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Post by RM5chris on Jul 18, 2012 13:27:07 GMT
From LBC: -
Wednesday 18th July 2012
Trials of driverless Tube trains are going to start later this year - according to the RMT.
The Union claims to have seen an internal document about plans to move the Jubilee Line to driverless operation within three years,with other lines to follow.
London Underground says it has made no secret that from the 2020 new trains could operate without the need for traditional drivers.
Gareth Powell, Director of Strategy for London Underground, said: "As LU's Managing Director Mike Brown made clear during a huge programme of staff engagement last year, given the technology now available it is very unlikely that London Underground will ever again buy a fleet of trains with conventional drivers' cabs following the rollout of 191 new trains on the District, Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines in 2016.
"Safety will always be our top priority, and we have made no secret that from the 2020s new trains could operate on the Tube without the need for traditional drivers. However we are committed to having visible staffing at our stations. We will always consult with staff on any changes and, because of the timescales needed to develop and introduce new trains and to phase out older fleets, we will continue to need drivers well beyond the point when driverless operation could come into effect."
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Post by daveb0789 on Jul 18, 2012 13:34:18 GMT
That's a load of nonsense. They've been saying that for a while and there is no equipment installed for UTO (unattended train operation)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 13:35:30 GMT
That's a load of nonsense. They've been saying that for a while and there is no equipment installed for UTO (unattended train operation) The union spouting nonsense ... never!!!
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Post by smiler52 on Jul 18, 2012 14:07:42 GMT
what if something goes wrong on the train that a driver can only fix if you ask me its unsafe
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 14:11:55 GMT
Trained driver still is present but simply guards on the train.
Just like DLR has for many years..
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2012 18:57:29 GMT
That's a load of nonsense. They've been saying that for a while and there is no equipment installed for UTO (unattended train operation) Is it a load of nonsense? The quotes from the LU strategy document on the RMT website quite clearly indicate that only 2 Jubilee Line trains would be converted for trial purposes. This would undoubtedly be under possession rules for the initial testing. Of course there is a deliberate blurring of the terminology used by all sides here. The Mayor refers to automatic train operation which most people think means no drivers. Of course it does not mean that at all. However it is convenient for the Mayor to allow the wrong impression to persist because it suits his image and "agenda" for "tackling tube inefficiency". Richard Tracey, Tory GLA member, is quoted on the BBC website today repeating this nonsense that ATO equals driverless trains. The RMT and ASLEF will naturally want to preserve the existing job role and the pay and conditions. Despite the operational concept on the DLR they will not want to see that on LU if it means cuts to pay and conditions which I am sure is the intent. They obviously want to terrify people on safety issues to generate public resistance and sympathy for any strike action. I think the public already have considerable concerns about LU trains and stations without any staff at all. I think that concept is unacceptable to them on safety grounds and they'd take a lot of convincing. The ATO / DLR concept is an easier sell but does not unlock all the cost savings that LU is being pressured to deliver. I am completely sure that the desired end state for LU is to get as many staff off trains and stations as possible. ATO and Train Captains are an interim step towards a demanned, highly automated system as seen in places like Singapore. The huge problem though is that LU's infrastructure is ancient and there must be a hope that technology will come to the rescue to improve fire safety and tunnel heat levels. I have travelled on the fully automatic lines in Singapore and they're fine if a little impersonal. You do see roving staff on trains but not every one. However the fundamental issue is that the system is designed to get people out quickly in the event of problems. We'll never get that in London. I recently used the VAL in Lille which has tiny trains running very frequently. I must admit to being worried as to how they would deal with a fire on a train in the tunnel sections. Each carriage is locked so you cannot move from one car to the next - if there was a fire in the leading car you could not escape to the next car. I assume London will, in future, have walkthrough deep tube trains (same concept as S Stock). Everyone has an axe to grind about "driverless" trains. It's just a shame that all the axe grinding stops the truth being told.
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Post by daveb0789 on Jul 18, 2012 20:54:59 GMT
Thanks for the excellent post snoggle. Not sure if people already know this but on the DLR they work a 35 hour week and despite not being drivers are paid 37k a year - far more than a bus driver but less than the 46.5k a tube driver currently gets.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 21:03:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 21:05:18 GMT
How many commuters use the DLR ... they do not have any worries about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 21:09:07 GMT
How many commuters use the DLR ... they do not have any worries about it. It is easier to get out of DLR trains since the tunnels have walkways and are not tight. They probably dont complain because they probably know theres a escape route in case of an emergency and a easy one as well. But on LU, getting to a escape route is really tough in tunnels since there are only 2 exits
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2012 21:43:45 GMT
Now you see I don't think this is Boris's plan. He wants TfL to spend a lot less money but is not terribly interested in the detail provided he doesn't come a cropper politically. He wants there to be fewer strikes but is happy for the law to be changed to achieve that. I think the plan really comes from TfL / LUL who have seen the technology that is available and they desparately want to get that new technology in place. The end game is a railway that costs a huge amount less to operate because you need fewer drivers, station staff, support staff. You can slash a lot of engineers too once a lot of clever technology is in place and working methods have changed. If they can get the concepts right and the safety right then there is a huge efficiency gain to be achieved. It will take about 20-35 years to roll out on the entire network so Boris will be long gone. The imperative now is to get the technology "tested" on the network to convince today's politicians so the funding for the new train design and first upgrades using them can be secured for the next 10 years or so. Part of the plan will be to convince the public about the safety issues but not now. This is why the "driverless trains plan" has been denied by TfL but also why the RMT want to up the ante now. Both sides have their strategies about how to achieve their particular ends. Ironically I don't think Boris has a plan on this at all other than to be the mouthpiece for TfL's plans. He just wants to cut TfL's spending.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 21:45:02 GMT
How many commuters use the DLR ... they do not have any worries about it. It is easier to get out of DLR trains since the tunnels have walkways and are not tight. They probably dont complain because they probably know theres a escape route in case of an emergency and a easy one as well. But on LU, getting to a escape route is really tough in tunnels since there are only 2 exits and the point being ... There is already a precedent for driverless operation in London ... why would people that get off a driverless DLR train at Canary Wharf ... suddenly recoil in horror and going downstairs and boarding a driverless tube train . How many times has a DLR car had to be evacuated ... in times of emergency ... you do what is needed
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Post by daveb0789 on Jul 18, 2012 22:27:14 GMT
The DLR operates above ground the majority of the time. The sections below ground have escape walkways. This is not the case in deep level tube tunnels.
Anyway we currently don't have unmanned trains. The DLR has a 37k member of staff on board each train.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 18, 2012 23:46:59 GMT
Trained driver still is present but simply guards on the train. Just like DLR has for many years.. Have to agree with this and 'DLA180's' posts. If it works on the DLR, why can't it on the tube? And who says they will be unmanned. Driverless is not the same as unmanned - there will be someone in the cab should something happen. Have people forgotten that planes are put in auto-pilot - haven't heard anyone complain about that. It's about time tube drivers got some payback for the strikes they've put Londoners through over the years.
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Post by joefrombow on Jul 19, 2012 4:22:45 GMT
If he is sitting in a cab doing a 'train captain's' job (like he does already on the central , jubilee , victoria and very soon the northern ) I don't think people would really give a monkeys, it's the whole thought of there being no one in charge as it were that would scare the general public I however do think there is a big difference in the infrastructure on the Tube network compared to the DLR which was built and made to be driverless, not just that the health and safety and security aspect of making the Tube driverless I just don't think London would want it even in a couple of years .
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