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Post by paulsw2 on Jan 16, 2016 2:47:16 GMT
Wow, I actually never knew this - you learn something everyday. Yes - the Piccadilly Line was my bete noir. As it runs east - west for a long section it was particularly prone to problems. The only short term solution was staff on the platform to give the all clear. In the end a load of money had to be spent to *improve* matters but you can never solve it entirely if you have mirrors, monitors and cameras. Train mounted CCTV cameras on each car, like some TOC trains have, may help matters as images are relayed directly into the train cab but I'm not sure LU has any trains with that capabilty. Some stocks have in cab monitors but the image usually comes from platform cameras. Must check what happens with S Stock. As a train op on the District Line we also have problems with the sun at times and I concur with Snoggle regarding this. Our S stock incab monitors receive their images from platform mounted cameras
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 16, 2016 9:37:40 GMT
*These were featured on a BBC London report where SE services were disrupted to the "wrong type of sunshine". I may give commuters stick for over-complaining, but this excuse is frankly pathetic. Well I am afraid you don't understand the issue and it is NOT pathetic. I had to deal with this for months every year when I worked at LU. The simple explanation is that the sun's position can completely "white out" camera lens, mirrors and monitors. This means the driver is unable to see the full platform / train interface and cannot safely close the doors. You can also get situations where the sun creates very dark shadows on platforms and people wearing dark clothing can disappear from view. I've actually seen this happen. Sometimes it does not matter what you do in terms of changing camera lens, providing hoods over mirrors etc there is still a time when the sun simply gets in the way. The sun's position at any time in daylight is changing quite rapidly at the moment as days get longer. We get the reverse during Autumn but the poor weather and cloud for weeks meant sunlight issues were lower this year. Would you prefer that people were stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths? I get very annoyed when people go "ha ha morons morons wrong type of whatever" to create cheap headlines when the reality is about keeping the public safe. Platforms 1 and 3 on winter mornings at Lewisham have always been notorious for this : it just seems to have become public this year.
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Post by LX09FBJ on Jan 16, 2016 13:17:06 GMT
*These were featured on a BBC London report where SE services were disrupted to the "wrong type of sunshine". I may give commuters stick for over-complaining, but this excuse is frankly pathetic. Well I am afraid you don't understand the issue and it is NOT pathetic. I had to deal with this for months every year when I worked at LU. The simple explanation is that the sun's position can completely "white out" camera lens, mirrors and monitors. This means the driver is unable to see the full platform / train interface and cannot safely close the doors. You can also get situations where the sun creates very dark shadows on platforms and people wearing dark clothing can disappear from view. I've actually seen this happen. Sometimes it does not matter what you do in terms of changing camera lens, providing hoods over mirrors etc there is still a time when the sun simply gets in the way. The sun's position at any time in daylight is changing quite rapidly at the moment as days get longer. We get the reverse during Autumn but the poor weather and cloud for weeks meant sunlight issues were lower this year. Would you prefer that people were stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths? I get very annoyed when people go "ha ha morons morons wrong type of whatever" to create cheap headlines when the reality is about keeping the public safe. Wasn't aware of the impact that the sun could have. Would indeed rather have a safer journey rather than a quicker one. Apologies for my naïvety.
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Post by lonmark on Jan 18, 2016 18:04:19 GMT
Look like more and more people to sign up to get Southeastern lose the rail franchise Newsshopper
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2016 19:56:10 GMT
Look like more and more people to sign up to get Southeastern lose the rail franchise NewsshopperYour link doesn't work. It just comes back to the same page.
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Post by Nathan on Jan 18, 2016 20:06:13 GMT
Look like more and more people to sign up to get Southeastern lose the rail franchise NewsshopperYou forgot to put the link in the [ a ] tag.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2016 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by markyl on Jan 18, 2016 23:14:50 GMT
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Post by Connor on Jan 19, 2016 0:14:25 GMT
Signed by me. All I want are additional limited stop services on the BX line (unrealistic considering Lewisham) and a total interior refurb of the 376s, 465s and 466s. Other than that I really like SE. The 375s and 395s are great, comfortable trains; it's shame the same kind of attention isn't shown to Metro trains.
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Post by Nathan on Jan 19, 2016 7:36:11 GMT
Signed by me. All I want are additional limited stop services on the BX line (unrealistic considering Lewisham) and a total interior refurb of the 376s, 465s and 466s. Other than that I really like SE. The 375s and 395s are great, comfortable trains; it's shame the same kind of attention isn't shown to Metro trains. Southeastern run the worst train service ever. It's worse that Southern and South West Trains put together! The 465s/466s are comfy, I will admit. But the interior could look far better. I'll stick to my 377s/450s/458s thank you And the delays too...they're ridiculous.
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Post by lonmark on Jan 19, 2016 9:15:05 GMT
Oop. Sorry for my mistake of the link. But thank you for the correct one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 19:14:31 GMT
The media always seem to use that same photo of 465181.
I think this nicely demonstrates what kind of chaos can be had on the Southeastern Railway in short order. The documentary gives the impression that in just 5 sequential days - i.e. one working week - BR management deal with:
- Late running track maintenance - A terrorist attack on one of their trains - A bomb scare due to an attack on the Tube - A suicide (one under) - Lots of cancelled trains due to a shortage of staff - In-service train failures - Signal failures and - A broken sleeper outside Charing Cross.
All of which caused delays and cancellations, and made passengers frustrated and even angry, and only one of which was the fault of British Rail.
(A lot of you have probably already seen this episode of Inside Story. But I'd recommend watching it again just to refresh your memory.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 19:58:11 GMT
The media always seem to use that same photo of 465181. I think this nicely demonstrates what kind of chaos can be had on the Southeastern Railway in short order. The documentary gives the impression that in just 5 sequential days - i.e. one working week - BR management deal with: - Late running track maintenance - A terrorist attack on one of their trains - A bomb scare due to an attack on the Tube - A suicide (one under) - Lots of cancelled trains due to a shortage of staff - In-service train failures - Signal failures and - A broken sleeper outside Charing Cross. All of which caused delays and cancellations, and made passengers frustrated and even angry, and only one of which was the fault of British Rail. (A lot of you have probably already seen this episode of Inside Story. But I'd recommend watching it again just to refresh your memory.) I'd say in-service train failures, signal failures and the broken sleeper are all the fault of BR. But the point stands.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 19, 2016 20:16:27 GMT
The media always seem to use that same photo of 465181. I think this nicely demonstrates what kind of chaos can be had on the Southeastern Railway in short order. The documentary gives the impression that in just 5 sequential days - i.e. one working week - BR management deal with: - Late running track maintenance - A terrorist attack on one of their trains - A bomb scare due to an attack on the Tube - A suicide (one under) - Lots of cancelled trains due to a shortage of staff - In-service train failures - Signal failures and - A broken sleeper outside Charing Cross. All of which caused delays and cancellations, and made passengers frustrated and even angry, and only one of which was the fault of British Rail. (A lot of you have probably already seen this episode of Inside Story. But I'd recommend watching it again just to refresh your memory.) I've only watched about the first couple of minutes but what's striking is that BR tried to work a service round the overrunniing engineering works. That doesn't happen these days - the whole thing is blocked. I am not sure that harking back to BR days is really relevant in explaining why South Eastern, a totally different company with different obligations and motivations, is hated as much as it is. In your list of issues I can count 5 items which are BR's responsibility. Bombs and suicides are in the "sh*t happens" category that people can't really prevent if the perpetrators are determined enough. Obviously all the things you list can and do still happen but are split between the TOC, Network Rail and "mad people doing daft stuff". The way incidents are handled is different these days, the pressures are different and the level of demand for train services is unlike anything BR had to cope with. That South Eastern haven't had any extra trains in years is a crucial issue where responsibility lies somewhere between the TOC and the DfT. I believe South Eastern have asked for more on several occasions but were rebuffed each time although something may have been agreed recently but the London Bridge works prevent more service being run at the moment plus the trains aren't available for cascade yet. I read so many blogs and comments with simplistic easy answers to what are immensely complicated issues affecting the railway. The railway will always have to deal with some level of asset failure, staffing issues and the crazy general public. Making a decent fist of handling those issues shouldn't be overly difficult really but too many companies struggle and I suspect the lack of continuity between companies managing each franchise causes all sorts of issues for the staff and also prevents proper staff development and progression. If the bosses change every few years then you never get anywhere - there's no time to build working relationships that will last and which can be depended upon when a crisis comes. Above all that you've got the big questions about money, system capacity, what is the railway supposed to do, proper planning etc etc. The politicians can't do that properly which means the DfT is dysfunctional and the Treasury simply doesn't care. I'm not even convinced that a transfer to TfL can "solve" (whatever that means) the problems in South London as so much money will be needed and the work to unblock the pinchpoints, lengthen platforms and buy new trains and signals would take 10-15 years by which time you've got another set of problems to the ones you spent a decade trying to fix. Witness the 5 car Overground trains being full up after about a fortnight. To TfL's credit the works and extra carriages took about 18 months which is commendably quick but they're no further forward in the peaks despite spending £250m. I suspect that when we get an electrified GOBLIN with 4 car trains that it will take about 6 months before the trains are jammed full in the peaks because there will be a surge of suppressed demand that is presently deterred because you can't get on the diesel trains. So that's £115m to give you 6 months' relief and then you add on Barking Riverside (£75m) and it's even worse because thousands try to squash on to 4 car trains every 15 minutes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 23:08:38 GMT
The way I saw it when watching the Inside Story documentary, only the overrunning track maintenance was really British Rail's fault. To me, everything else just seems like the product of the transport network being starved of proper funding, or part of the sh*t happens category. What I thought was relevant about the documentary was that we still have frustrated passengers because of delays, overcrowding, political stigma surrounding quite serious issues like the sunlight at Lewisham, and engineering works. I get the impression that nothing has really changed, and that privatisation has only transferred blame and responsibility to a different party.
Honestly, I always thought that Southeastern was one of the better operators. They're much better than Connex ever was, at least. Then again, I'm not a regular user of the network, unless regular can be defined as occasional usage over my entire life time.
Things that really irk me are like what Oliver Passey put on his petition page. "South Eastern consistently let down their paying customers, cancelling trains strategically so they don't have to pay refunds, whilst making £12.8m in profit." In Old, Dirty and Late, Network SouthEast are accused (by a frustrated passenger) of cancelling trains so their time-keeping statistics look good. A very similar accusation, made 23 years ago. Network SouthEast apparently cancelled trains because they didn't have enough drivers to do the work. Whether Southeastern have the same problem I don't know.
All considered, I just don't think real improvement can be had by running one operator out of town with pitchforks and welcoming another with open arms. It seems like a cycle that repeats itself. South West Trains have been running the network in South West London for ages. I wonder what they're doing so right.
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