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Post by redexpress on Nov 19, 2020 11:01:15 GMT
The DD conversion of the 80 may see a reduction to the 613 as there will be more capacity between Glenthorne School and Sutton now aswell. Perhaps just 1 journey from Sutton to Tolworth and leave the 80 to the rest. The 613 only has one journey each way anyway (excluding the Covid extra), so it'd be difficult to reduce the number of journeys!
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 19, 2020 11:59:04 GMT
Could cut the 613 entirely and extend the 627 to Tolworth. The increase to the 151 and X26 and DD conversions of both plus as said the 80 will be every 8 mins with DDs up from 12 mins SD a few years ago probably means the 613 will be less needed.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Nov 30, 2020 12:56:04 GMT
I'll just say that I think removing school routes and putting school children on public services is the complete wrong way of attracting people back to the bus network. School services are known for children being loud hence why children used school services instead of public services where possible pre COVID
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 30, 2020 12:58:03 GMT
I'll just say that I think removing school routes and putting school children on public services is the complete wrong way of attracting people back to the bus network. School services are known for children being loud hence why children used school services instead of public services where possible pre COVID While I agree with this, I think the 646/8 is a special case as many students from the school already opt for the 248 and that route already is laden to the top with schools elsewhere on the route so I doubt the few extra children fro Coopers will do much damage to that route.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 14:18:39 GMT
I'll just say that I think removing school routes and putting school children on public services is the complete wrong way of attracting people back to the bus network. School services are known for children being loud hence why children used school services instead of public services where possible pre COVID Lots of places don't have dedicated school routes and don't see too many issues where people are discouraged to use buses. Also on my local route school children still use the single decker route 325 despite the 678 having 4 trips along the same route, think some children feel school buses cramp their style. In these tough financial times I would rather lightly used school services cut as these are very expensive per mile on tenders.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 30, 2020 15:44:16 GMT
I'll just say that I think removing school routes and putting school children on public services is the complete wrong way of attracting people back to the bus network. School services are known for children being loud hence why children used school services instead of public services where possible pre COVID While I agree with this, I think the 646/8 is a special case as many students from the school already opt for the 248 and that route already is laden to the top with schools elsewhere on the route so I doubt the few extra children fro Coopers will do much damage to that route. Indeed - I don’t know if others agree but I think the school routes network could do with a big overhaul personally. I mean I have one and IMO it’s a waste being merely a school route whereas I see potential if it was a regular standard route.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 15:49:47 GMT
While I agree with this, I think the 646/8 is a special case as many students from the school already opt for the 248 and that route already is laden to the top with schools elsewhere on the route so I doubt the few extra children fro Coopers will do much damage to that route. Indeed - I don’t know if others agree but I think the school routes network could do with a big overhaul personally. I mean I have one and IMO it’s a waste being merely a school route whereas I see potential if it was a regular standard route. I mentioned earlier how expensive school routes are and know a day route would work out more expensive overall but must be better value as it benefits more passengers.
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 30, 2020 16:11:07 GMT
Whilst locals on here have acknowledged these are low patronage routes, how can TfL reliably say they are when they also say that the data for school routes is not sufficiently reliable - maybe I'm looking at this wrong but it sounds like they're literally guessing? Now that you say that, that is strange! With TfL being TfL, it could just be down to guesswork. Or did they have a Bus Survey team out one day with not may schoolkids filling the info in. ( Also find it strange that some teams literally only give the forms to adults, not very reliable data, is it) I understand why survey teams do that, the amount of times I'd fill out I'd be finishing my journey by griffin or phoenix is probably a reason why they ignore school kids! Obviously I have to state that we do a lot of stupid things as teens, but I saw it as not very representative data if I was being surveyed for the exact journey I did a day ago. My sample has already been given. It's extremely hard to survey routes, most times it always boils down to compliance. Kids can be just as bad as adults. Once boarded a 176N on a Friday night when bus surveys were being conducted. Obviously compliance as well as consciousness of passengers were low.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 30, 2020 20:25:57 GMT
While I agree with this, I think the 646/8 is a special case as many students from the school already opt for the 248 and that route already is laden to the top with schools elsewhere on the route so I doubt the few extra children fro Coopers will do much damage to that route. Indeed - I don’t know if others agree but I think the school routes network could do with a big overhaul personally. I mean I have one and IMO it’s a waste being merely a school route whereas I see potential if it was a regular standard route. I'm not sure it needs a radical overhaul. There are probably tweaks to be made as travel patterns, catchment areas etc. can change over time, but on the whole the 6xx routes are there for a reason.
The 690 is not the best example of a school route - it runs in inner London where there is already a dense network with enough capacity to be able to absorb most school-related travel. I wouldn't be surprised if it was axed, although I don't know what the loadings are like west of Brixton. We can fantasise about replacing it with a regular route but that would take the cost to another level altogether! Most of TfL's dedicated school routes run in outer London where the network is less dense (especially in terms of frequency / capacity of services) so dedicated school buses are needed.
The 648 is an unusual one in that it is a single-deck route that shadows a frequent double-deck route, i.e. the opposite of most school routes, so I can see why it could easily be axed.
Worth noting that the 248 itself has additional school journeys which add an extra bus to the schedule (and there are plenty of other examples of this). We don't hear much about the expense of this extra bus, because it runs under the same number as the main service. Add an extra bus under a dedicated 6xx number, however, and people start fretting about the expense! I think this is another example of us enthusiasts thinking too much in terms of individual routes instead of looking at the bigger picture.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 30, 2020 23:19:55 GMT
Indeed - I don’t know if others agree but I think the school routes network could do with a big overhaul personally. I mean I have one and IMO it’s a waste being merely a school route whereas I see potential if it was a regular standard route. I'm not sure it needs a radical overhaul. There are probably tweaks to be made as travel patterns, catchment areas etc. can change over time, but on the whole the 6xx routes are there for a reason. The 690 is not the best example of a school route - it runs in inner London where there is already a dense network with enough capacity to be able to absorb most school-related travel. I wouldn't be surprised if it was axed, although I don't know what the loadings are like west of Brixton. We can fantasise about replacing it with a regular route but that would take the cost to another level altogether! Most of TfL's dedicated school routes run in outer London where the network is less dense (especially in terms of frequency / capacity of services) so dedicated school buses are needed. The 648 is an unusual one in that it is a single-deck route that shadows a frequent double-deck route, i.e. the opposite of most school routes, so I can see why it could easily be axed. Worth noting that the 248 itself has additional school journeys which add an extra bus to the schedule (and there are plenty of other examples of this). We don't hear much about the expense of this extra bus, because it runs under the same number as the main service. Add an extra bus under a dedicated 6xx number, however, and people start fretting about the expense! I think this is another example of us enthusiasts thinking too much in terms of individual routes instead of looking at the bigger picture.
Oh, I didn't mean withdraw the school routes but look at where changes can be made and even additions to the school network, maybe I should of rephrased it better. I won't be too surprised if the 690 was axed especially as they already axed the long standing successor to the 189, the 689 and your right it would cost a lot more but it would be nice for Brixton and the surrounding areas to see some investment bar a capacity increase on the P5 & the 432's frequency increase which was only done because it run into the borough of Croydon given it was introduced in that Croydon scheme.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 30, 2020 23:28:36 GMT
I'm not sure it needs a radical overhaul. There are probably tweaks to be made as travel patterns, catchment areas etc. can change over time, but on the whole the 6xx routes are there for a reason. The 690 is not the best example of a school route - it runs in inner London where there is already a dense network with enough capacity to be able to absorb most school-related travel. I wouldn't be surprised if it was axed, although I don't know what the loadings are like west of Brixton. We can fantasise about replacing it with a regular route but that would take the cost to another level altogether! Most of TfL's dedicated school routes run in outer London where the network is less dense (especially in terms of frequency / capacity of services) so dedicated school buses are needed. The 648 is an unusual one in that it is a single-deck route that shadows a frequent double-deck route, i.e. the opposite of most school routes, so I can see why it could easily be axed. Worth noting that the 248 itself has additional school journeys which add an extra bus to the schedule (and there are plenty of other examples of this). We don't hear much about the expense of this extra bus, because it runs under the same number as the main service. Add an extra bus under a dedicated 6xx number, however, and people start fretting about the expense! I think this is another example of us enthusiasts thinking too much in terms of individual routes instead of looking at the bigger picture.
Oh, I didn't mean withdraw the school routes but look at where changes can be made and even additions to the school network, maybe I should of rephrased it better. I won't be too surprised if the 690 was axed especially as they already axed the long standing successor to the 189, the 689 and your right it would cost a lot more but it would be nice for Brixton and the surrounding areas to see some investment bar a capacity increase on the P5 & the 432's frequency increase which was only done because it run into the borough of Croydon given it was introduced in that Croydon scheme. The lack of investment in Inner London in general is appalling. I understand the mayor wants to focus on outer London which traditionally got neglected but that doesn't mean you neglect inner London instead. I was literally thinking the other day the only route Stratford has heading towards the inner North is the 276 by this point, you have the 425 but that uses such a useless route and avoids all the town centres it's not worth counting it, it's such a gaping hole in the network. For some reason TfL have decided that travelling from one side of South London to the other should be near impossible, you've pretty much got the 37 and 345, the chronically overloaded P4 and P13 alongside the 436 which has a 425 like useless routing and dumps you short of somewhere useful. West London and North London seem to have fared a lot better with their inner/outer links. Don't even start me on the overcrowding in inner London
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Post by vjaska on Nov 30, 2020 23:36:10 GMT
Oh, I didn't mean withdraw the school routes but look at where changes can be made and even additions to the school network, maybe I should of rephrased it better. I won't be too surprised if the 690 was axed especially as they already axed the long standing successor to the 189, the 689 and your right it would cost a lot more but it would be nice for Brixton and the surrounding areas to see some investment bar a capacity increase on the P5 & the 432's frequency increase which was only done because it run into the borough of Croydon given it was introduced in that Croydon scheme. The lack of investment in Inner London in general is appalling. I understand the mayor wants to focus on outer London which traditionally got neglected but that doesn't mean you neglect inner London instead. I was literally thinking the other day the only route Stratford has heading towards the inner North is the 276 by this point, you have the 425 but that uses such a useless route and avoids all the town centres it's not worth counting it, it's such a gaping hole in the network. For some reason TfL have decided that travelling from one side of South London to the other should be near impossible, you've pretty much got the 37 and 345, the chronically overloaded P4 and P13 alongside the 436 which has a 425 like useless routing and dumps you short of somewhere useful. West London and North London seem to have fared a lot better with their inner/outer links. Don't even start me on the overcrowding in inner London Indeed and the 37 can't always be relied on despite how useful it is and how busy it is at times. The 690 could be a great addition as a regular route given it would at least give some relief to the 37 across Brixton and open a up a more direct Clapham Common to West Norwood link than the current 322.
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Post by galwhv69 on Dec 1, 2020 0:10:04 GMT
The lack of investment in Inner London in general is appalling. I understand the mayor wants to focus on outer London which traditionally got neglected but that doesn't mean you neglect inner London instead. I was literally thinking the other day the only route Stratford has heading towards the inner North is the 276 by this point, you have the 425 but that uses such a useless route and avoids all the town centres it's not worth counting it, it's such a gaping hole in the network. For some reason TfL have decided that travelling from one side of South London to the other should be near impossible, you've pretty much got the 37 and 345, the chronically overloaded P4 and P13 alongside the 436 which has a 425 like useless routing and dumps you short of somewhere useful. West London and North London seem to have fared a lot better with their inner/outer links. Don't even start me on the overcrowding in inner London Indeed and the 37 can't always be relied on despite how useful it is and how busy it is at times. The 690 could be a great addition as a regular route given it would at least give some relief to the 37 across Brixton and open a up a more direct Clapham Common to West Norwood link than the current 322. Would like to see the 690 turned into a regular route and extended to Wandsworth (or Putney Bridge?) as buses also get absolutely hammered along Garrat Lane around school kick out time so would relieve the 44/270 massively
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Post by vjaska on Dec 1, 2020 1:20:08 GMT
Indeed and the 37 can't always be relied on despite how useful it is and how busy it is at times. The 690 could be a great addition as a regular route given it would at least give some relief to the 37 across Brixton and open a up a more direct Clapham Common to West Norwood link than the current 322. Would like to see the 690 turned into a regular route and extended to Wandsworth (or Putney Bridge?) as buses also get absolutely hammered along Garrat Lane around school kick out time so would relieve the 44/270 massively I'd fully support any extension to Wandsworth - like you say it would support the 44 & 270 and also create new local links too
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Post by LondonNorthern on Dec 1, 2020 15:48:56 GMT
Oh, I didn't mean withdraw the school routes but look at where changes can be made and even additions to the school network, maybe I should of rephrased it better. I won't be too surprised if the 690 was axed especially as they already axed the long standing successor to the 189, the 689 and your right it would cost a lot more but it would be nice for Brixton and the surrounding areas to see some investment bar a capacity increase on the P5 & the 432's frequency increase which was only done because it run into the borough of Croydon given it was introduced in that Croydon scheme. The lack of investment in Inner London in general is appalling. I understand the mayor wants to focus on outer London which traditionally got neglected but that doesn't mean you neglect inner London instead. I was literally thinking the other day the only route Stratford has heading towards the inner North is the 276 by this point, you have the 425 but that uses such a useless route and avoids all the town centres it's not worth counting it, it's such a gaping hole in the network. For some reason TfL have decided that travelling from one side of South London to the other should be near impossible, you've pretty much got the 37 and 345, the chronically overloaded P4 and P13 alongside the 436 which has a 425 like useless routing and dumps you short of somewhere useful. West London and North London seem to have fared a lot better with their inner/outer links. Don't even start me on the overcrowding in inner London Outer London hasn't fared much better either. In fact there's hardly been any investment in the network without something being removed. There have been some routes that have gained masses of usage over the past years e.g 112, 174, 183, 263 etc but they were invested in. The 425 has had its passenger figures triple within the past 10 years but yet in the last 6 route 25 has dropped by 12 million passengers. That is the exact problem with how tfl invest. Routes will pick up in usage (which the 25 did between 2010-13 where it grew by 600000 passenger journies) yet it all drops.
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