|
Post by snowman on Mar 3, 2015 22:04:42 GMT
This is such a big change that I agree with others that it's not a whim but part of a big plan.
I'm guessing the VHs will either end up replacing the VLPs, VLEs and VEs ( possibly allowing the VLEs and VEs to Tolworth) but I can't get my head around potential compensation, it doesn't make sense that Metroline increase their PVR at expense of LS so I wonder if one of the remaining routes will be novated to LS Alternatively might give them something out to tender eg 91 or 297 ( having asked Metroline to withdraw bid in exchange)
Do tend to think it is a done deal though and consultation is just to tick a few boxes
|
|
|
Post by rmz19 on Mar 3, 2015 23:01:52 GMT
I've known about this for quite a while (albeit the version I heard was the 139 being renumbered 13, 139N to be renumbered N13 as well), and I have a massive feeling that TfL will go ahead no matter what. At this rate, RATP set to lose quite a lot and Metroline will gain a tad. The 10 afaik was withdrawn after it dwindled down and it was already single deck by when it was withdrawn! At this rate, this just seems to be a ploy of removing more buses off Oxford Street, forcing more crowding on the 82 (which can get very busy when a 13 takes some time to arrive) and at the same time, converting the 139 to LT. The forced paying of two fares for anyone going to the West End from the 189 Brent Cross and the extended journey times for West End-Golders Green (by bus) journey times will not be liked. TfL may have some passenger figures that may say that people on the 13 may like longer journey times(!) (or flow means that the Northern line exists, these changes may warrant some to move to the already overcrowded Northern line!). Watch the amount of confusion when this change takes place all around NW London, and tourists within London. Technically 139 barely serves Aldwych, so that's slightly less worrying(!) Looking at the 292 contract, this change would probably be by December this year at this rate. Absolutely, the 10 had dwindled to a shaddow of its former self in an era when passenger numbers were generally falling. The 13 has healthy passenger numbers as it is and hasnt carried on for 80+ years for no reason......why not even extend it to its old terminus of London Bridge and let it help out with the problems there ;-) Seriously though, the only reason for this is to A. Continue the pointless chopping of buses from Oxford Street (wont/hasnt made a blind bit of difference to anything unless you ban those *IMO dangerous* cycle-taxi's and taxi's) and B. to potentially get LT's on to the 139 (why not just stick them on routes that can take them). Possibly one of the most ridiculous proposals of recent times, and I do not believe in the slighted that this is proposed because of "changing travel patterns" I agree with your point on chopping bus routes along Oxford Street, queues of Taxis and those silly Cycle-Taxi things are what aggrevate congestion along Oxford Street. Reducing and removing these would actually make a difference IMO. But if TFL intend to convert the 139 to LTs they could've converted the 13 instead of all the hassle of these proposals.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 3, 2015 23:06:24 GMT
Right I've done a section by section analysis of the current and future service levels. Despite TfL's claims that all the details are in the consultation document there are some gaps. There is no confirmation about the 189's frequencies other than at night nor is there confirmation of the 82's evening frequencies. I've had to assume they are the same as now. There are some hefty reductions in some places and reductions to night bus services. The N189 goes from x20 to x30 nightly. The N13 goes from x15 at weekends to zero with only 2 bph on the N82 and 2 on the N139. The Finchley Road loses 2 bph at night at weekends. And now for some sections Strand to Oxford Circus - joint frequency on 13/139 halved in future Oxford Circus to Selfridges - down from 24.5bph in the peaks to 17.5bph Selfridges to Baker St - from 40.5 bph to 36.5bph in the peaks, 35.5bph to 30.5bph Sat daytimes, 23bph to 20bph on Sundays Baker St - Finchley Rd - Fortune Green Road - from 24 bph to 20bph in the peaks, 20.5 bph to 15 bph on Sats daytimes Fortune Green Road - Golders Green - from 25.5bph to 17.5bph in the peaks, from 22 bph to 15 bph on Sats daytimes, from 15 bph to 10 bph Sun daytimes Abbey Road corridor sees no peak or daytime changes but a night time cut. Fortune Green Road to Edgware sees a daily frequency improvement - about the only bit of this scheme that does (plus West Hampstead to Golders Green). I am not impressed and I don't think the scheme will be sufficiently robust in terms of capacity. The night bus reductions are quite concerning but are perhaps a sign of what is to come with the night tube - so much for no cuts below weekday frequencies.
|
|
|
Post by maximus23 on Mar 3, 2015 23:24:01 GMT
I don't know why the 113 and 189 are swapping Termini. Nothing seems to be wrong with the termini of either route They are swapping so that there is still a link between Finchley road and Oxford circus whereas the 139 already provides a link between abbey road and Oxford circus.
|
|
|
Post by maximus23 on Mar 3, 2015 23:26:40 GMT
Didn't the contract of route 13 begin in mid-2013? Wouldn't these route changes have to be delayed to mid-2018 at the earliest? The OCD in me is not going to like the gap in route numbers so early on in the list! How about renumbering 113 to 13?
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Mar 3, 2015 23:27:06 GMT
Not really my patch, others of you are in a much better position to comment than I am, but the traditionalist in me is very sad to see the demise of such a historic service as the 13
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Mar 3, 2015 23:32:56 GMT
Personally, the only part of the scheme I liked was the 82 going to 24 hour operation. The rest seems detrimental to anyone who uses the routes. The 113 & 189 terminus swaps in Central London make no sense to me - what do these seriously achieve?
The 139 looks like it's bucked the recent trend of having Central London portions of it's routing curtailed and gains an extension to Golders Green though I fear this could be a hindrance to reliability elsewhere along the route.
I can see why the 13 has been cut but I think's it's a massive own goal TBH. Yes, I've had daytime & early evening journeys from Golders Green to Oxford Street where even a Solo would of been ideal but it's a not a route that's loads light. Could it not have dropped to a every 10 minute frequency instead rather than just a full swipe withdrawal?
|
|
|
Post by maximus23 on Mar 3, 2015 23:33:58 GMT
If this is to go ahead, I think that to deal with the increase in passenger numbers the 113 will need newer buses. Last time I went on one can't remember having a nice ride.
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Mar 3, 2015 23:40:01 GMT
If this is to go ahead, I think that to deal with the increase in passenger numbers the 113 will need newer buses. You've a case there, especially as you say that there could be an increase in passengers using the 113. TfL were suppose to be looking at introducing longer buses but so far, this seems to be restricted to single deck routes only.
|
|
|
Post by Volvo on Mar 3, 2015 23:40:19 GMT
Don't be fooled that this is a "consultation" It'll happen. This is what I have learned about so called consultations.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2015 23:50:11 GMT
I have no issue with whole scale changes. In fact I welcome creative thinking.... But this has got number 5 / 87 and 174 / 374 written all over it.
What will happen is that despite opposition TfL will steam roll ahead.
A few years down the line in true 5/87, 174/374 style TfL will be forced to acknowledge the crush loadings. There'll be lots of "we're reviewing the capacity", then some roadside loadings monitoring.
The initial steps will be small remedial ideas, an extra few peak trips here and there, timetable changes to address "punctuality" etc etc.
Eventually they'll talk about extending something to cover up the mess made (a few years down the line of course). Whether any extensions come to fruition will be another story, just like the 5 and 238 saga.
Alas, history is set to repeat itself!
|
|
|
Post by rmz19 on Mar 3, 2015 23:54:46 GMT
The N13 goes from x15 at weekends to zero with only 2 bph on the N82 and 2 on the N139. The Finchley Road loses 2 bph at night at weekends. And now for some sections Strand to Oxford Circus - joint frequency on 13/139 halved in future Oxford Circus to Selfridges - down from 24.5bph in the peaks to 17.5bph Selfridges to Baker St - from 40.5 bph to 36.5bph in the peaks, 35.5bph to 30.5bph Sat daytimes, 23bph to 20bph on Sundays Baker St - Finchley Rd - Fortune Green Road - from 24 bph to 20bph in the peaks, 20.5 bph to 15 bph on Sats daytimes Fortune Green Road - Golders Green - from 25.5bph to 17.5bph in the peaks, from 22 bph to 15 bph on Sats daytimes, from 15 bph to 10 bph Sun daytimes Are some of these figures with the current 113 frequency?. I'm pretty sure the 113 will gain a frequency increase as part of the scheme, it certainly should do as it will pick up former 13 users northbound (towards Fortune Green) between Oxford Circus and Bond Street, and southbound (towards Oxford Circus) between Fortune Green and Baker Street, on top of the current 113 users.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 0:11:22 GMT
Would this not be a better solution?
13 removed 82 NF - Oxo (with peak extras operating Golders Green to Oxo to compensate for the loss of the 13). Becomes 24-hour replacing N13 too. 113 Edgware to Victoria with frequency increases (so takes over the 82 section via Marble Arch) 139 no change 189 if you really want to reduce buses on oxford street then divert to Marble Arch, otherwise no change
|
|
|
Post by LX09FBJ on Mar 4, 2015 0:14:25 GMT
A rather good idea can actually be found here suggesting the following: The diverting of the 13 and/or 139 via Regents Park would provide a link between Regents Park and Finchley Road and/or Abbey Road (and Aldwych or Waterloo) which would've created some more useful links as well as reducing the number of buses along Oxford Street. The idea of banning taxis and tuk-tuks is also a good idea, as Oxford Street is already congested enough without them. If TfL just want to waste our money with even more LTs then why not just put them on the 13 and 82 instead of wrecking the network. Surely history has taught us that 'radical network changes' rarely work? In my honest opinion, the 13 should also be extended eastbound too, to London Bridge, connecting Charring Cross, Cannon Street and London Bridge with one bus.
|
|
|
Post by sid on Mar 4, 2015 0:18:14 GMT
Personally, the only part of the scheme I liked was the 82 going to 24 hour operation. The rest seems detrimental to anyone who uses the routes. The 113 & 189 terminus swaps in Central London make no sense to me - what do these seriously achieve? The 139 looks like it's bucked the recent trend of having Central London portions of it's routing curtailed and gains an extension to Golders Green though I fear this could be a hindrance to reliability elsewhere along the route. I can see why the 13 has been cut but I think's it's a massive own goal TBH. Yes, I've had daytime & early evening journeys from Golders Green to Oxford Street where even a Solo would of been ideal but it's a not a route that's loads light. Could it not have dropped to a every 10 minute frequency instead rather than just a full swipe withdrawal? The 113/189 swapping terminus is to maintain a link from Oxford Circus to Finchley Road although I don't agree with any of it. Much the same could be achieved by withdrawing the 139 and extending the 13 to Waterloo and the 74 to West Hampstead.
|
|