover numbers come within the 15%. I attached the graph in case anyone else wanted to have a go at this sort of thing, I found plotting the timeline, then shading in times of each bus with it's running number entered in each square worked. Then colour coding the relief times and adding these in, as well as the start and finish times of each bus in the garage. It made it quite easy to drag and drop each bit of working into the 'duty' part of the graph below. I was happy-ish with the amount of duties, I thought 26 morning starts and 25 evening finishes would be in the early fifties, the average spreadover comes in below the 08:40 limit and the TOD average is 07:11, seeing as the old LT schedule came in at 07:08 this seems acceptable. Thanks for the help, this sort of thing makes the time indoors fly by and keeps the mind occupied View AttachmentAlex I see a couple of flaws 37 duty has a 46 minute meal relief NO walking time to garage plus brings another bus out so no time to prepare vehicle as it is a departure time and 48 duty has to run a bus in (can't leave bus on highway) and only has 44 minute relief extremely tight me thinks
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Post by Alex on Apr 14, 2020 23:32:09 GMT
Alex I see a couple of flaws 37 duty has a 46 minute meal relief NO walking time to garage plus brings another bus out so no time to prepare vehicle as it is a departure time and 48 duty has to run a bus in (can't leave bus on highway) and only has 44 minute relief extremely tight me thinks I did wonder about 37 duty - would the spreadover buses get prepared twice, each time they left the garage, or just by the person in the morning? I am thinking the former seeing as vehicles could be swapped around in the day but adopted the latter principle. I didn't really want to put those 40-odd min breaks in but Mr. Busaholic mentioned that LT schedulers tried to aim for this to keep things efficient. 48 duty is a roadside relief as bus 102 is out all evening. Cheers Paul, I shall see what I can swap about EDIT: Swapped the last bit of 22 with the first bit of 37, 37 had to renumber to 36 and vice-versa in consequence. Also paulsw2 48 has been fixed too.
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Post by paulsw2 on Apr 14, 2020 23:49:19 GMT
Alex I see a couple of flaws 37 duty has a 46 minute meal relief NO walking time to garage plus brings another bus out so no time to prepare vehicle as it is a departure time and 48 duty has to run a bus in (can't leave bus on highway) and only has 44 minute relief extremely tight me thinks I did wonder about 37 duty - would the spreadover buses get prepared twice, each time they left the garage, or just by the person in the morning? I am thinking the former seeing as vehicles could be swapped around in the day but adopted the latter principle. I didn't really want to put those 40-odd min breaks in but Mr. Busaholic mentioned that LT schedulers tried to aim for this to keep things efficient. 48 duty is a roadside relief as bus 102 is out all evening. Cheers Paul, I shall see what I can swap about EDIT: Swapped the last bit of 22 with the first bit of 37, 37 had to renumber to 36 and vice-versa in consequence. The problem with minimum meal reliefs is that when it all goes Tango Uniform you end up with bus after bus after bus showing relief point then curtailment after curtailment
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Post by busaholic on Apr 15, 2020 13:36:28 GMT
I did wonder about 37 duty - would the spreadover buses get prepared twice, each time they left the garage, or just by the person in the morning? I am thinking the former seeing as vehicles could be swapped around in the day but adopted the latter principle. I didn't really want to put those 40-odd min breaks in but Mr. Busaholic mentioned that LT schedulers tried to aim for this to keep things efficient. 48 duty is a roadside relief as bus 102 is out all evening. Cheers Paul, I shall see what I can swap about EDIT: Swapped the last bit of 22 with the first bit of 37, 37 had to renumber to 36 and vice-versa in consequence. The problem with minimum meal reliefs is that when it all goes Tango Uniform you end up with bus after bus after bus showing relief point then curtailment after curtailment Gentlemen, I've only just logged on, so have only had a cursory read of the contents, and no chance to study the 86 case. In any case, I never became a fully-fledged scheduler, it was all a bit too theoretical for me and, frankly, my personality didn't lend itself to it: the best were quite solitary, introverted characters and I longed to be, if not out on the road, closely observing what happened in real life and time and try, if necessary and where possible, to have an influence leading to a hopefully better outcome on the situation. As it turned out, I had much more opportunity of doing this on the Underground side, but I stupidly spurned what in retrospect could probably have turned into a decent career because I was determined to make my mark on the bus side. I was too young, never brash (I hope) but was too ready with an opinion for many of the 'old guard' who wanted things left exactly the same as they'd alwats been, and that frustrated me enormously.
As you say, the problem with those meal reliefs being so uniform is certain passengers can get an appalling, even non-existent service, when it's gone up the creek (as they say at BK ) but that wasn't a consideration of the L.T. Schedules Dept of the early 1970s. It was a Bus Uperating matter and they should have spotted it before the schedule got signed off! Of course, in those days many routes of both considerable length and good frequency had two or more garages allocating buses to it, which in theory helped alleviate that particular problem.
I'll try to study it a bit further and cast my mind back, and if I come up with anything salient will report back.
Keep up the good work!
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 18, 2020 18:36:21 GMT
This is in relation to ex Ash Grove drivers that were TUPE'd over to Metroline with the loss of route 168. So many reasons that I am never a fan of TUPE, it appears that they were not paid many of the things they should have. They are right that Arriva does pay additional on routes where the meal relief point was not at the garage. It also mentioned unsocial hours Monday - Friday 600am till 9pm, when it should be 9pm till 6am.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 18, 2020 18:45:11 GMT
Right, for anyone interested (I'm thinking busaholic and capitalomnibus might have some feedback on this) I have come up with a set of duties, LT style for route 86 TS6 which was bought in back in 1985: mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/Schedules/TimeCards_86-MF-19850805%20TS6.pdfI don't think they are the most productive in places - there's some long breaks here and there to get around the spell length limits on anything with a TOD over 07:38, looking at the spreadovers, they might have been better placed a bit later on, it makes sense where I've seen operators put the spreadovers in from around 08:00 - 20:00 and 09:00 - 21:00. I've tried to keep three bus shifts to a minimum, and the spreadover numbers come within the 15%. I attached the graph in case anyone else wanted to have a go at this sort of thing, I found plotting the timeline, then shading in times of each bus with it's running number entered in each square worked. Then colour coding the relief times and adding these in, as well as the start and finish times of each bus in the garage. It made it quite easy to drag and drop each bit of working into the 'duty' part of the graph below. I was happy-ish with the amount of duties, I thought 26 morning starts and 25 evening finishes would be in the early fifties, the average spreadover comes in below the 08:40 limit and the TOD average is 07:11, seeing as the old LT schedule came in at 07:08 this seems acceptable. Thanks for the help, this sort of thing makes the time indoors fly by and keeps the mind occupied Seems very close to the schedule. Amazing at the running time given back then, I guess traffic levels were no way as in today, also less traffic lights. I first rode an 86 around 1989 when it was Titan's did the journey from Romford to Stratford. Went to Dolphin swimming pool in Romford. Also had the obligatory journey with the Seven Kings garage [AP] change-over. Strange now the site of [AP] is redundant since the Homebase closed around a year ago. Although doubt anyone would want to put a bus garage there now.
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Post by Alex on Apr 19, 2020 0:53:13 GMT
Seems very close to the schedule. Amazing at the running time given back then, I guess traffic levels were no way as in today, also less traffic lights. I first rode an 86 around 1989 when it was Titan's did the journey from Romford to Stratford. Went to Dolphin swimming pool in Romford. Also had the obligatory journey with the Seven Kings garage [AP] change-over. Strange now the site of [AP] is redundant since the Homebase closed around a year ago. Although doubt anyone would want to put a bus garage there now. Thanks so much for that - with the schedule I found a reference to the Mon-Fri 86 at the time being 50 duties, which is what I came up with - for most of the plotting there were 48, but the duties came in at well over the 8:40 average maximum spreadover and even with trying out numerous efficiencies the only way to get it down was to create some more shorter duties. Mind you if someone in 1985 came up with the same total it can't be that bad I did get a PM from a member who said modern operators would cover this schedule in around 45 duties, we had a chat about how the LT agreements (for instance no 5.5 hour halves allowed, and even then a 5 hour was only allowed on a TOD of less than 7:38) make a difference to the numbers. Not surprising really that current operators wouldn't use them. The running times - yes that opened my eyes too. There were bits where I had to recheck the timecards as 1:06 to do AP-STR-AP seemed too good to be true. Amazing to think these were normal timings back then. A lot of the time nowadays you would be hard pressed to do this in a car. I am very familiar with the Homebase site, my regular Aldi was next to it (until I discovered the one by Mawneys on the A12 - much better), doesn't seem a big site for a garage. Not surprising that AP couldn't have anything bigger than an RT for many years. Hard to imagine the garage and Seven Kings Hotel there these days, love the idea of a ride on a Titan with a changeover thrown in for good measure
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 20, 2020 22:37:41 GMT
First, apologies for this - I know this is a historical question but not sure where to put it. I was wondering if anyone knows of any old drivers agreements from LT days available on the net, or if any members recall the agreements and parameters? With these government restrictions and staying in more I was toying with the idea of choosing an LT era time schedule from this site: mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/ and compiling duties for it - some people play The Sims, some do football manager type games etc, I'm trying this I found a reference to schedules which states that a maximum of five hours in charge of a vehicle (this includes booking on/off time and other allowances) can be used, but if the time on duty is more than 7hrs38mins then a maximum of four hours thirty minutes has to be used. This applies Monday to Friday with weekends appearing to be different. I then found another reference that at some point in the 1980s the maximum TOD for a weekday duty was capped at 7hrs36mins. At this point I'm getting mixed up - is time on duty just the time when deemed to be in charge of a vehicle, or the entire duty length from sign-on to sign-off less meal break? I was thinking it was the former to allow for spreadover duties to be allowed into the schedule. On the subject of spreadovers, I found this: www.flickr.com/photos/n80426/4359520335/in/pool-1798839@N25/ and in the comments section there is reference to a spread duty being one minute within agreed timings - being 11hrs59mins long. I take it the maximum spread duty from sign-on to sign-off had to fit within 12 hours? Finally, what was the stance on multi-bus duties? I had always thought LT agreements either used a two bus duty, or a one bus 'straight through' duty but the schedule above has some with three. St Thanks in advance, and I can see that the LT agreements are VERY different to the way things are scheduled these days.... It is still very similar to now, hasn't changed that much the concept. I believe I may have some real old ones like that and driver rule books etc from London Buses/London Transport, but its in a few large boxes in the loft that I don't fancy sifting through now. One of these days I would hopefully scan most of this stuff and put it online. Arriva London is one of the few current companies in London to have kept the same LT pay structure TOD as in Time On Duty is is total hours worked on a duty excluding meal relief (break in middle of shift) The real time of what the driver does from sign on to sign off is shown in the Spread-Over column. The majority of routes were 2 bus per duty, some had three. Straight through jobs always were loved by drivers, even if they were say 4 hours or 5 hours long, they would be paid at minimum 7 hours 36 mins. If you came off late any overtime dockets would not be honoured. These days the majority of straight through jobs are hardly existent. They always seem to have been in the mornings. One or two routes had them at the weekend. Before the current scheme of Boxing day being Sunday schedule on every route. Boxing day was submit a memo to request to work it. it was paid around £500 IIRC and straight through jobs, earliest start was 6am and it was only one or two key routes in certain areas.
I have attached one from route 67 from 2016 (not the current schedule) for you to see what it is like. Scroll down to page 9 and you would see a similar chart.
For comparison, here is the current near equivalent of the 129 back then, the 128 now. Last schedule before the route was lost, attached. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Alex on Apr 21, 2020 14:17:00 GMT
That's excellent and really appreciate that. I can see the £3.95 meal break allowance for Becontree Heath - that's not too bad actually, for a week £19.75 in Aldi would get me loads to pack and take to work. In fact that'd pay for some of the home shopping too!
Looking at the 1990s schedules on Timetable Graveyard, it looks like these are compiled on the same system, or at least the same template. There's even references to 'LRT Contracted Route' and 'OPO' with the route number. I think it's really interesting they are still using methods like this - same goes for Arriva using LT style duty cards. I think on one route duties these are the clearest, however there was a Leyton night duty with three routes posted on here a while ago (before Stagecoach started using the newer 'column' cards) which did look a bit jumbled.....
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Post by MoEnviro on Apr 21, 2020 15:42:51 GMT
That's excellent and really appreciate that. I can see the £3.95 meal break allowance for Becontree Heath - that's not too bad actually, for a week £19.75 in Aldi would get me loads to pack and take to work. In fact that'd pay for some of the home shopping too! Looking at the 1990s schedules on Timetable Graveyard, it looks like these are compiled on the same system, or at least the same template. There's even references to 'LRT Contracted Route' and 'OPO' with the route number. I think it's really interesting they are still using methods like this - same goes for Arriva using LT style duty cards. I think on one route duties these are the clearest, however there was a Leyton night duty with three routes posted on here a while ago (before Stagecoach started using the newer 'column' cards) which did look a bit jumbled..... It’s the CapGemini scheduling system
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Post by busaholic on Apr 21, 2020 15:54:08 GMT
Seems very close to the schedule. Amazing at the running time given back then, I guess traffic levels were no way as in today, also less traffic lights. I first rode an 86 around 1989 when it was Titan's did the journey from Romford to Stratford. Went to Dolphin swimming pool in Romford. Also had the obligatory journey with the Seven Kings garage [AP] change-over. Strange now the site of [AP] is redundant since the Homebase closed around a year ago. Although doubt anyone would want to put a bus garage there now. Thanks so much for that - with the schedule I found a reference to the Mon-Fri 86 at the time being 50 duties, which is what I came up with - for most of the plotting there were 48, but the duties came in at well over the 8:40 average maximum spreadover and even with trying out numerous efficiencies the only way to get it down was to create some more shorter duties. Mind you if someone in 1985 came up with the same total it can't be that bad I did get a PM from a member who said modern operators would cover this schedule in around 45 duties, we had a chat about how the LT agreements (for instance no 5.5 hour halves allowed, and even then a 5 hour was only allowed on a TOD of less than 7:38) make a difference to the numbers. Not surprising really that current operators wouldn't use them. The running times - yes that opened my eyes too. There were bits where I had to recheck the timecards as 1:06 to do AP-STR-AP seemed too good to be true. Amazing to think these were normal timings back then. A lot of the time nowadays you would be hard pressed to do this in a car. I am very familiar with the Homebase site, my regular Aldi was next to it (until I discovered the one by Mawneys on the A12 - much better), doesn't seem a big site for a garage. Not surprising that AP couldn't have anything bigger than an RT for many years. Hard to imagine the garage and Seven Kings Hotel there these days, love the idea of a ride on a Titan with a changeover thrown in for good measure Just a quick comment on the running times - my job at L.T. when I put in my resignation was in the Running Time section, where I was one of a staff of six, and L.T. management's perception was that running times in general were too generous thanks to union power! Mind you, increasing opo was only going to send running times soaring, particularly in peaks.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 22, 2020 11:15:09 GMT
That's excellent and really appreciate that. I can see the £3.95 meal break allowance for Becontree Heath - that's not too bad actually, for a week £19.75 in Aldi would get me loads to pack and take to work. In fact that'd pay for some of the home shopping too! Looking at the 1990s schedules on Timetable Graveyard, it looks like these are compiled on the same system, or at least the same template. There's even references to 'LRT Contracted Route' and 'OPO' with the route number. I think it's really interesting they are still using methods like this - same goes for Arriva using LT style duty cards. I think on one route duties these are the clearest, however there was a Leyton night duty with three routes posted on here a while ago (before Stagecoach started using the newer 'column' cards) which did look a bit jumbled..... Stagecoach did use the LT style duty cards until around 2006. They then went to the generic UK standard duty card that First London used and also Arriva used outside London. In fact [GR] were using these duty cards as they were not done from Arriva London.
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Post by titan1mike on Apr 24, 2020 22:02:15 GMT
That's excellent and really appreciate that. I can see the £3.95 meal break allowance for Becontree Heath - that's not too bad actually, for a week £19.75 in Aldi would get me loads to pack and take to work. In fact that'd pay for some of the home shopping too! Looking at the 1990s schedules on Timetable Graveyard, it looks like these are compiled on the same system, or at least the same template. There's even references to 'LRT Contracted Route' and 'OPO' with the route number. I think it's really interesting they are still using methods like this - same goes for Arriva using LT style duty cards. I think on one route duties these are the clearest, however there was a Leyton night duty with three routes posted on here a while ago (before Stagecoach started using the newer 'column' cards) which did look a bit jumbled..... It’s the CapGemini scheduling system Indeed it is, this is also known as LSS (London Scheduling System), Arriva, Metroline and RATP DEV London still use this software. In my office I work with one of the original people who devised the system. i believe Stagecoach using omnibus scheduling software.
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