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Post by londonbuses2018 on Feb 19, 2019 22:46:25 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 19, 2019 23:15:56 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services. They can be confusing for passengers, except on routes where they're long established. Also, suitable late-running short turns can become complicated. I'm sure there'd be other reasons too. those are just off the top of my head.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 19, 2019 23:48:48 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services. TfL has very few true circular services - i.e. where passengers can ride across the notional "terminus" timing point. The Harrow circulars chuck everyone off at Harrow Bus station rather than offering a through ticket although that's now a tad academic with the hopper ticket. I think TfL, and LT before it, disliked circular services because they are very hard to run effectively in difficult traffic conditions. London has been battling with worsening traffic conditions since the 1950s and is still doing so. Therefore having services with two termini plus multiple curtailment points is a better proposition for TfL and the operator in terms of being able to deal with incidents / traffic conditions. Being chucked off part way round a circle service is no fun if frequencies are relatively low - as they are in Harrow (the H9/10 aren't too bad frequency wise these days but weren't always so). There are not many true circulars left even outside London - I believe NX West Midlands still run Inner and Outer circulars in Birmingham. The latter is very busy, frequent and therefore a money spinner which is probably why it survives. The inner circular still has a decent enough M-F daytime frequency but is rather worse at weekends and in the evenings. The old circular routes in Newcastle upon Tyne which I grew up with went a long time ago and some elements of the old service patterns have gone entirely with long standing links no longer in place. I don't believe the demand to travel between those areas has gone but bus companies have decided not to serve it anymore. I think Trent Barton have some circulars in Derby - the Allestree and Mickleover spring to mind. I think Leicester still has an outer circular run by Centrebus. However other places I've researched for potential vists - like parts of Greater Manchester - are notable for having few or no orbital / circular type routes. You either have to walk or go into the centre and come back out on a radial service. One of the downsides of an obsession with "core routes" on busy corridors to the exclusion of everything else. Towns with very limited shopping hour bus services often have small loop services running hourly around residential areas but interworked across whatever the main stopping point is. These are essentially social services and are a last stop provision for non car owning residents. Even these are now in danger of removal. Happy for others to fill in my knowledge gaps as I'm not up to date on some networks.
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Post by sid on Feb 20, 2019 6:17:53 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services. Good question, they seem to work well in other parts of the country with a circular routing at the outer end of the route picking up and dropping passengers off at the same time, there are a few examples in London like the 138 and 288.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 20, 2019 18:48:09 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services. Of course, there are basically two types of circular services, the truly 'O' shape, although maybe squashed and/or with bulges, and the 'frying pan' route, which is more common and involves both clockwise and anti-clockwise buses running along the 'handle' in both directions. until they take different directions round the 'pan.' I grew up living a few yards from a circular route, the 132, and it helped foster my interest in buses, not that it needed much fostering. I don't recollect any other circular bus routes at that time (basically the 1950s) but there were a couple of circular trolleybus routes, being the 689/690 in the Stratford/East Ham area and the 602/603 in Kingston: you'll notice that in those cases separate numbers were used for each direction. When the 689/690 were converted to bus operation the circular wasn't perpetuated, but a year and a half later, after local opposition to the new arrangements, a circular 272 was created instead. This later morphed into the S1, the number change to indicate the flat fare now charged. The 132 was a 'frying pan' circular and, unlike almost all others that have been created since, had scheduled short workings on the 'handle' bit. It was created just prior to WW2 and ran from Eltham Well Hall Station to Blackfen, then divided to go either via Danson Road or Bexley Village to Bexleyheath and return the other way. Shorts were worked Well Hall to Blackfen during peaks (including Saturdays) but they only came after the war. It would have been an ideal route for Bexleyheath Garage to operate, but the trouble was that was still a trolleybus depot, so Sidcup had to operate it! It provided a rare case of garage journeys operating out of service too, and the bizarre situation of a separate Sunday afternoon service from Well Hall to Bexley Hospital, which ran with black, blank, via blinds with no route number side or back, again I believe unprecedented on red buses at the time (trolleys displayed no route numbers at the side in many cases.) The circular 132 came to an end when BX was converted to diesel and, imo, has never been the same since! i should perhaps mention the trolleybus routes that terminated (or paused, according to interpretaion) around Holborn Circus, having arrived via Grays Inn Road and departed via Farringdon Road, and vice versa, but I don't regard these as circular routes, merely ones with a long terminal loop, albeit one worked in both directions.
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Post by wirewiper on Feb 20, 2019 19:06:26 GMT
Why doesn’t TFL have more circular services. <snip> I grew up living a few yards from a circular route, the 132, and it helped foster my interest in buses, not that it needed much fostering. I don't recollect any other circular bus routes at that time (basically the 1950s) but there were a couple of circular trolleybus routes, being the 689/690 in the Stratford/East Ham area and the 602/603 in Kingston: you'll notice that in those cases separate numbers were used for each direction. The 602 and 603 were odd (but then trolleybus workings often were, trolleybus crews had flexible working agreements and operating practices that would have been complete anathema to their bus colleagues). The 602 ran to and from The Dittons, whilst the 603 ran to and from Tolworth (Red Lion). The 602 ran anti-clockwise around the Kingston Loop whilst the 603 ran clockwise.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 20, 2019 20:38:59 GMT
What a fool I am (don't all agree). I completely forgot the fascinating true circular 156 Morden and Sutton circular via (using route numbers current then and now) the 93, 213 and 164, in both directions, incredibly frequent too. I used to stand at Morden bus station for hours, and it was the most frequent route with the 118. Never got to travel on it though: too young for that, sigh...
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Post by busaholic on Feb 20, 2019 20:41:08 GMT
<snip> I grew up living a few yards from a circular route, the 132, and it helped foster my interest in buses, not that it needed much fostering. I don't recollect any other circular bus routes at that time (basically the 1950s) but there were a couple of circular trolleybus routes, being the 689/690 in the Stratford/East Ham area and the 602/603 in Kingston: you'll notice that in those cases separate numbers were used for each direction. The 602 and 603 were odd (but then trolleybus workings often were, trolleybus crews had flexible working agreements and operating practices that would have been complete anathema to their bus colleagues). The 602 ran to and from The Dittons, whilst the 603 ran to and from Tolworth (Red Lion). The 602 ran anti-clockwise around the Kingston Loop whilst the 603 ran clockwise. It was an odd arrangement - I never got to see them.
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Post by redbus on Feb 21, 2019 15:30:50 GMT
The 268 used to be interesting before the O2 centre was built and it turned around (as opposed to terminate) at Finchley Road Station. The bus left Golders Green as a terminus, to go around Finchley Road station and back the other way to Golders Green. At Finchley Road the bus stopped as any normal stop before returning to Golders Green. There was no waiting and passengers could remain on board with their tickets remaining valid.
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Post by COBO on Feb 28, 2019 17:04:10 GMT
When us bus people say that a certain bus is allocated to bus route route on paper what do we mean by "on Paper"?
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Post by Nathan on Feb 28, 2019 17:08:08 GMT
When us bus people say that a certain bus is allocated to bus route route on paper what do we mean by "on Paper"? We mean its specified vehicles per contractual agreement. The 'on paper' allocations may differ from allocations in practice (e.g. the 41's newly allocated HVs will likely be used on other routes)
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Post by Pilot on Feb 28, 2019 17:19:17 GMT
Happens all time, noticed with 178, the week they went in service with GoAhead all nice and refurb and now you see more and more crappy ones, companies probably try their best to have allocated bus to route but sometimes they gotta rotate when buses go for service so you'll probably never have the same fleet running all the time.
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Post by LVF_Admin on Feb 28, 2019 17:43:25 GMT
Happens all time, noticed with 178, the week they went in service with GoAhead all nice and refurb and now you see more and more crappy ones, companies probably try their best to have allocated bus to route but sometimes they gotta rotate when buses go for service so you'll probably never have the same fleet running all the time. Sorry, That isn't my experience of the 178 and I live on the route, with the exception of EHs covering defective or rota work the allocation has been exactly as it should be the 3 WVLs and the E400s.
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Post by galwhv69 on Feb 28, 2019 21:47:41 GMT
Why do existing buses run on trade plates? Saw SLS6 which has already been in London service but had trade plates heading for Norwood and was being driven instead of on a towtruck
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Post by Pilot on Feb 28, 2019 23:07:11 GMT
Happens all time, noticed with 178, the week they went in service with GoAhead all nice and refurb and now you see more and more crappy ones, companies probably try their best to have allocated bus to route but sometimes they gotta rotate when buses go for service so you'll probably never have the same fleet running all the time. Sorry, That isn't my experience of the 178 and I live on the route, with the exception of EHs covering defective or rota work the allocation has been exactly as it should be the 3 WVLs and the E400s. Lol I won't argue, but I seen some trashy buses on that route few weeks ago but maybe just my luck I suppose. 321 reminds me of P4, they literally run 'whatever' is available, from decent ADL 400 to old trashy WHV with classic manual labor blinds lol.
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