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Post by sid on Aug 14, 2018 10:54:50 GMT
Yes the 353 and 412 are unfortunate that they need DDs yet their useage is low make it hard to justify anything higher now then every 20 mins. In those areas care ownership is probably the main culprit from lack of useage. The problem with that is those who use either route will now face longer waits and people will vote with their feet especially as they run in areas of high car usage leading to more congestion & even less patronage. Then, people will turn round and say they carry fresh air and ask for them to be withdrawn without replacement which would be a great example of how to destroy a route. That's the situation now, both routes largely carry fresh air. I don't think anybody is suggesting they should be withdrawn without replacement but 3bph is still quite generous. The only other option is smaller buses at a higher frequency.
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 14, 2018 11:29:00 GMT
I would say it's the lengthening of journey time that has turned people off buses. I have to admit I use the train mroe now if I can. Exactly, the rail network in and around London still seems as busy as ever but I think buses have now got the reputation of being slow things that are generally best avoided if you want to get anywhere quickly. I wouldn't go as far as saying that, buses in London can still be rapid and even the quickest mode of transport depending on the time of day, area and the journey itself. However, congestion and bus priority are still key factors that need to be addressed in order to increase bus usage and revert to its former glory. This can easily be done, it's just a matter of actually investing time, effort and money into it as London's bus network most certainly deserves it. Although it has been arguably compromised, London's bus network is still and always will be wonderful and certainly deserves to be at the top of the transportation list, it goes without saying really.
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Post by sid on Aug 14, 2018 11:44:19 GMT
Exactly, the rail network in and around London still seems as busy as ever but I think buses have now got the reputation of being slow things that are generally best avoided if you want to get anywhere quickly. I wouldn't go as far as saying that, buses in London can still be rapid and even the quickest mode of transport depending on the time of day, area and the journey itself. However, congestion and bus priority are still key factors that need to be addressed in order to increase bus usage and revert to its former glory. This can easily be done, it's just a matter of actually investing time, effort and money into it as London's bus network most certainly deserves it. Although it has been arguably compromised, London's bus network is still and always will be wonderful and certainly deserves to be at the top of the transportation list, it goes without saying really. Whilst traffic congestion is always an issue the biggest problem is too much running time, there is not much point investing in bus priority measures if buses are then going to stop further down the road and lose what time has been saved. I don't know what you mean about being top of the transportation list? Clearly the tube is for most people.
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Post by rj131 on Aug 14, 2018 12:08:04 GMT
I wouldn't go as far as saying that, buses in London can still be rapid and even the quickest mode of transport depending on the time of day, area and the journey itself. However, congestion and bus priority are still key factors that need to be addressed in order to increase bus usage and revert to its former glory. This can easily be done, it's just a matter of actually investing time, effort and money into it as London's bus network most certainly deserves it. Although it has been arguably compromised, London's bus network is still and always will be wonderful and certainly deserves to be at the top of the transportation list, it goes without saying really. Whilst traffic congestion is always an issue the biggest problem is too much running time, there is not much point investing in bus priority measures if buses are then going to stop further down the road and lose what time has been saved. I don't know what you mean about being top of the transportation list? Clearly the tube is for most people. Buses are still the most used transport mode in London the tube probably is for most people, but they usually have to use the bus to get to it as well. A lot of people do live within walking distance of the tube, but most don’t and unless you want to pay extortionate NCP prices it’s difficult to drive to as well
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Post by ronnie on Aug 14, 2018 12:17:29 GMT
Beat me to it! There are quite a lot of long distance trips that are doable on 2 or 3 buses if you plan appropriately. I can do E17 to Ruislip on 3 buses - 34, 251, 114 - which is pretty decent if something of a drag (esp the 114). It’s odd to think you can get from Brentwood to Slough for just £4.50: 498, 86, 25, 94, 237, 81. God knows how long that would take, if you could do it in a day!! I’m trying to rack my brains so see if it can be done with less changes, has to start and end with 498 and 81 though I tried doing this on another thread - an east to west (or vice versa) journey by bus only crossing the M25 at both ends. 6 buses is a minimum requirement if you exclude express routes (alternative is 498-86-25-10-H91-81, 370-86-25-10-H91-81). Using express buses, you can do in 5 (96-53-211-H91-81) although you might need to cross the road once
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Post by sid on Aug 14, 2018 12:23:11 GMT
Whilst traffic congestion is always an issue the biggest problem is too much running time, there is not much point investing in bus priority measures if buses are then going to stop further down the road and lose what time has been saved. I don't know what you mean about being top of the transportation list? Clearly the tube is for most people. Buses are still the most used transport mode in London the tube probably is for most people, but they usually have to use the bus to get to it as well. A lot of people do live within walking distance of the tube, but most don’t and unless you want to pay extortionate NCP prices it’s difficult to drive to as well Indeed, not many tube stations in south east London.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 14, 2018 13:45:38 GMT
What’s the longest distance can do using two day buses (maybe excluding express routes and night routes?). I reckon 25-113 / 221-123 would be prime candidates. Maybe also 149 / 279 or 48 / 20? 149 and 47 seems like a long journey to me Not as long as a solo journey on the 47 used to be - Farnborough to Stamford Hill, but there might be a slight wait for a through bus at times :like almost eighteen hours.
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Post by redbus on Aug 14, 2018 13:50:12 GMT
Whilst traffic congestion is always an issue the biggest problem is too much running time, there is not much point investing in bus priority measures if buses are then going to stop further down the road and lose what time has been saved. I don't know what you mean about being top of the transportation list? Clearly the tube is for most people. Buses are still the most used transport mode in London the tube probably is for most people, but they usually have to use the bus to get to it as well. A lot of people do live within walking distance of the tube, but most don’t and unless you want to pay extortionate NCP prices it’s difficult to drive to as well Buses are still the most used transport mode, but that highlights the need to look after the bus service so as to keep it that way
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Post by redbus on Aug 14, 2018 13:54:58 GMT
At sight this might not seem so bad. But when you arrive at a stop and see a 10 minute wait displayed instead of a 5 minute one you are far more likely to not bother waiting and use alternative modes of transport such as Uber which often arrives in a matter of minutes. This leads to usage of the route falling even further. Imo though 15 down to 20 isn’t *that* noticeable, when you think about it 5 minutes isn’t much. 20 down to 30 however is a much bigger gulf. Sorry, I disagree completely. Once you go beyond 10 minute intervals and it becomes noticeable. My daytime service is 8 minutes, my Sunday service 12 minutes. That's less difference than between 15 and 20 minutes, yet the difference in waiting feels vast. Going beyond 12 minutes and you really notice it, for example on the 268 going from 12 minutes to 15 minutes has made a world of difference to waiting times, or at least that's the way it feels.
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Post by snowman on Aug 14, 2018 14:32:48 GMT
Buses are still the most used transport mode in London the tube probably is for most people, but they usually have to use the bus to get to it as well. A lot of people do live within walking distance of the tube, but most don’t and unless you want to pay extortionate NCP prices it’s difficult to drive to as well Buses are still the most used transport mode, but that highlights the need to look after the bus service so as to keep it that way Buses might be the most used by journey count, but not by journey distance per passenger. More realistic to use passenger miles for mode comparisons The problem with bus data is virtually 100% of journeys also involve walking (to/from bus stop) for part of the journey, so cutting services and making people walk to a further bus stop often does not change the total journey count.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 14, 2018 14:42:17 GMT
Imo though 15 down to 20 isn’t *that* noticeable, when you think about it 5 minutes isn’t much. 20 down to 30 however is a much bigger gulf. Sorry, I disagree completely. Once you go beyond 10 minute intervals and it becomes noticeable. My daytime service is 8 minutes, my Sunday service 12 minutes. That's less difference than between 15 and 20 minutes, yet the difference in waiting feels vast. Going beyond 12 minutes and you really notice it, for example on the 268 going from 12 minutes to 15 minutes has made a world of difference to waiting times, or at least that's the way it feels. Well exactly. With my luck (referring to the 412) I'd end up just missing one and having a 19 minute wait. Hence my preference for doing it while it's just at an acceptable headway. On my last jaunt in S London I got the timings of tram connections to New Addington wrong meaning a nigh on 25 min wait for the 464. Then I ended up with a 20+ min wait for both the 359 and 434. That's over an hour wasted - I was not impressed. Once you get to lowish headways you end up with all sorts of problems in that to make connections to have to have larger interchange allowances which then ripples back all the way through the preceding connections. It's one reason why I am relatively unfamiliar with a lot of rail services in SE London - far too many are on 30 minute headways because the service is split into stoppers and semi-fasts with the latter missing important interchanges like New Cross or New Cross Gate or Lewisham. This is what comes with the obsession of commuters only ever wanting "fast" trains to their specific terminal (the curse of S London's rail service IMO) and to hell with anyone who might want a decent stopping frequency. "Oh you can't have that because we have all these people who must have fast trains between somewhere in Kent and London and the slow local trains just have to make do". And even when they do try to run trains more frequently you end up with ridiculous 10/20 or 12/18 headways rather a clockface 15. Grumble grumble.
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Post by John tuthill on Aug 14, 2018 14:44:52 GMT
149 and 47 seems like a long journey to me Not as long as a solo journey on the 47 used to be - Farnborough to Stamford Hill, but there might be a slight wait for a through bus at times :like almost eighteen hours. Check out the timetable attached(Ian's Bus Stop page) Two hours near enough Attachment Deleted
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Post by sid on Aug 14, 2018 14:55:53 GMT
Sorry, I disagree completely. Once you go beyond 10 minute intervals and it becomes noticeable. My daytime service is 8 minutes, my Sunday service 12 minutes. That's less difference than between 15 and 20 minutes, yet the difference in waiting feels vast. Going beyond 12 minutes and you really notice it, for example on the 268 going from 12 minutes to 15 minutes has made a world of difference to waiting times, or at least that's the way it feels. Well exactly. With my luck (referring to the 412) I'd end up just missing one and having a 19 minute wait. Hence my preference for doing it while it's just at an acceptable headway. On my last jaunt in S London I got the timings of tram connections to New Addington wrong meaning a nigh on 25 min wait for the 464. Then I ended up with a 20+ min wait for both the 359 and 434. That's over an hour wasted - I was not impressed. Once you get to lowish headways you end up with all sorts of problems in that to make connections to have to have larger interchange allowances which then ripples back all the way through the preceding connections. It's one reason why I am relatively unfamiliar with a lot of rail services in SE London - far too many are on 30 minute headways because the service is split into stoppers and semi-fasts with the latter missing important interchanges like New Cross or New Cross Gate or Lewisham. This is what comes with the obsession of commuters only ever wanting "fast" trains to their specific terminal (the curse of S London's rail service IMO) and to hell with anyone who might want a decent stopping frequency. "Oh you can't have that because we have all these people who must have fast trains between somewhere in Kent and London and the slow local trains just have to make do". And even when they do try to run trains more frequently you end up with ridiculous 10/20 or 12/18 headways rather a clockface 15. Grumble grumble. You might want to avoid routes like the 146, R8 and the 166 to Epsom which are hourly or less and the railway network is probably the best that can be achieved on a complex network with all sorts of conflicting needs, it's just not possible to please everybody.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 14, 2018 16:17:45 GMT
Not as long as a solo journey on the 47 used to be - Farnborough to Stamford Hill, but there might be a slight wait for a through bus at times :like almost eighteen hours. Check out the timetable attached(Ian's Bus Stop page) Two hours near enough I over-estimated the service then! That timetable shows one through journey in each direction per day. so 24 hours to wait. No flat fares then, either. Nobody at LT noticed that Farnborough becomes Farningham in one direction too. You could only get to Finsbury Square from the latter!!
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Post by snowman on Aug 15, 2018 6:06:40 GMT
Yes, but the interesting part is that is almost a 'holding document', as an updated bus changes document is due next week. To quote TfL :-
'As a number of changes due to be introduced in early September 2018 are still being finalised, an updated edition of this document, containing more changes, will be published on 21 August 2018.'
Maybe I am overthinking this, but it seems to me that if it is known in advance that an update will be published next Tuesday evening then something is afoot that is awaiting sign off from someone who is unavailable this week. It makes me wonder what happens to delegations of authority during holidays, or what panic there will be if the proposals don’t get signed off, and a plan B occurs. On a wider thought, if can’t even get changes for next 4 weeks agreed and published what hope is there that tender results will be on time (could it be the 9 and N9 which end 31 Aug)
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