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Post by DT 11 on Dec 4, 2012 18:42:29 GMT
Many may have heard about this before.
My personal opinion.
1. Your Life will be in the hands of a Computer! 2. Most of the tube is Underground and incidents occur on the tubes a lot. So If the train is Radio Controlled how is it going to stop! 3. Job Cuts! 4. The Tube Carries thousands a day, do people really want a Machine controlling it! 5. This is under the ground so It will not be easy to control! Suppose Passengers had to get off due to an incident in the middle of the Tunnel. So who is going to assist them.
What are your views?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 19:11:19 GMT
Do bear in mind here the DLR, which has a very similar situation.
1. Your life's in a hands of a computer with the DLR. In fact, most of our lives is in the hands of a computer. When you go to a hospital and have a heart rate monitor or a life support machine, your life is in the hands of a computer. 2. Incidents like that could become a serious problem, I agree. Being Underground there's no mobile signal. 3. Job cuts would be a serious problem in this economic climate. 4. Public perception shouldn't necessarily ultimately define what's best, though I'm of course aware we live in a democracy! 5. This could be solved by having someone like the PSAs on the DLR, though if the incident involved the PSA being injured etc., then it would become a problem. Same applies for point 2 as well, I suppose.
Also worth considering the All Saints incident on the DLR, where somebody fell onto the tracks and the operator didn't notice in time before they could stop the train, which meant it ran them over - in a driver-operated train, the driver problem would've noticed from further and could've potentially stopped the train. As it happened, the operator didn't have sufficient visual on the track in general and the train was only stopped because it was noticed on a camera not meant for such a purpose, even if it did eventually and unfortunately kill the person in question.
On the basis of that, I'm going to go with "no". Mainly because of the serious caveat of security reasons, and also because firing hundreds of train drivers in such an economic climate is not brilliant at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 22:52:54 GMT
I have gone for 'no', but if you had put a 'not sure' option I might have gone for that.
metrobus and mredd, you have both made some great and valid points.
Ultimately, I think it is safer if we continue having drivers. But, if eventually driverless tubes are introduced, I do think they will be relatively safe, especially as they will probably have a PSA type person (although, as mredd has pointed out, they can't spot out dangers as quickly). Driverless tubes is not something i'd really like to see happen.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 5, 2012 1:58:27 GMT
We have a similar system in place on the tube & monorail already - it's called ATO on the Victoria, DLR, Central & Jubilee Lines. So to tackle the points raised
1. Agree with 'mredd' - our lives already depend on computers who, on the whole, do the job. 2. Underground shouldn't affect it. I mean, the Victoria Line has been ATO since it opened in the late 60's 3. Tube drivers are greedy & strike too much so we could make a saving there 4. Same as point 1. 5. There will still be a PSA type person there
All in all, bring it in quickly please so we can put an end to tube strikes.
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 5, 2012 7:54:27 GMT
The DLR may be driverless yes. The tube is underground it's a bad Idea IMO. I wonder how tube drivers feel about this because their jobs will be on the line. Next the London Overground will be driverless .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 9:12:01 GMT
The DLR may be driverless yes. The tube is underground it's a bad Idea IMO. I wonder how tube drivers feel about this because their jobs will be on the line. Next the London Overground will be driverless . And the DLR does not have tunnelled sections? Tube drivers and their actions are the reason I favour driverless trains ... one less group (infact probably the most militant - and Mr Crow would lose a lot of power ) to bring disruption to London ... would be no sympathy for them here.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 5, 2012 11:03:05 GMT
The DLR may be driverless yes. The tube is underground it's a bad Idea IMO. I wonder how tube drivers feel about this because their jobs will be on the line. Next the London Overground will be driverless . Last time I looked, the Victoria Line is underground - fully underground apart from the depot in fact and has been run under ATO since the late 60's. I couldn't give a stuff about tube drivers because they strike far too much and are very greedy, just like the RMT union that some are under. We've got another strike on Boxing Day - do tube drivers care how that impacts on everyone else - I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 12:04:44 GMT
bring on the driverless train just for the Aldwych branch. Not forget the JLE extension because of PED's
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Post by daveb0789 on Dec 5, 2012 13:25:44 GMT
It won't happen for a very long time. I still drive buses, coaches and trains on a regular basis so I'm in a position to comment in the technicalities.
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Post by vjaska on Dec 5, 2012 13:36:27 GMT
bring on the driverless train just for the Aldwych branch. Not forget the JLE extension because of PED's The Aldwych branch has been closed for many years.
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Post by M1104 on Dec 5, 2012 14:19:13 GMT
I am definitely not in favour of driverless tube trains particularly on the issue of safety and comfort. In plain basic practice it's just another piece of technology that can go wrong.
Trains often get stuck in tunnels as it is with drivers on board, would be more complicated if there's a 'stubborn' machine mostly at the helm.
Reminds me of an episode of Star Trek where Captain Kirk's Enterprise was controlled by the automated M1 machine, which then went crazy shooting at other starships. Science-fiction I know but the logic is very similar in terms of possible malfunctions.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 5, 2012 15:45:45 GMT
Many may have heard about this before. My personal opinion. 1. Your Life will be in the hands of a Computer! 2. Most of the tube is Underground and incidents occur on the tubes a lot. So If the train is Radio Controlled how is it going to stop! 3. Job Cuts! 4. The Tube Carries thousands a day, do people really want a Machine controlling it! 5. This is under the ground so It will not be easy to control! Suppose Passengers had to get off due to an incident in the middle of the Tunnel. So who is going to assist them. What are your views? 1. You are in the hands of computers on lots of lines already and the number of such lines will only ever increase. 2. Actually most of the Tube network is on the surface and not in tunnel. 3. There will always be pressure to reduce costs and that means staff numbers. That's inescapable. 4. Machines already control vast parts of signalling, trains, station systems, pumps, points etc. The level of automation will only ever increase as technology marches on. 5. The real issue is ensuring safety and LU is a very old system with poor facilities for evacuation. This is the biggest impediment to fully automatic trains. I have travelled on fully automatic Metro lines in a few places. There is nothing wrong with them per se. The only one which caused me concern was the VAL based Metro in Lille where each car of the short two cars was locked off from the adjacent one. In the event of fire in one car you could not move to the next car. I found that worrying. LU trains don't have this feature and movement between cars is relatively easy. I believe we will see ATO on all LU lines although there are some significant challenges in achieving that objective. I don't think we will have completely unmanned trains as there is not the money to create side walkways and additional evacuation shafts - things that are often designed into new fully automatic lines. I also do not think the public could be swayed to accept conversion of an existing line. If we ever build a brand new LU or fully segregated Crossrail line then I think it would be fully automatic from day one and the public would have to accept it but it would be feasible for TfL to point to extra safety features to quell concerns.
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Post by mondraker275 on Dec 5, 2012 15:59:42 GMT
No Point Really. The benefit will be minimal (if any), plus the cost of introducing it, and then staff will still probably be paid to be on board, since computers cant quite yet give first aid or reassure passengers.
How will the emergency button work? Passenger: Im so very ill Computer: Sudbery Hill is on the Piccadily Line. Passenger: I feel very sick, stop the train please! Computer: Response unrecognised, would you like me to search 'I ill every sick, stop the rain please'
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 17:21:09 GMT
DLR you can get out no problemo but on LU, where the hell are you going to get out from. you cant raid the cab, you'd have a computer attacking you . they should have used crossrail as a means of testing it out and to see if it actually is safe and works Also on DLR and the ATO lines, you have a member of staff available but driverless trains there are none on board. What driverless means is absolutely no staff on the train. no PSA or something like that. Next thing you know, you'll have driverless buses and trams ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 17:50:53 GMT
No Point Really. The benefit will be minimal (if any), plus the cost of introducing it, and then staff will still probably be paid to be on board, since computers cant quite yet give first aid or reassure passengers. How will the emergency button work? Passenger: Im so very ill Computer: Sudbery Hill is on the Piccadily Line. Passenger: I feel very sick, stop the train please! Computer: Response unrecognised, would you like me to search 'I ill every sick, stop the rain please' How does it work at present - you do not have direct contact witht hte driver - you wait till the station or pull the emergency alarm which will delay you getting treatment even longer. Station staff can give the first aid and reassure passenger as probably they would now This example would be no different than from today
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