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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 13:08:12 GMT
Why on earth would we need 850 extra revenue officers? Nobody is perfect we all forget things, if somebody gets on without an oyster and offers cash they cannot be refused travel, it would just cause endless arguments and delays. Agree with that. Extra revenue officers for checking/catching people. Or use the money for extra police officers. Catch people doing what? Attempting to pay in cash? Sorry but I can see no sense in what you are saying.
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Post by IanF on Apr 16, 2013 13:17:52 GMT
Agree with that. Extra revenue officers for checking/catching people. Or use the money for extra police officers. Catch people doing what? Attempting to pay in cash? Sorry but I can see no sense in what you are saying. Catch people who have borrowed / stolen freedom passes / childs oysters which means they are fare evading.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 9:51:27 GMT
Catch people doing what? Attempting to pay in cash? Sorry but I can see no sense in what you are saying. Catch people who have borrowed / stolen freedom passes / childs oysters which means they are fare evading. Are there really enough people doing that to justify spending £30 million on 850 revenue inspectors to try and catch them? It sounds like a classic case of trying to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. Getting back to the cashless issue, nobody has come up with an answer as to what happens when Mr Networker93 boards a 146 at Downe and discovers he's lost his oyster or it doesn't have enough credit. Oh well never mind he thinks and digs £2.30 in cash out of his pocket and puts it on the drivers tray............what happens next
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 10:14:18 GMT
Catch people who have borrowed / stolen freedom passes / childs oysters which means they are fare evading. Are there really enough people doing that to justify spending £30 million on 850 revenue inspectors to try and catch them? It sounds like a classic case of trying to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. Getting back to the cashless issue, nobody has come up with an answer as to what happens when Mr Networker93 boards a 146 at Downe and discovers he's lost his oyster or it doesn't have enough credit. Oh well never mind he thinks and digs £2.30 in cash out of his pocket and puts it on the drivers tray............what happens next I don't think cash should ever stop being taken for that exact reason - nobody can be sure to have their Oyster card with them, 100% of the time, and always be within range of an outlet that would top up an Oyster card. The "Downe problem" that you mention above is exactly an example of this - another one is if you go slightly over the London border on a cross-border route. The prices for a cash fare are already off-putting to 99% of users, as they're almost twice as much as an Oyster fare. That doesn't, however, mean that spontaneous travel or the need to get a bus without your Oyster around will never happen - and people can pay the extra price for the emergency situation they find themselves in and the slight extra burden of cash over an Oyster card. I can't remember if it was in this thread that someone mentioned there could be an exact change policy - the bus fare is £2.40 and if you pay anything above that don't expect change. Therefore you can put a value on your journey - if you've only got £5 and you're stuck in the middle of nowhere then the £5 is a price worth paying. It would also stop the whole "float" problem and people getting on the bus and waving a £10 note just to get a UFN.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 10:27:53 GMT
Are there really enough people doing that to justify spending £30 million on 850 revenue inspectors to try and catch them? It sounds like a classic case of trying to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me. Getting back to the cashless issue, nobody has come up with an answer as to what happens when Mr Networker93 boards a 146 at Downe and discovers he's lost his oyster or it doesn't have enough credit. Oh well never mind he thinks and digs £2.30 in cash out of his pocket and puts it on the drivers tray............what happens next I don't think cash should ever stop being taken for that exact reason - nobody can be sure to have their Oyster card with them, 100% of the time, and always be within range of an outlet that would top up an Oyster card. The "Downe problem" that you mention above is exactly an example of this - another one is if you go slightly over the London border on a cross-border route. The prices for a cash fare are already off-putting to 99% of users, as they're almost twice as much as an Oyster fare. That doesn't, however, mean that spontaneous travel or the need to get a bus without your Oyster around will never happen - and people can pay the extra price for the emergency situation they find themselves in and the slight extra burden of cash over an Oyster card. I can't remember if it was in this thread that someone mentioned there could be an exact change policy - the bus fare is £2.40 and if you pay anything above that don't expect change. Therefore you can put a value on your journey - if you've only got £5 and you're stuck in the middle of nowhere then the £5 is a price worth paying. It would also stop the whole "float" problem and people getting on the bus and waving a £10 note just to get a UFN. There may be some possible abuse by some drivers though, for instance if somebody gives a £10 note for a £2.40 fare the driver could just pay in £2.40 and keep £7.60 for themselves.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2013 10:36:03 GMT
I don't think cash should ever stop being taken for that exact reason - nobody can be sure to have their Oyster card with them, 100% of the time, and always be within range of an outlet that would top up an Oyster card. The "Downe problem" that you mention above is exactly an example of this - another one is if you go slightly over the London border on a cross-border route. The prices for a cash fare are already off-putting to 99% of users, as they're almost twice as much as an Oyster fare. That doesn't, however, mean that spontaneous travel or the need to get a bus without your Oyster around will never happen - and people can pay the extra price for the emergency situation they find themselves in and the slight extra burden of cash over an Oyster card. I can't remember if it was in this thread that someone mentioned there could be an exact change policy - the bus fare is £2.40 and if you pay anything above that don't expect change. Therefore you can put a value on your journey - if you've only got £5 and you're stuck in the middle of nowhere then the £5 is a price worth paying. It would also stop the whole "float" problem and people getting on the bus and waving a £10 note just to get a UFN. There may be some possible abuse by some drivers though, for instance if somebody gives a £10 note for a £2.40 fare the driver could just pay in £2.40 and keep £7.60 for themselves. Not if you use the Dublin Bus system. When I was over there in around 2006, their policy was exact fare with no change given (fare at that time was 1 Euro, 35 Cents). No money is paid to the driver, it goes into a metal box next to the driver who pushes some button to allow the money to enter it. Then, from the ticket machine, you get a ticket. 'Chris' will be better placed to elaborate as he has been on Dublin Buses more than myself
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Post by M1104 on Apr 17, 2013 10:51:35 GMT
There may be some possible abuse by some drivers though, for instance if somebody gives a £10 note for a £2.40 fare the driver could just pay in £2.40 and keep £7.60 for themselves. Not if you use the Dublin Bus system. When I was over there in around 2006, their policy was exact fare with no change given (fare at that time was 1 Euro, 35 Cents). No money is paid to the driver, it goes into a metal box next to the driver who pushes some button to allow the money to enter it. Then, from the ticket machine, you get a ticket. 'Chris' will be better placed to elaborate as he has been on Dublin Buses more than myself It was similar to that with the New York Transit Authority except that you had to buy tokens beforehand to put in the box.
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Post by westhamgeezer on Apr 17, 2013 11:22:45 GMT
TfL should try and get petrol stations and supermarkets to do oyster top ups, as a lot of petrol stations and supermarkets are open 24 hours and or longer than other top up shops/ outlets. TfL could/should put machines by the side of the road where passengers can top up their oyster cards similar to the cash ones in the center of London, but the oyster card top ups can only be paid for by a credit/debit card, thus reducing the need for maintenance (collecting cash and general servicing). This would be very unpopular, putting cash fairs up to £2.50 or £3.00 so people would be put off with paying cash, also make the buses correct change only. I expect that TfL have already tried to put Oyster sales into supermarkets and petrol stations. I strongly suspect that the level of commission that TfL pays is far too low for those outlets to be interested. They would not want to have extra specialist equipment in their stores / garages plus all the complexity of TfL's ticket products. You could not really restrict the outlets to just PAYG - passengers would want to be able to buy bus passes and Travelcards too. Supermarkets are only interested in things that are low risk and high margin when outside of their core business. I do think that putting machines into bus stations / interchanges is a reasonable idea but they cost a lot of money and are prone to theft / skimming frauds depending on if they take cash / cards. TfL are in the process of getting rid of the existing roadside machines which are simple bits of kits compared to what an Oyster compatible device would be like. TfL's strategy is to get out of "specialist" ticketing equipment and processes as far as it can - hence the emerging push towards bank cards and probably compatible mobile phones. The other element is to try to push auto top up and on line ticket purchases. I think more people would use auto top up if there was more flexibility for people to choose the amount of top up. At present TfL fixes the amount that can be auto topped up at either £20 or £40. I would like to use auto-top up, but living in south London I use buses in the main and, auto top up only works from a designated tube station. If it would work on buses too, then I would happily use it
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Post by snoggle on Apr 17, 2013 12:17:55 GMT
I expect that TfL have already tried to put Oyster sales into supermarkets and petrol stations. I strongly suspect that the level of commission that TfL pays is far too low for those outlets to be interested. They would not want to have extra specialist equipment in their stores / garages plus all the complexity of TfL's ticket products. You could not really restrict the outlets to just PAYG - passengers would want to be able to buy bus passes and Travelcards too. Supermarkets are only interested in things that are low risk and high margin when outside of their core business. I do think that putting machines into bus stations / interchanges is a reasonable idea but they cost a lot of money and are prone to theft / skimming frauds depending on if they take cash / cards. TfL are in the process of getting rid of the existing roadside machines which are simple bits of kits compared to what an Oyster compatible device would be like. TfL's strategy is to get out of "specialist" ticketing equipment and processes as far as it can - hence the emerging push towards bank cards and probably compatible mobile phones. The other element is to try to push auto top up and on line ticket purchases. I think more people would use auto top up if there was more flexibility for people to choose the amount of top up. At present TfL fixes the amount that can be auto topped up at either £20 or £40. I would like to use auto-top up, but living in south London I use buses in the main and, auto top up only works from a designated tube station. If it would work on buses too, then I would happily use it I think you need to go any Oyster equipped station which includes loads of places in SE London. I have double checked on the TfL website and all LU, DLR, NR stations and Tramlink stops can be used to collect PAYG top up *and* activate Auto top up for the first time. I did this by logging on to my own card account and going through the steps to set up auto top up. The issue is that TfL need a fixed location to send the automatic activation instruction to. It is not possible to do this with buses. Once Auto Top Up is activated on your card it will always trigger the auto top when a card with less than £10 balance is presented - even on a TfL bus.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 12:44:13 GMT
Not if you use the Dublin Bus system. When I was over there in around 2006, their policy was exact fare with no change given (fare at that time was 1 Euro, 35 Cents). No money is paid to the driver, it goes into a metal box next to the driver who pushes some button to allow the money to enter it. Then, from the ticket machine, you get a ticket. 'Chris' will be better placed to elaborate as he has been on Dublin Buses more than myself It was similar to that with the New York Transit Authority except that you had to buy tokens beforehand to put in the box. That was a nightmare when I went over to New York. However, the four of us went into 57th St Station to purchase a Metro Weekly card which was 20 dollars each and that was for the whole of MTA network which include unlimitd travel even on trains. Back on topic. To elaborate on what Vj was explainning about the DB issue, you can ask for a refund if you paid for a €1.35 fare with a €2 coin. Then they would print out a refund ticket with €0.65 refund due. To get this refund you would have to go into head office and claim it, the good thing is the head office is based in the City Center.
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Post by 52000 on Apr 17, 2013 15:39:12 GMT
There may be some possible abuse by some drivers though, for instance if somebody gives a £10 note for a £2.40 fare the driver could just pay in £2.40 and keep £7.60 for themselves. Not if you use the Dublin Bus system. When I was over there in around 2006, their policy was exact fare with no change given (fare at that time was 1 Euro, 35 Cents). No money is paid to the driver, it goes into a metal box next to the driver who pushes some button to allow the money to enter it. Then, from the ticket machine, you get a ticket. 'Chris' will be better placed to elaborate as he has been on Dublin Buses more than myself Same with Reading.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 0:59:20 GMT
Not if you use the Dublin Bus system. When I was over there in around 2006, their policy was exact fare with no change given (fare at that time was 1 Euro, 35 Cents). No money is paid to the driver, it goes into a metal box next to the driver who pushes some button to allow the money to enter it. Then, from the ticket machine, you get a ticket. 'Chris' will be better placed to elaborate as he has been on Dublin Buses more than myself Same with Reading. I'm sure London Transport had something similar to this. Hence why I've been seeing "Exact Change Please" on DMS, etc.
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Post by guybowden on Apr 18, 2013 9:58:21 GMT
As a trail, TfL could stop the use of cash fares during peak hours (Phase 1 7-9am and 5-7pm), and if it is successful roll it out over greater time scales. Phase 2 could be 7-10am and 4-7pm, Phase 3 could be 6-11am and 3-8pm and then Phase 4 could be 6am-9pm. But keep cash fares available at night times when it becomes harder to top up your oyster card. It shouldn't be too much of a problem to roll out as I'm guessing it would be a software update on the ticket machines and stack load of advertising. The time scale for implementing the changes could be 3 to 6 months per phase.
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Post by IanF on Apr 18, 2013 12:47:39 GMT
As a trail, TfL could stop the use of cash fares during peak hours (Phase 1 7-9am and 5-7pm), and if it is successful roll it out over greater time scales. Phase 2 could be 7-10am and 4-7pm, Phase 3 could be 6-11am and 3-8pm and then Phase 4 could be 6am-9pm. But keep cash fares available at night times when it becomes harder to top up your oyster card. It shouldn't be too much of a problem to roll out as I'm guessing it would be a software update on the ticket machines and stack load of advertising. The time scale for implementing the changes could be 3 to 6 months per phase. That is a very good idea Guy as it would speed up boarding when its really needed imo.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 21:47:59 GMT
I think it would just lead to more delays and arguments at peak times I'm afraid. I think we have to accept that cash fares are going to be with us for quite a while yet.
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