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Post by RM5chris on Jan 26, 2012 15:37:26 GMT
Still seems a little unclear to me as they seem to differ - not an immediate PG9 but yet an offence!
So regardless about whether you pick the bus up from the garage in the morning or do a changover out on the road, if you find no working horn you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive it as the non-working horn makes it an offence to drive. I assume 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' outranks the PG9?
What about LC1's one headlight not working - any chance of clearing that one up whilst you have got the books out?
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Post by Swadbus on Jan 26, 2012 15:46:42 GMT
Right, gonna clear this up!! 1. A horn not working is not an immediate PG9, its is a delayed PG9. It's only immediate if the horn is likely to detatch from the vehicle or no horn is present. HOWEVER as the horn is c 'driver checkable item' it could be marked with an 'S' mark (signifying a significant failure of the maintainance system) but for a small item such as this it is higly unlikely. 2. To drive a vehicle without a working horn is 'illegal'. The Offence code in the 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' (of which i have a copy of) is 'Code 389'. Offence 389, Section 37 of the Road Vehicles (construction and use) Regulations 1986 - No Horn or Horn Inoperative. (VDR)' . This offence only carries a fine and is non-endorsable. Just an idea, can't help but think a "sticky" at the top of the forum would be handy for such information as it is discussed, thus making it easy for any drivers on the forum to refer to? I appreciate that buses themselves are complicated, but topside / walkround check items might prove useful?
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Post by lc1 on Jan 26, 2012 15:52:11 GMT
Still seems a little unclear to me as they seem to differ - not an immediate PG9 but yet an offence! So regardless about whether you pick the bus up from the garage in the morning or do a changover out on the road, if you find no working horn you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive it as the non-working horn makes it an offence to drive. I assume 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' outranks the PG9? What about LC1's one headlight not working - any chance of clearing that one up whilst you have got the books out? From the way I read the VOSA publication it is only an offence if it is on a road without street lighting.
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Post by lc1 on Jan 26, 2012 16:00:36 GMT
Right, gonna clear this up!! 1. A horn not working is not an immediate PG9, its is a delayed PG9. It's only immediate if the horn is likely to detatch from the vehicle or no horn is present. HOWEVER as the horn is c 'driver checkable item' it could be marked with an 'S' mark (signifying a significant failure of the maintainance system) but for a small item such as this it is higly unlikely. 2. To drive a vehicle without a working horn is 'illegal'. The Offence code in the 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' (of which i have a copy of) is 'Code 389'. Offence 389, Section 37 of the Road Vehicles (construction and use) Regulations 1986 - No Horn or Horn Inoperative. (VDR)' . This offence only carries a fine and is non-endorsable. Just an idea, can't help but think a "sticky" at the top of the forum would be handy for such information as it is discussed, thus making it easy for any drivers on the forum to refer to? I appreciate that buses themselves are complicated, but topside / walkround check items might prove useful? Good idea I think you'll approve the new sticky
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Post by john on Jan 26, 2012 16:12:15 GMT
Right, gonna clear this up!! 1. A horn not working is not an immediate PG9, its is a delayed PG9. It's only immediate if the horn is likely to detatch from the vehicle or no horn is present. HOWEVER as the horn is c 'driver checkable item' it could be marked with an 'S' mark (signifying a significant failure of the maintainance system) but for a small item such as this it is higly unlikely. 2. To drive a vehicle without a working horn is 'illegal'. The Offence code in the 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' (of which i have a copy of) is 'Code 389'. Offence 389, Section 37 of the Road Vehicles (construction and use) Regulations 1986 - No Horn or Horn Inoperative. (VDR)' . This offence only carries a fine and is non-endorsable. Just an idea, can't help but think a "sticky" at the top of the forum would be handy for such information as it is discussed, thus making it easy for any drivers on the forum to refer to? I appreciate that buses themselves are complicated, but topside / walkround check items might prove useful? Your wish is my command
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Post by lc1 on Jan 26, 2012 16:13:08 GMT
Just an idea, can't help but think a "sticky" at the top of the forum would be handy for such information as it is discussed, thus making it easy for any drivers on the forum to refer to? I appreciate that buses themselves are complicated, but topside / walkround check items might prove useful? Your wish is my command No mines better
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Post by john on Jan 26, 2012 16:29:22 GMT
Your wish is my command No mines better I do hope you're being clean sir
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Post by slr on Jan 26, 2012 16:58:03 GMT
Still seems a little unclear to me as they seem to differ - not an immediate PG9 but yet an offence! So regardless about whether you pick the bus up from the garage in the morning or do a changover out on the road, if you find no working horn you are quite within your rights to refuse to drive it as the non-working horn makes it an offence to drive. I assume 'Road Traffic Offenders act 1988' outranks the PG9? What about LC1's one headlight not working - any chance of clearing that one up whilst you have got the books out? From the way I read the VOSA publication it is only an offence if it is on a road without street lighting. Use of headlights is only compulsory when visibility falls below 100m
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Post by eggmiester on Jan 27, 2012 3:08:55 GMT
From the way I read the VOSA publication it is only an offence if it is on a road without street lighting. Use of headlights is only compulsory when visibility falls below 100m Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (RTOA) Staes the following as a Non-endorsable offence (Fine only): Offence 475, No Dipped Headlights in Poor Visibility or at Night. (Section 17 of the Road Vehicles lighting Regulations 1989). So in answer to the question it appears to apply to Both Headlamps not working. So one headlamp would suffice (as long as side lamps are working i would suspect).
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Post by slr on Jan 28, 2012 0:53:51 GMT
There seems to be a lot of instances here on VOSA and the police contradicting each other here, I will definatley need to seek clarification from my management on certain points raised here.
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Post by HA2215 on Jan 28, 2012 4:21:40 GMT
The operator concerned tried to discipline the driver for refusing to drive the bus. Its been an ongoing issue and countless drivers have reported it. The horn not working isn't a PG9 and as such our stance would be to request a driver carry on with it. It is however quite an important safety device, and would be repaired at the earliest opportunity, usually the same night. With reference to the first question, the fire extinguisher can be missing and still be an IN, ie still fit for servicee! The Horn is a PG9 it is tested at MOT stage, if it failed to work on an MOT it is a failure .. go next say heasdlight not working dont worry, when I was a driver I refused point blank to take out a bus with the headlight not working tried to say we will get it change on next rounder PAH!! never trust a controller ... before have taken over a bus with no nearside headlight working .. refused to drive it as it is a defect and they said the other drivers do ... it is drivers who dont care who cause every one including the companies problems ... re Fire ex is it not part of the PCV regulations that it has to work ... fire on bus (well my laud) I tried to use the extinguster but it didnt work how do you knwo well check it prior to taking bus over and it didnt show as working by the gauge but got told to take it anyway. sorry but there are some idiots driving the buses nowadays!!
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Post by HA2215 on Jan 28, 2012 4:24:42 GMT
From the way I read the VOSA publication it is only an offence if it is on a road without street lighting. Use of headlights is only compulsory when visibility falls below 100m I can see 150 metres at night with aid of street lights so I dont need my lights on?? SLR what planet you on ... if your a controller forcing drivers to go out with defects I think the TC needs to know about your company!!
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Post by beaver14uk on Jan 28, 2012 12:15:12 GMT
I can assure you my friend is no fool and refused to drive the bus. Its been an ongoing issue with the bus and the company tried to discipline him. VOSA have been made aware. The horn not working isn't a PG9 and as such our stance would be to request a driver carry on with it. It is however quite an important safety device, and would be repaired at the earliest opportunity, usually the same night. With reference to the first question, the fire extinguisher can be missing and still be an IN, ie still fit for servicee! The Horn is a PG9 it is tested at MOT stage, if it failed to work on an MOT it is a failure .. go next say heasdlight not working dont worry, when I was a driver I refused point blank to take out a bus with the headlight not working tried to say we will get it change on next rounder PAH!! never trust a controller ... before have taken over a bus with no nearside headlight working .. refused to drive it as it is a defect and they said the other drivers do ... it is drivers who dont care who cause every one including the companies problems ... re Fire ex is it not part of the PCV regulations that it has to work ... fire on bus (well my laud) I tried to use the extinguster but it didnt work how do you knwo well check it prior to taking bus over and it didnt show as working by the gauge but got told to take it anyway. sorry but there are some idiots driving the buses nowadays!!
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Post by HA2215 on Jan 28, 2012 12:33:09 GMT
I can assure you my friend is no fool and refused to drive the bus. Its been an ongoing issue with the bus and the company tried to discipline him. VOSA have been made aware. The Horn is a PG9 it is tested at MOT stage, if it failed to work on an MOT it is a failure .. go next say heasdlight not working dont worry, when I was a driver I refused point blank to take out a bus with the headlight not working tried to say we will get it change on next rounder PAH!! never trust a controller ... before have taken over a bus with no nearside headlight working .. refused to drive it as it is a defect and they said the other drivers do ... it is drivers who dont care who cause every one including the companies problems ... re Fire ex is it not part of the PCV regulations that it has to work ... fire on bus (well my laud) I tried to use the extinguster but it didnt work how do you knwo well check it prior to taking bus over and it didnt show as working by the gauge but got told to take it anyway. sorry but there are some idiots driving the buses nowadays!! Thank god your friend has sense, I would be up in front of an OM also. as personally to me it is my licence my loss of job if I lose licence etc ... light not working and your aware hit a child naughty child goes to walk out in front of you and horn not working and you hit child naughty ... and the bloke behind the counter who says well you chose to drive the bus could of refused it is your licence
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Post by slr on Jan 28, 2012 21:45:01 GMT
Use of headlights is only compulsory when visibility falls below 100m I can see 150 metres at night with aid of street lights so I dont need my lights on?? SLR what planet you on ... Correct. It's not me that makes the rules, its straight from the horses mouth - ie the Categorisation of Defects manual from VOSA. As best practice, we don't work buses without headlights - i'm just saying we could do so within the confines of legality. I think you also need to differentiate between a test failure and a PG9, they are two very different things and there are numerous things that can go on the road, but won't pass an MOT. Rest assured I am taking on board the obvious contradictions between the CoD book and the Road Traffic Act, and will be raising my concerns with the relevant people and seeking clarification. I would also request you don't imply I am acting illegaly or imorraly in my operating practices, I don't and never will - it's more than my jobs worth. I will also NEVER force a driver to drive anything. I can only ask. Of course I can fully sympathise with the concerns of a driver who would understandably rather not work a vehicle with no horn or headlights - and i'm not saying we routinley run vehicles with long standing faults in these areas. We may however have to use these vehicles short term to aid availability. I would be slaughtered by my superiors were I to have NSBs due to techincally (within the law) servicable vehicles being held off the road.
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