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Post by eggmiester on Jan 20, 2008 19:04:20 GMT
I think its mainly down to the Driver Licensing laws, look at lorries, to drive an artic you need to pass a rigid class 2 test first then take a seperate class one test to drive an artic. With buses its different, a normal PCV holder can drive a bendy with just 2 hours driving experience! Thats where the problem is, the drivers arent really trained properly in how to drive an articulated vehicle, unless they have previously driven a class 1 HGV.
Im not disrespecting Articulated Bus Drivers here, most of whom would have had at least 2 years or more experience driving Rigid Buses, but even with that much experience driving a rigid, driving an artic you need to adapt your driving to the charateristics of the bus not adapt the bus to the charaterisitcs of your driving, which seems to be the problem with most articulated bus drivers. Sorry but thats how i feel about them, i wouldnt touch one unless i got at least 3 weeks driving tuition in one, from a DSA approved instructor/examiner.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2008 3:46:36 GMT
Apologies for being away from this thread after throwing a cat amongst the pigeons I think its mainly down to the Driver Licensing laws, look at lorries, to drive an artic you need to pass a rigid class 2 test first then take a seperate class one test to drive an artic. With buses its different, a normal PCV holder can drive a bendy with just 2 hours driving experience! Thats where the problem is, the drivers arent really trained properly in how to drive an articulated vehicle, unless they have previously driven a class 1 HGV. Im not disrespecting Articulated Bus Drivers here, most of whom would have had at least 2 years or more experience driving Rigid Buses, but even with that much experience driving a rigid, driving an artic you need to adapt your driving to the charateristics of the bus not adapt the bus to the charaterisitcs of your driving, which seems to be the problem with most articulated bus drivers. Sorry but thats how i feel about them, i wouldnt touch one unless i got at least 3 weeks driving tuition in one, from a DSA approved instructor/examiner. That's where differences between countries and cities comes out. Here in NSW (can't really comment on the rest of Australia), a rigid bus (MR) would be in one license class and an artic bus in another (HR). So one is in a class along with large trucks, the other in a class with semi trailers (well that's how I interpret the info on the RTA website). However I do know that the STA here will train each new employee on each bus type in the depot they are posted at - if a depot had all 3 of the O305 types in service (mkII, III and IV) then they were trained on each, even though they're the same chassi there are subtle and not so subtle differences between bodies, dash boards etc. So they well and truly train a driver up on an artic or a 14.5 bus here
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 13:00:19 GMT
Hey guys,
Just received some clarification on the licensing heirarchy here MR (medium rigid) covers 2 axle buses HR (heavy rigid) covers 3 axle buses, so 14.5m long ones plus artics - artics being in a seperate class again.
Although you can go from a C class license up to MR or HR - although you need 1 years experience on MR and 2 on HR - that's on top of 3 years from when you have your L's
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 22:35:51 GMT
It's not a question of how narrow or bendy roads are, but a question of how heavy traffic is. In London traffic is heavy and space is a premium. You have to get into the right position at the right time otherwise you don't move as other traffic is impatiant. The width of the road and any obstructions in the road, the road junctions and bends in the roads are critical. To say the width of the road is irelevent indicvates a sevre lack of knoledge on your part. To date most bendy accidents have been attibuted to driver error on the part of the bendy driver. Frequently they are hiting parked cars, street furniture and other vehicles as well as mounting pavements. A lot seems to be down that no proper training is given. Driving an artic is a very different proposition to driving a rigid bus. Artics are also frequently using unauthorised roads to run dead. A lot of accidents are occuring when they do this. The other problem is TfLare attemting to operate artics along roads that are just not suitable. There are very few roads in London where artics can be sensibly and safely operated. It comes as no supprise to me that the accident rate with bendies is still increasing it is now over 6 times that of normal buses. The metropolitian police traffic divisions have raised concerns with TfL about the safety issues with artics. With one route they have come close to ordering TfL to take them off the road on safety grounds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 23:01:45 GMT
Artics are also frequently using unauthorised roads to run dead. A lot of accidents are occuring when they do this. The other problem is TfLare attemting to operate artics along roads that are just not suitable. There are very few roads in London where artics can be sensibly and safely operated. As said previously Artics are entitled to use any road as long as they do not exceed weight or width limits, or any other legal restriction. Not an approved route is not a valid reason. Can I ask on what authority you make the statement "There are very few roads in London where artics can be sensibly and safely operated". What studies have been carried out to quantify this statement. I would imagine they could be used on any road a large truck can be used - and baring in mind the roads dustcarts go down ....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2008 23:44:07 GMT
I cant see the difference between a bendi bus and some large car pulling as big caravan around the streets of London. Should we ban Caravans from most of the London streets too? Actually I would be in favour of that!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2008 20:31:58 GMT
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no...
The turning circle of an artic is barely larger than that of a 12m rigid vehicle. As long as traffic is light, an artic can squeeze through generally well. It is only in heavy traffic do their physical size become a problem.
The chance of hitting parked cars and mounting pavement for an artic has a negligible difference to that of a full-size rigid vehicle. In some residential areas full-size vehicles cannot safely operate anyway and it's not just the artics that are unsuitable. Just blaming the artics is plain unfair.
It may well be that not enough training is given. Then again it is not the fault of artics themselves.
Having said all this, I must say that I'm not a fan of artics being used in London either. But we must discuss matters as they are, without jumping to the first seemingly obvious conclusion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 17:36:47 GMT
I recently did a tour from Germany driving a 13m tri axle coach (LHD). I was appaled by the agressive, thoughtless and dangerous driving of car and van drivers(are they exempt from the road code) especially at roundabouts, junctions and traffic lights. It seems your problems with bendy buses is not the buses but the terrible standard of other road users who over here would certainly be banned. eg to overtake on the inside is an instant 1 month ban, no excuse and it is enforced.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 17:42:12 GMT
OH and i forgot. You seem to allow parking designed to block roads. Has it not occured to anyone that most roads in the uk would be twice the width if parking was not allowed. Very strange!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 18:27:55 GMT
I recently did a tour from Germany driving a 13m tri axle coach (LHD). I was appaled by the agressive, thoughtless and dangerous driving of car and van drivers(are they exempt from the road code) especially at roundabouts, junctions and traffic lights. It seems your problems with bendy buses is not the buses but the terrible standard of other road users who over here would certainly be banned. eg to overtake on the inside is an instant 1 month ban, no excuse and it is enforced. Before you go on to tell us what a fine example to driving the German nation is, try looking at the annual road deaths of Germany compared with the UK. Even adjusted per 1m of population, driving in this country IS far safer than 'sur le continent'. There are many thing tutonic which I admire, but driving skills are NOT necessarily one of them!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2009 18:33:20 GMT
OH and i forgot. You seem to allow parking designed to block roads. Has it not occured to anyone that most roads in the uk would be twice the width if parking was not allowed. Very strange!! Mein wagenfuhrer, Let's make an agreement, you don't mention fotball and WE won't mention the war! ;D ;D ;D Seriously, if you think things ARE so bad here, both the A2 and A20 roads will get you back to Dover! We KNOW there are problems, we DON'T need our noses rubbed in it!
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Post by ajw on Nov 11, 2009 11:16:13 GMT
I recently did a tour from Germany driving a 13m tri axle coach (LHD). I was appaled by the agressive, thoughtless and dangerous driving of car and van drivers(are they exempt from the road code) especially at roundabouts, junctions and traffic lights. It seems your problems with bendy buses is not the buses but the terrible standard of other road users who over here would certainly be banned. eg to overtake on the inside is an instant 1 month ban, no excuse and it is enforced. I tend to agree with you about the standard of driving in the UK. It is very agressive and selfish. I often sit on a bus going through traffic on say Regent or Oxford streets, two of the most congested roads and ask myself what the driver thinks he is doing. For example you will see a bus stopped at a stop. 2nd bus comes up behind but is ready to go before the first. So tries to move to the right, and lo and behold finds he cannot move because he is too close, so in effect has now blocked both lanes to everyone which leads to even more congestion futher back. Had he waited 10 seconds more the bus in front would have moved, traffic would have flowed down the right=less congestion. Also traffic in junctions, the number of times I see all vehicles entering junctions (including the yellow marked ones) when there is no hope of getting through is a joke. End result junction blocked. With artics and longer buses in general in heavy traffic they have a major advantage. Has anyone ever read about or studied the concertina effect on traffic? Basically if you have a line of traffic stopped at say a set of lights, once the lights go green each vehicle takes off one by one. The issue is the time between each vehicle moving. So lets say you have a line of traffic 100m long. If all the vehicles were say a 4m car it might take 30 seconds before the last car starts. But lets say the 100m was full of 18m artics, it would only take about 6 seconds before the last vehicle starts to move. Anyway it is more complex than that, but the principle is in congested roads a smaller number of longer vehicles is actually better than a larger number of small vehicles. It is this reason why a laught when I hear about the 73 which is going to have more smaller length buses replacing the artics. Whilst maybe the overall metreage on the road will be less, the mear fact there are more will lead to more congestion. Before you go on to tell us what a fine example to driving the German nation is, try looking at the annual road deaths of Germany compared with the UK. Even adjusted per 1m of population, driving in this country IS far safer than 'sur le continent'. There are many thing tutonic which I admire, but driving skills are NOT necessarily one of them! Not going to vie into a UK V's Germany who is better debate, but I will say that road deaths are not a meassure of how good or how bad the drivers are. There are many other factors that need to be considered. I personally have never driven (or indeed visited Germany), but the orginal poster was very right in saying drivers in the UK are very impatent and I beleive agressive too. I really dislike driving here. I do take my hat off to 'professional' drivers in the UK though, they must have balls of steel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2009 12:00:03 GMT
I recently did a tour from Germany driving a 13m tri axle coach (LHD). I was appaled by the agressive, thoughtless and dangerous driving of car and van drivers(are they exempt from the road code) especially at roundabouts, junctions and traffic lights. It seems your problems with bendy buses is not the buses but the terrible standard of other road users who over here would certainly be banned. eg to overtake on the inside is an instant 1 month ban, no excuse and it is enforced. I tend to agree with you about the standard of driving in the UK. It is very agressive and selfish. I often sit on a bus going through traffic on say Regent or Oxford streets, two of the most congested roads and ask myself what the driver thinks he is doing. For example you will see a bus stopped at a stop. 2nd bus comes up behind but is ready to go before the first. So tries to move to the right, and lo and behold finds he cannot move because he is too close, so in effect has now blocked both lanes to everyone which leads to even more congestion futher back. Had he waited 10 seconds more the bus in front would have moved, traffic would have flowed down the right=less congestion. Also traffic in junctions, the number of times I see all vehicles entering junctions (including the yellow marked ones) when there is no hope of getting through is a joke. End result junction blocked. With artics and longer buses in general in heavy traffic they have a major advantage. Has anyone ever read about or studied the concertina effect on traffic? Basically if you have a line of traffic stopped at say a set of lights, once the lights go green each vehicle takes off one by one. The issue is the time between each vehicle moving. So lets say you have a line of traffic 100m long. If all the vehicles were say a 4m car it might take 30 seconds before the last car starts. But lets say the 100m was full of 18m artics, it would only take about 6 seconds before the last vehicle starts to move. Anyway it is more complex than that, but the principle is in congested roads a smaller number of longer vehicles is actually better than a larger number of small vehicles. It is this reason why a laught when I hear about the 73 which is going to have more smaller length buses replacing the artics. Whilst maybe the overall metreage on the road will be less, the mear fact there are more will lead to more congestion. Before you go on to tell us what a fine example to driving the German nation is, try looking at the annual road deaths of Germany compared with the UK. Even adjusted per 1m of population, driving in this country IS far safer than 'sur le continent'. There are many thing tutonic which I admire, but driving skills are NOT necessarily one of them! Not going to vie into a UK V's Germany who is better debate, but I will say that road deaths are not a meassure of how good or how bad the drivers are. There are many other factors that need to be considered. I personally have never driven (or indeed visited Germany), but the orginal poster was very right in saying drivers in the UK are very impatent and I beleive agressive too. I really dislike driving here. I do take my hat off to 'professional' drivers in the UK though, they must have balls of steel. I am a londoner and drive a lot outside of the London. Outside of the South East driving standards on the whole are better in my experience
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Post by ajw on Nov 11, 2009 14:26:12 GMT
I am a londoner and drive a lot outside of the London. Outside of the South East driving standards on the whole are better in my experience Yeah guess saying the UK was a bit much, will agree it is mainly London and the SE more than the rest of the country. Maybe that is what happens when you have too many people and not enough tarmac to go round.
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