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Post by Alex on Jun 4, 2021 23:24:24 GMT
on the DLR our "braking rates" are adjusted so trains start braking earlier when it rains to prevent wheel slip and trains dropping out of Automatic It’s similar on the SSR. Any wheelslip activity is sent from the train to the system and the technical staff monitoring the equipment gets alerts in the control room. Then the technician and control room management agree if the rate should be changed. The wheelslip issue is why the 31mph speed is in on the Hammersmith branch heading east. For anyone wondering about the odd speed amounts, the system works them out in KPH and then converts it back to MPH, the Hammersmith line 31mph being 50kph for example.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 5, 2021 0:12:19 GMT
The Circle, Hammersmith and City Line are already ATO along most of the stretch shared with the Metropolitan so they do all run on the same speed even if it may not seem like it. The only reason I can think of is that the Circle and H&C are busier than the Metropolitan but have shorter trains, and the Circle/H&C are less frequent for the lower Circle/Barking branches meaning that they are often quite crowded when they rock up as opposed to the Metropolitan line which usually carries fresh air along the upper circle. This extra crowding on the H&C/Circle probably means that doors can take longer to close and open which obviously then adds onto overall travel time. I have always been of the view that more Mets should be truncated short to allow additional Circles and H&Cs, although this would then interfere with the District Line which gets quite frequent on the lower Circle and out to Barking so it's probably a dead start. It obviously then makes sense for the Met to run along the upper circle to use the capacity, even if the trains may not always seem the best value for track capacity. I use them a lot and they definitely do not run at the same speed as you say. Even in the late evening when there is not much passengers there is a difference to the way the drivers are.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 5, 2021 0:14:00 GMT
Why is it the majority of the drivers on these trains are so slow. It is irritating. If it is one line I wish to see been turned to ATO is this. The drivers on the Metropolitan line who run over a lot of the same stretch seems to be much quicker, they are quick at opening doors, accelerating up to the limit and getting to the limit. The only part of the Circle that is NOT ATO at present is Sloane Square to Paddington via Hight St Ken. ( goes ATO in Nov ) and The H&C is ATO between Hammersmith and Stepney Green.The slow door opening is down to the train having to berth at 0 metres to its target point then giving a release to the door opening control. Speeds won’t be able to fully adjusted until the District H&C Circle and Met have there timetables recast possibility in Dec If it is ATO as you say, then why is the drivers on the Victoria line a million seconds faster compared to the H&C/Circle. Even at door operation. They would put the H&C line to shame.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 5, 2021 0:15:08 GMT
I always found these two lines to be very fast. If that is what you call fast then the Victoria line must be Concorde speed.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 5, 2021 0:23:14 GMT
on the DLR our "braking rates" are adjusted so trains start braking earlier when it rains to prevent wheel slip and trains dropping out of Automatic It’s similar on the SSR. Any wheelslip activity is sent from the train to the system and the technical staff monitoring the equipment gets alerts in the control room. Then the technician and control room management agree if the rate should be changed. The wheelslip issue is why the 31mph speed is in on the Hammersmith branch heading east. For anyone wondering about the odd speed amounts, the system works them out in KPH and then converts it back to MPH, the Hammersmith line 31mph being 50kph for example. The majority of engineering is done in metric i.e. KM/H One of the reasons why HGV speed limiter is set at 62.5. Or various other limitations always came up with non 0 or 5 mph speeds.
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Post by M1104 on Jun 5, 2021 0:59:50 GMT
The only part of the Circle that is NOT ATO at present is Sloane Square to Paddington via Hight St Ken. ( goes ATO in Nov ) and The H&C is ATO between Hammersmith and Stepney Green.The slow door opening is down to the train having to berth at 0 metres to its target point then giving a release to the door opening control. Speeds won’t be able to fully adjusted until the District H&C Circle and Met have there timetables recast possibility in Dec If it is ATO as you say, then why is the drivers on the Victoria line a million seconds faster compared to the H&C/Circle. Even at door operation. They would put the H&C line to shame. The Victoria Line in comparison has advantages of no sharp bends nor other lines to share tracks with, essentially allowing trains to travel faster for longer distance/periods. I believe door operation is 'partiality' automated, which would explain their prompt opening after the train's stopped and the train's prompt departure after all doors are confirmed shut.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 5, 2021 1:26:23 GMT
If it is ATO as you say, then why is the drivers on the Victoria line a million seconds faster compared to the H&C/Circle. Even at door operation. They would put the H&C line to shame. The Victoria Line in comparison has advantages of no sharp bends nor other lines to share tracks with, essentially allowing trains to travel faster for longer distance/periods. I believe door operation is 'partiality' automated, which would explain their prompt opening after the train's stopped and the train's prompt departure after all doors are confirmed shut. Indeed and on top of that, the Victoria Line has had ATO since it was built 50 odd years ago so plenty of time to bed it down. I remember when the Northern went ATO a few years back, took ages for it to bed down - I believe the Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and District are still all going through their signal upgrade program so the benefits probably won't be fully noticed for a while yet
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 5, 2021 3:22:10 GMT
If it is ATO as you say, then why is the drivers on the Victoria line a million seconds faster compared to the H&C/Circle. Even at door operation. They would put the H&C line to shame. Indeed and on top of that, the Victoria Line has had ATO since it was built 50 odd years ago so plenty of time to bed it down. The current Victoria Line ATC system was installed around 2008/2010 and is not the legacy 1968 version, it is different to the sub-surface CBTC system. Doors cannot be opened ‘early’ in CBTC, the system doesn’t allow it
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Post by vjaska on Jun 5, 2021 8:07:02 GMT
If it is ATO as you say, then why is the drivers on the Victoria line a million seconds faster compared to the H&C/Circle. Even at door operation. They would put the H&C line to shame. Indeed and on top of that, the Victoria Line has had ATO since it was built 50 odd years ago so plenty of time to bed it down. The current Victoria Line ATC system was installed around 2008/2010 and is not the legacy 1968 version, it is different to the sub-surface CBTC system. Doors cannot be opened ‘early’ in CBTC, the system doesn’t allow it I know that the current one was installed in 2010, the point I’m making is the line has had ATO since it was built and has more experience to iron out kinks than the other lines.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 5, 2021 9:32:27 GMT
The Circle, Hammersmith and City Line are already ATO along most of the stretch shared with the Metropolitan so they do all run on the same speed even if it may not seem like it. The only reason I can think of is that the Circle and H&C are busier than the Metropolitan but have shorter trains, and the Circle/H&C are less frequent for the lower Circle/Barking branches meaning that they are often quite crowded when they rock up as opposed to the Metropolitan line which usually carries fresh air along the upper circle. This extra crowding on the H&C/Circle probably means that doors can take longer to close and open which obviously then adds onto overall travel time. I have always been of the view that more Mets should be truncated short to allow additional Circles and H&Cs, although this would then interfere with the District Line which gets quite frequent on the lower Circle and out to Barking so it's probably a dead start. It obviously then makes sense for the Met to run along the upper circle to use the capacity, even if the trains may not always seem the best value for track capacity. I use them a lot and they definitely do not run at the same speed as you say. Even in the late evening when there is not much passengers there is a difference to the way the drivers are. They certainly run at the same speed, they are literally controlled by the exact same computer. This is just fact. I also use them a lot and see no difference.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Jun 5, 2021 9:53:56 GMT
on the DLR our "braking rates" are adjusted so trains start braking earlier when it rains to prevent wheel slip and trains dropping out of Automatic It’s similar on the SSR. Any wheelslip activity is sent from the train to the system and the technical staff monitoring the equipment gets alerts in the control room. Then the technician and control room management agree if the rate should be changed. The wheelslip issue is why the 31mph speed is in on the Hammersmith branch heading east. For anyone wondering about the odd speed amounts, the system works them out in KPH and then converts it back to MPH, the Hammersmith line 31mph being 50kph for example. we work in Kph, always get strange looks when I tell people our fastest line speed is "80kph."
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jun 5, 2021 12:15:25 GMT
I use them a lot and they definitely do not run at the same speed as you say. Even in the late evening when there is not much passengers there is a difference to the way the drivers are. They certainly run at the same speed, they are literally controlled by the exact same computer. This is just fact. I also use them a lot and see no difference. I would have to stopwatch time them and post results. I definitely know that many times the Metropolitan would go faster than the H&C and I could not understand why. Especially early morning and late evenings when I use it.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 5, 2021 17:56:18 GMT
They certainly run at the same speed, they are literally controlled by the exact same computer. This is just fact. I also use them a lot and see no difference. I would have to stopwatch time them and post results. I definitely know that many times the Metropolitan would go faster than the H&C and I could not understand why. Especially early morning and late evenings when I use it. Perhaps this is the case on the shared sections, though the Metropolitan line is often very slow on the section between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. Trains will often come to a complete stop at some point between these stations, and sometimes get overtaken by the stopping Jubilee line.
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Post by Alex on Jun 5, 2021 20:47:28 GMT
Perhaps this is the case on the shared sections, though the Metropolitan line is often very slow on the section between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. The shared bits all have the same running times, there’s nowhere to pass the train in front so the times need to be the same or else trains would catch up other ones all the time! Same goes for the District shared sections with the Circle and Hammersmith & City from Gloucester Road to Barking (and the District services to Edgware Road). The speeds and performance for all lines is exactly the same in CBTC areas, as described before some journeys are faster than others due to late running or a signaller has adjusted things at their end.
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Post by redbus on Jun 7, 2021 13:55:58 GMT
Are you seriously suggesting the Circle Line should go back to being a circle when the problems it had because it ran in a circle were well documented and why it eventually was unraveled from such a format? Speculation to a degree is welcome but some people should do some research first. What are examples of said problems? The main reason the Circle line was 'unravelled' was to provide a more frequent service between Hammersmith and Edgware Road. Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line was one station that TfL thought was in particular need of a frequency enhancement and also the opening of Westfield bolstered the case. On the other hand stopping all trains from High Street Kensington at Edgware Road was a retrograde step and arguably drove more passengers to Paddington station on the Hammersmith Line as they would have to change trains at Edgware Road if they went to Paddington Station Circle Line. I'll leave the question of convenience of the two Paddington stations aside along with the interchange to the Bakerloo line. The other argument was 'unravelling' the Circle line was that it was difficult to run reliably and when there were issues it took longer to get back on its feet. To be honest I haven't seen a meaningful improvement in recovery time when things go wrong and also previously when it was a true Circle line issues may only have impacted one direction. ATO once complete should make all four sub-surface lines a lot more reliable, but to what extent train capacity will be increased is another matter. If you could increase capacity on the top half of the Circle line then you could re-instate the Circle Line as a loop and keep frequency improvements on the Hammersmith section. ATO should be reliable enough to make that achievable if the extra capacity were there but I don't think it is. Remember all the junctions around the Circle line are 'flat junctions', so the trains have to cross over one another on the points and that limits the number of trains that can be scheduled.
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