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Post by greenboy on Apr 7, 2024 8:01:39 GMT
Now that we're a few weeks into the Croydon and Sutton changes, here's how I think some of the routes affected can be improved: Firstly, Route 439: Extend from Waddon Marsh to Beddington Asda via IKEA Croydon and Beddington Lane. At the other end, there are two options to extend the route from Whyteleafe South: Option 1: Extend the 439 to Caterham-on-the-Hill via Burntwood Lane, Whyteleafe Hill, Salmons Lane West, Ninehams Road, Caterham-on-the-Hill Tesco finishing at Westway Common. To help free up stand space at Westway Common and to provide a new TfL link, the 404 is extended to Caterham Station and runs round Caterham Village, replacing Metrobus route 411 which only serves Caterham Village during off peak times. Option 2: Extend the 439 to Warlingham Sainsbury's via Succombs Hill, Westhall Road and Warlingham Green, following the 403 route to Warlingham Sainsbury's. In both cases, rerouted between Whyteleafe and Kenley via the Godstone Road with the 434 reverting back to its original route between Whyteleafe and Kenley Station via Beverley Road. PVR increased to 4 and frequency increased to every 20 minutes. Whilst the 439 has started to gain traction and is rather well used, especially during peak hours, I still feel like the route could be a little more useful. Almost its entire route is duplicated by another with the exception of taking over the 434's routing between Whyteleafe and Purley to enable the 434 to eventually serve the top end of Kenley. The 439 was originally meant to go down the Godstone Road in the first place and was only re-routed when it was confirmed the 434's rerouting was going to be delayed. I think this was because TfL wanted to make it a little more cost effective than it would have been if it followed its original proposed route, so with these changes giving the 439 a little more independence, and given the amount of parked cars on Valley Road, it would make sense to swap the 434 and 439's routing between Whyteleafe and Kenley. Extending the 439 to Beddington Asda would provide Whyteleafe, Kenley and Purley with a new direct bus link to Valley Park and IKEA Croydon as well as reintroducing the lost link between Purley and Beddington that the 455 used to give (though it went round the houses in doing so!). It would also free up space at Waddon Marsh which is too congested now that both the 439 and S4 terminate there. Keeping the S4 at Waddon Marsh in the meantime would retain the link between Wallington and West Croydon. There's also the possibility of terminating the 439 in Valley Park, either at the Franklin Way bus stop or within the retail park itself. It's almost a no brainer really if TfL want more patronage for the 439. On the Whyteleafe end, I know that both of these routes fall into Surrey County Council territory and Whyteleafe to Caterham-on-the-Hill is not within the ULEZ zone, but if TfL want more people to use the bus in outer London area, these areas present a great opportunity to have a TfL route serve them. Potential customers would see a TfL bus as more affordable and therefore be more inclined to use it, especially once the £2 bus fare scheme ends for Metrobus routes. Personally, I'd prefer Option 1 as it gives these areas of Whyteleafe and Caterham a new direct bus link to Kenley, Purley and onwards to Waddon Marsh and Beddington. However, Option 2 overlaps with just the 403 and there's not currently a link between Warlingham and Kenley/Purley whereas option 1 follows the 409 almost all the way to Caterham Station and meets the 404 and 466, but clearly this didn't stop TfL from sending the 439 to Waddon Marsh, duplicating the 289 all the way from Purley and the infrequency of the 409 and 411 gives TfL more reason to extend it to Caterham-on-the-Hill. Route 166 and 312: Swap routing between Swan and Sugar Loaf and Purley Cross, with the 166 reverting back to its original route via the Brighton Road and the 312 fully replacing the 455 between Old Lodge Lane and Purley by following the 455's old route from Warham Road to Purley Cross. Instead, the 166 could be re-routed to serve Croydon Old Town as TfL desired with the 407/443 in the original plans and terminate in Croydon Town Centre via Katharine Street. This could also be fulfilled by the 405. I feel re-routing the 166 to replace the 455 rather than the 312 was a little unnecessary. Yes, maybe it was done with a vision that EMC's may have been used on the 312 so needed to pass South Croydon Garage in case they needed to be run in, but they're not around anymore so there's no reason why the 312 shouldn't have been re-routed via Warham Road and Pampisford Road into Purley. There's a lot of confusion caused by the 166 being re-routed too, so swapping the two makes sense. I also feel that the only change that could have been made to the 166 was to send it via Croydon Old Town instead of the 407/443 proposal, however this could also be done by the 405 which can loop back round to Croydon Town Centre so doesn't lose its link to the Whitgift Centre which would be lost if the 166 went round there. Routes 403 and 407: 403 extended from West Croydon to Sutton Town Centre, PVR increased to 14. 407 withdrawn between West Croydon and Sutton Town Centre - for reasons I've previously mentioned on other threads. Simply I feel the 403 would be a more reliable route to extend to Sutton seeing as it barely gets held up by traffic between Warlingham and West Croydon when the 407 suffers badly, whilst continuing to supplement the SL7 between West Croydon and Sutton. There’s a lot of routes in Croydon that you probably could split. The 466 might be the most beneficial one to split given that it definitely does not need an 8 min frequency on the Croydon-Addington Section. I think rerouting the 353 to Croydon after Addington via the 466 could be useful, the 353 has a much more reasonable frequency for that section & a Croydon-Orpington route could be potentially useful. The 314 could takeover the Forestdale section & the 433 extended to New Addington replacing the 314. On the Orpington end, I would curtail the 353 to the Walnuts Centre, divert the 61 to Ramsden Estate & introduce a new 361 to run between Orpington & Eltham. The 194 is another one that could possibly be split due to how indirect the route is. I agree about replacing the Addington section of the 466 with the 353 and restoring the direct link between Croydon and Orpington although I think the 433 could do a double run to serve Forestdale and the 314 stay as it is. I agree that Ramsden Estate needs a direct link to Bromley although I don't think the 194 necessarily needs to be split but it does duplicate the 358 between Eden Park and Penge which isn't a great use of resources.
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Post by bk10mfe on Apr 7, 2024 8:27:13 GMT
There’s a lot of routes in Croydon that you probably could split. The 466 might be the most beneficial one to split given that it definitely does not need an 8 min frequency on the Croydon-Addington Section. I think rerouting the 353 to Croydon after Addington via the 466 could be useful, the 353 has a much more reasonable frequency for that section & a Croydon-Orpington route could be potentially useful. The 314 could takeover the Forestdale section & the 433 extended to New Addington replacing the 314. On the Orpington end, I would curtail the 353 to the Walnuts Centre, divert the 61 to Ramsden Estate & introduce a new 361 to run between Orpington & Eltham. The 194 is another one that could possibly be split due to how indirect the route is. I agree about replacing the Addington section of the 466 with the 353 and restoring the direct link between Croydon and Orpington although I think the 433 could do a double run to serve Forestdale and the 314 stay as it is. I agree that Ramsden Estate needs a direct link to Bromley although I don't think the 194 necessarily needs to be split although it does follow the 358 between Eden Park Penge which isn't a great use of resources. The main reason why I suggested rerouting the 314 to Forestdale is because it would maintain the 353’s links as far as Hayes, while the 433 only goes as far as Addington. I imagine the Forestdale section of the 353 is lightly used though.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 7, 2024 8:29:36 GMT
I agree about replacing the Addington section of the 466 with the 353 and restoring the direct link between Croydon and Orpington although I think the 433 could do a double run to serve Forestdale and the 314 stay as it is. I agree that Ramsden Estate needs a direct link to Bromley although I don't think the 194 necessarily needs to be split although it does follow the 358 between Eden Park Penge which isn't a great use of resources. The main reason why I suggested rerouting the 314 to Forestdale is because it would maintain the 353’s links as far as Hayes, while the 433 only goes as far as Addington. I imagine the Forestdale section of the 353 is lightly used though. I think most people from Forestdale want to go to Selsdon or Croydon and so the 353 isn't much use to them.
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Post by londonbusbro on Apr 13, 2024 20:32:39 GMT
heres some: 415- Old Kent Road-Canada Water via bermondsey and surrey quays 432- Anerley- Bromley North taking the same route the N3 times and maybe partially replacing the 227 133- Holborn - Tottenham Court Road
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Post by abellion on Apr 13, 2024 20:36:09 GMT
heres some: 415- Old Kent Road-Canada Water via bermondsey and surrey quays 432- Anerley- Bromley North taking the same route the N3 times and maybe partially replacing the 227 133- Holborn - Tottenham Court Road Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas
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Post by bk10mfe on Apr 13, 2024 22:00:00 GMT
heres some: 415- Old Kent Road-Canada Water via bermondsey and surrey quays 432- Anerley- Bromley North taking the same route the N3 times and maybe partially replacing the 227 133- Holborn - Tottenham Court Road Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas The 432 extension to Elmers End looks quite interesting but traffic often prevalent at the Elmers End/Croydon Road Junction may hinder this from occurring. I wonder if the 358 could be rerouted via Elmers End Road, given that the 194 parallels it between Eden Park & Penge. I wonder if the 162 & 227 could also swap routings between Beckenham & Bromley so that the 227 could be decked.
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Post by niceabcd on Apr 13, 2024 22:00:57 GMT
I had some ideas for North East London, including the re-numbering of existing routes and introduction of new routes as well as extensions.
347: Extended to Lakeside via West Road, Arisdale Avenue, Belhus Daiglen Drive, Belhus Fairham Avenue, Belhus Foyle Drive, Belhus Stifford Road, Aveley High Street, Aveley Love Lane, Aveley Ship Lane, Lakeside Tesco, West Thurrock Way. Frequency would be increased to once an hour or once every thirty minutes but would continue to operate Monday to Saturday except the shopping hours part would be removed and it would operate throughout the day. The route would be slightly rerouted to follow the 370 as far as Tamarisk Road before going onto Tamarisk Road and then serving Ockendon Station that way instead of the current way via West Road.
348: New route introduced partially replacing former LLSA route 348 that ran between Romford and Chadwell St Mary. The route would run between Romford Market and Lakeside Bus Station and would have its March 1998 varient of the route before the route was diverted via Oldchurch Road. The route would go: Romford Market - South Street - Roneo Corner - Hornchurch Road - Hornchurch Town Centre - Upminster Road - St Mary's Lane - Upminster Station and then follow the improved 347 to Lakeside. Some journeys would also be extended via Chafford Hundred during schooldays to Thurrock College. This would solve the issue of people wanting the 347 to go to Hornchurch on the Upminster Bus Changes.
372: I have a couple of prospects for this route. Either:
1. Renumber the current 372 as 324, and renumber the current 324 as 372 due to historical context in both areas and that the current 324 replaced mobility route 972 so 372 fits better, and the 324 originally existed as the Hornchurch-Lakeside route. The route would be extended from Hornchurch to Romford Market via Emerson Park and Gidea Park, and the 165 would either be rerouted via Hornchurch Road to Romford like it was pre-2001 or be withdrawn between Romford and Hornchurch. Some journeys would also be extended via Chafford Hundred during schooldays to Thurrock College.
2. Split the 372 into two new routes: 323 & 324.
Route 323 will run between Hornchurch Town Centre and Belhus, Derwent Parade via Abbs Cross, Elm Park, South Hornchurch, Rainham, Wennington, Aveley, Aveley Usk Road and Belhus. This would give a better connection to both routes 347 & 348 and aid areas that haven't had a London bus route since the late 1990s to early 2000s. An occasional journey would be extended to Romford Market daily and one to Ockendon Station too. The current 323 would be given a new route number.
Route 324 will run between Romford Market and Lakeside via Gidea Park, Emerson Park, Hornchurch, Abbs Cross, Elm Park, South Hornchurch, Rainham, Wennington and Purfleet Uplands Estate. This would better connect the residents of all areas, especially Purfleet, which has not had a London bus service since October 1998 when the 324 was re-routed via Aveley. Some journeys would also be extended via Chafford Hundred during schooldays to Thurrock College. The current 324 would be renumbered 372 due to historical reasons.
373: New route introduced replacing former Arriva commercial route 373 between Romford and Lakeside. The route would go: Romford, Mercury Gardens - Main Road - Gidea Park Station - Slewins Lane - Hornchurch Town Centre - Upminster Road - Upminster Station - Corbets Tey Road - Harwood Hall Lane - Aveley Road - Romford Road - Mill Road - Stifford Road - Foyle Drive - Darenth Lane - Daiglen Drive - Stifford Road and then rejoin the 370 to Lakeside. I would reroute the route via Main Road and Gidea Park Station to make it so the 370 & 373 aren't repetitive and have a unique road between Hornchurch and Romford. If the section between Romford and Hornchurch is not possible, I would simply withdraw the route between Romford and Hornchurch, Town Centre and let it run as such.
375: I have many plans for this route, but I don't have any real plans of extending the route back to Harlow, like it's predecessor, the 500, for obvious reasons.
The route would either: 1. Be extended from Passingford Bridge to Ongar, High Street via Abridge, Theydon Bois, Epping High Street, Epping Station, Coopersale, North Weald and Ongar Station because if the Central line goes as far as Epping why can't a London bus service go there as well for easy access to the city as well to the Epping to Ongar railway. 2. Be extended from Passingford Bridge to Epping Station via Stapleford Tawney, Ongar High Street, Ongar Station, North Weald and Coopersale because if the Central line goes as far as Epping why can't a London bus service go there as well for easy access to the city as well to the Epping to Ongar railway.
I also propose the East London Transit scheme to be withdrawn and the EL1, EL2 and EL3 to be renumbered to their original routes. EL1 would become the 369 again. EL2 would become a new route number because the route was introduced after East London Transit was created. EL3 would become the 387 again.
510: Reintroduction of former Capital Citybus route 510. The route would operate in a similar fashion to how it was before withdrawal between Marks Gate and Lakeside except the route would operate Monday-Saturday shopping hours instead of just two journeys on a Saturday.
648: This route would be reintroduced, however would be extended from Cranham Moor Lane to Thurrock College via the 348.
545: This would a temporary route introduced when the 323 and 324 (if renumbered from 372) cannot serve Wennington due to Southall Bridge closure, maintenance works or any other reason. The route would run between Rainham, Eastwood Drive and Wennington, The Green via Rainham War Memorial - Rainham Tesco - Upminster Road South - New Road - Wennington Road - East Hall Lane and then back. If the routes cannot serve Wennington for a couple of days, then the route would operate daily. If it was for a long fixed period (longer than a month), the route would operate during daily shopping hours.
These are just some of my changes for the bus network, but I think they would help out the surrounding areas, especially Essex which has been rapidly declining since the withdrawal of commercial routes that went to London.
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Post by abellion on Apr 14, 2024 5:15:35 GMT
Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas The 432 extension to Elmers End looks quite interesting but traffic often prevalent at the Elmers End/Croydon Road Junction may hinder this from occurring. I wonder if the 358 could be rerouted via Elmers End Road, given that the 194 parallels it between Eden Park & Penge. I wonder if the 162 & 227 could also swap routings between Beckenham & Bromley so that the 227 could be decked. The 358 is incredibly well used so I think it shouldn’t be altered in any way, I’m not too sure about the 162/227 however.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 14, 2024 5:56:11 GMT
Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas The 432 extension to Elmers End looks quite interesting but traffic often prevalent at the Elmers End/Croydon Road Junction may hinder this from occurring. I wonder if the 358 could be rerouted via Elmers End Road, given that the 194 parallels it between Eden Park & Penge. I wonder if the 162 & 227 could also swap routings between Beckenham & Bromley so that the 227 could be decked. I think rerouting the 358 via Elmers End Road is a good call but I wouldn't agree with swapping the 162 and 227 rerouting.
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Post by bk10mfe on Apr 14, 2024 7:17:18 GMT
The 432 extension to Elmers End looks quite interesting but traffic often prevalent at the Elmers End/Croydon Road Junction may hinder this from occurring. I wonder if the 358 could be rerouted via Elmers End Road, given that the 194 parallels it between Eden Park & Penge. I wonder if the 162 & 227 could also swap routings between Beckenham & Bromley so that the 227 could be decked. I think rerouting the 358 via Elmers End Road is a good call but I wouldn't agree with swapping the 162 and 227 rerouting. What’s the reason you don’t want the 162/227 routings swapped? Not many links are really broken & the 227 loads quite well along its route & would benefit from being decked. This change would work well with the 358 rerouting because the 227 would need to take on more people who use the 358 to get to Beckenham/Penge. I wouldn’t implement any of these changes until after the ongoing roadworks on Hayes Lane are complete.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 14, 2024 8:31:59 GMT
I think rerouting the 358 via Elmers End Road is a good call but I wouldn't agree with swapping the 162 and 227 rerouting. What’s the reason you don’t want the 162/227 routings swapped? Not many links are really broken & the 227 loads quite well along its route & would benefit from being decked. This change would work well with the 358 rerouting because the 227 would need to take on more people who use the 358 to get to Beckenham/Penge. I wouldn’t implement any of these changes until after the ongoing roadworks on Hayes Lane are complete. The frequency difference mainly, the Shortlands section is a lot busier than the Park Langley section. I agree about the 358 though, it's a waste of resources the 194 and 358 both doing the same thing between Eden Park and Penge as they do at the moment.
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Post by wirewiper on Apr 14, 2024 8:50:52 GMT
I think rerouting the 358 via Elmers End Road is a good call but I wouldn't agree with swapping the 162 and 227 rerouting. What’s the reason you don’t want the 162/227 routings swapped? Not many links are really broken & the 227 loads quite well along its route & would benefit from being decked. This change would work well with the 358 rerouting because the 227 would need to take on more people who use the 358 to get to Beckenham/Penge. I wouldn’t implement any of these changes until after the ongoing roadworks on Hayes Lane are complete. The 227 runs at twice the frequency of the 162, and with higher-capacity vehicles. The 162 would not cope between Beckenham and Bromley if it replaced the 227.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 14, 2024 12:15:50 GMT
Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas The 432 extension to Elmers End looks quite interesting but traffic often prevalent at the Elmers End/Croydon Road Junction may hinder this from occurring. I wonder if the 358 could be rerouted via Elmers End Road, given that the 194 parallels it between Eden Park & Penge. I wonder if the 162 & 227 could also swap routings between Beckenham & Bromley so that the 227 could be decked. The 432 could cope with that extension even with traffic build up at that junction, really should have been implemented years ago. Swapping the 162 & 227 would be a poor move - the 227 is the most used link between Palace and Bromley, takes the most direct routing & has a much higher frequency. This change would break several links just to deck one route
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Post by ucm131 on Apr 14, 2024 14:09:38 GMT
heres some: 415- Old Kent Road-Canada Water via bermondsey and surrey quays 432- Anerley- Bromley North taking the same route the N3 times and maybe partially replacing the 227 133- Holborn - Tottenham Court Road Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas I actually thought of 249 being extended from Anerley to Elmers End instead of 432, to link Elmers End into northern line as well as Streatham High Street with only the basis of a short 1 mile extension. However, as I am not a south-east Local, I am not sure about whether the capacity of the 249's current demand can support the extension.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 14, 2024 16:32:20 GMT
Or the 432 could be extended down Elmers End Road to Elmers End, giving a direct bus to Crystal Palace and Anerley to those areas I actually thought of 249 being extended from Anerley to Elmers End instead of 432, to link Elmers End into northern line as well as Streatham High Street with only the basis of a short 1 mile extension. However, as I am not a south-east Local, I am not sure about whether the capacity of the 249's current demand can support the extension. The 432 would link into the Victoria Line at Brixton & the 249 only serves the Tesco & Aldi in Streatham and misses the main shopping area. Besides, Elmers End has a big Tesco of its own and I imagine people in Elmers End won’t travel to Streatham for shopping when Beckenham is nearby & Bromley provides a bigger and better shopping experience via the 358
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