|
Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2015 20:08:37 GMT
New route 361- Stagecoach TB- Trident DDs- 20 minute frequency- Bromley South/Ringers Road to Abbey Wood; Via the 162 to Chistlehurst, Camden Park Road, then via Prince Imperial Road, the B263 to Fiveways, New Eltham, Footscray Road, Eltham High Street, Westmount Road, Rochester Way/Welling Way, Welling/Central Avenue, Wickham Street, Lodge Hill, Brampton Road and Knee Hill. An orbital route, linking many areas within SE London, and in particular Southeastern rail stations, Bromley South and Bickley (on the Chatham Main Line), Chistlehurst (on the SE Main Line) New Eltham (on the Sidcup Line), Welling (on the Bexleyheath Line) and Abbey Wood (on the North Kent Line and Crossrail). Trees along Prince Imperial Road and Knee Hill may have to be looked at to allow DDs on the route. The 244 may have to be moved out of it's stand (extended to Erith/ cut back to Thamesmead?) I think Connor has the bones of a decent idea here. Orbital links such as this are few and far between and indeed such journeys simply cannot be made by rail without going massively out of one's way. However I want to suggest a few changes Firstly, the number. A 361 in the Bromley area would suggest parallels with the 261 - instead I would use 361 for a Bromley/North Greenwich link via Grove Park, Lee and Blackheath. As I'm on my phone I don't know/can't be bothered to look as to which numbers are free to suggest an alternative Secondly, the Bromley terminus. You couldn't fit another route on Ringers Road with the 126 and I'm not certain the 126 or this new route could stand in the vicinity of the old 126 stand in Simpsons Road (I no longer go around there and don't know what the situation is with the development there). I would suggest the Crown or, even better, TB itself (since Connor has us running it!). This has the added benefit of more help along Bromley Common and especially another nearly empty bus to cope with the vast numbers of school kids using the buses to get into Bromley from Bishop Justus School Thirdly, the routing to Chislehurst. Routing it via the 162/269 would be pointless unless you take one of those routes away. I would suggest curtailing the 162 at Bromley in order to further extend it at the Beckenham end - maybe to Norwood Junction? Fourthly, Prince Imperial Road doesn't need a service. Chislehurst War Memorial is a far better routing to connect with other services and also gives a handy curtailment point Fifthly, although serving the length of Green Lane is desirable, losing the 162 means Edgebury loses it's service. Since we want to keep deckers on the new route maybe a new local service linking Orpington, Chislehurst, Edgebury, New Eltham and Eltham? I don't know enough about the area north of Eltham to comment although linking to Welling and then Abbey Wood for Crossrail seems desirable. I might suggest an alternative destination could be Woolwich, possibly via QEH I've just ruined Connor's idea, haven't I? Sorry mate! I'm quite enjoying this thread actually - might even contribute a few ideas of my own soon! How about 369 'paul'? I quite like the idea for reasons already mentioned - a very good idea.
|
|
|
Post by sid on Jun 16, 2015 20:21:47 GMT
There's no chance of double deckers on the 162, they don't fit round Edgebury Estate
|
|
|
Post by Connor on Jun 16, 2015 21:14:12 GMT
New route 361- Stagecoach TB- Trident DDs- 20 minute frequency- Bromley South/Ringers Road to Abbey Wood; Via the 162 to Chistlehurst, Camden Park Road, then via Prince Imperial Road, the B263 to Fiveways, New Eltham, Footscray Road, Eltham High Street, Westmount Road, Rochester Way/Welling Way, Welling/Central Avenue, Wickham Street, Lodge Hill, Brampton Road and Knee Hill. An orbital route, linking many areas within SE London, and in particular Southeastern rail stations, Bromley South and Bickley (on the Chatham Main Line), Chistlehurst (on the SE Main Line) New Eltham (on the Sidcup Line), Welling (on the Bexleyheath Line) and Abbey Wood (on the North Kent Line and Crossrail). Trees along Prince Imperial Road and Knee Hill may have to be looked at to allow DDs on the route. The 244 may have to be moved out of it's stand (extended to Erith/ cut back to Thamesmead?) I think Connor has the bones of a decent idea here. Orbital links such as this are few and far between and indeed such journeys simply cannot be made by rail without going massively out of one's way. However I want to suggest a few changes Firstly, the number. A 361 in the Bromley area would suggest parallels with the 261 - instead I would use 361 for a Bromley/North Greenwich link via Grove Park, Lee and Blackheath. As I'm on my phone I don't know/can't be bothered to look as to which numbers are free to suggest an alternative Secondly, the Bromley terminus. You couldn't fit another route on Ringers Road with the 126 and I'm not certain the 126 or this new route could stand in the vicinity of the old 126 stand in Simpsons Road (I no longer go around there and don't know what the situation is with the development there). I would suggest the Crown or, even better, TB itself (since Connor has us running it!). This has the added benefit of more help along Bromley Common and especially another nearly empty bus to cope with the vast numbers of school kids using the buses to get into Bromley from Bishop Justus School Thirdly, the routing to Chislehurst. Routing it via the 162/269 would be pointless unless you take one of those routes away. I would suggest curtailing the 162 at Bromley in order to further extend it at the Beckenham end - maybe to Norwood Junction? Fourthly, Prince Imperial Road doesn't need a service. Chislehurst War Memorial is a far better routing to connect with other services and also gives a handy curtailment point Fifthly, although serving the length of Green Lane is desirable, losing the 162 means Edgebury loses it's service. Since we want to keep deckers on the new route maybe a new local service linking Orpington, Chislehurst, Edgebury, New Eltham and Eltham? I don't know enough about the area north of Eltham to comment although linking to Welling and then Abbey Wood for Crossrail seems desirable. I might suggest an alternative destination could be Woolwich, possibly via QEH I've just ruined Connor's idea, haven't I? Sorry mate! I'm quite enjoying this thread actually - might even contribute a few ideas of my own soon! I don't see the problem with the route number. I think '361' goes quite nicely, seeing as the route would connect with the 61, 161, 261, 461*... *number 461 isn't in use and as I have claimed '361', it could be given to your Bromley to North Greenwich service. Ideally the route would stand at the old Bromley South stand, but I was unsure of whether that would be possible at this moment. The Ringer's Road stand seems quite ample to me, I'd estimate a good 4, possibly 5 buses could stand there at any one time. jay38a Extending the '361' further south than Bromley South would add too much time to what is an already a very long route; a new school route (running from TB of course) may be a better solution to any 'overcrowding' in the Bromley Common area. I think an extension at the northern end of the 162, to Woolwich (direct via South Circular, not serving QEHospital) is more important, the 161 suffers from quite bad overcrowding between Eltham and Woolwich. Would mean cutting back the 162 back to Bromley (North) and extending the shorter 269 to Beckenham Junction, Norwood, wherever... Routing via Prince Imperial Road is purely to cut down journey times (I have been stuck on a 269 several times on the approach to the War Memorial for 15+ minutes). Seeing as the 162 serves the WM, I don't see the need for the 361 to do so. (IMO the patronage at the WM doesn't justify the extra journey time, I could be wrong) The 162 is very overcrowded, appearing as one of the most overcrowded or complained about for that reason in actual TfL reports, so lending that a hand would be great. I have real life experience of this route as a regular; it is especially busy route. In my view, the 162 situ- looks like the 132 all over again (both packed as single deckers) and I think the only solution is the 162 double-decked I agree the 162 should be ''double decked'. I did previously suggest extending the B13 from New Eltham to Chislehurst (at the very least) via the 162 and the 162 could then be routed away from Domonic Drive/Edgebury and double-decked. As a local having an easy way of getting to Welling & Abbey Wood would be great. It shouldn't be this hard YES! Completely agree, having to go into Bexleyheath or Woolwich and changing buses is bonkers given how near ( kind of) the two areas are!
|
|
|
Post by Connor on Aug 5, 2015 17:44:43 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Swanley Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's - Millennium Primary School
- then onto A102 and runs express to Sun-in-the-Sands Roundabout
- Shooter's Hill Road
- Shooters Hill
- Welling Station
- Welling Corner
- Hook Lane/ Westwood Lane
- Blackfen
- Wellington Road/ Willersley Avenue
- Sidcup Station
- Sidcup Police Station (for High St.)
- Queen Mary's Hospital
- then onto A20 and runs express to Critall's Corner Roundabout
- Edgington Way
- North Cray/Ruxley Roundabout
- Maidstone Road
- London Road
- Swanley Town Centre
- Goldsel Road/ Station Approach
- Swanley Station
Sevenoaks Way
- Cray Valley Road/ Lynton Avenue
- Lynmouth Rise/ Furzehill Square
Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray, the 233 between Sidcup and Swanley; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to Swanley. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by routew15 on Aug 5, 2015 18:17:53 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to St Mary Cray Station (southern entrance) which is cumbersome to find from the main road. Thoughts?
I like the problems you're trying to address. However I think on some parts of the route you've traded the speed of the service for actually helping the routes you mention. For example, the 51 is very busy after Welling but the 351 leaves the 51 after Welling. Same with the 89 leaves before Blackheath, and the 132 leaves before Kidbrooke. A route that it shares similarities with, a lot is the 486 (surprised you didn't mention that route). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your route is pointless but I just think it has its own merits that aren't really connected to the 51,89&132. I like the revival of the Euro III DWs Thats my thoughts on your route
|
|
|
Post by thesquirrels on Aug 5, 2015 18:28:57 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's - Millennium Primary School
- then onto A102 and runs express to Sun-in-the-Sands Roundabout
- Shooter's Hill Road
- Shooters Hill
- Welling Station
- Welling Corner
- Hook Lane/ Westwood Lane
- Blackfen
- Wellington Road/ Willersley Avenue
- Sidcup Station
- Sidcup Police Station (for High St.)
- Queen Mary's Hospital
- then onto A20 and runs express to Critall's Corner Roundabout
- Sevenoaks Way
- Cray Valley Road/ Lynton Avenue
- Lynmouth Rise/ Furzehill Square
Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to St Mary Cray Station (southern entrance) which is cumbersome to find from the main road. Thoughts?
I agree with all of the objectives in principle except for this perceived need to hook into the southern entrance of St Mary Cray station.. unless I am missing a point somewhere. The north side is served by five or six routes running up from the main road and links to the south entrance via a short footbridge for any homes in that immediate patch. Also have images of one badly parked commuter car somewhere on Furzehill Square resulting in the route terminating on Cray Avenue all day while the offender is off in London at work/until a towtruck appears. I think a more useful option might be to run it down to the Ramsden Estate, giving that area a direct link to SMC station (currently the only direct railhead option is Orpington, on a separate line, or the R4 and a walk) and all the offerings of the retail park. Generally the idea is a strong offering IMO.
|
|
|
Post by marlon101 on Aug 6, 2015 20:11:09 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's - Millennium Primary School
- then onto A102 and runs express to Sun-in-the-Sands Roundabout
- Shooter's Hill Road
- Shooters Hill
- Welling Station
- Welling Corner
- Hook Lane/ Westwood Lane
- Blackfen
- Wellington Road/ Willersley Avenue
- Sidcup Station
- Sidcup Police Station (for High St.)
- Queen Mary's Hospital
- then onto A20 and runs express to Critall's Corner Roundabout
- Sevenoaks Way
- Cray Valley Road/ Lynton Avenue
- Lynmouth Rise/ Furzehill Square
Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to St Mary Cray Station (southern entrance) which is cumbersome to find from the main road. Thoughts?
Anyway we can eek it out to the PRU? Like it otherwise!
|
|
|
Post by Connor on Aug 7, 2015 19:20:12 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to St Mary Cray Station (southern entrance) which is cumbersome to find from the main road. Thoughts?
I like the problems you're trying to address. However I think on some parts of the route you've traded the speed of the service for actually helping the routes you mention. For example, the 51 is very busy after Welling but the 351 leaves the 51 after Welling. Same with the 89 leaves before Blackheath, and the 132 leaves before Kidbrooke. A route that it shares similarities with, a lot is the 486 (surprised you didn't mention that route). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your route is pointless but I just think it has its own merits that aren't really connected to the 51,89&132. I like the revival of the Euro III DWs Thats my thoughts on your route On the point of the 51 being busy between busy between Welling and Woolwich...why not reroute the 96 to follow the 51 over this part? Perhaps ending the era of packed-mackerel 51's and 53's leaving Woolwich, as well as giving Plumstead Common residents a direct bus route to Bexleyheath and beyond. Upper Wickham Street/Wickham Street still have access to Bexleyheath (the 422 and B15). At the same time, double deck the 178 and extend it to Welling Library to retain Plumstead to Welling link.
|
|
|
Post by Connor on Aug 7, 2015 19:45:06 GMT
I agree with all of the objectives in principle except for this perceived need to hook into the southern entrance of St Mary Cray station.. unless I am missing a point somewhere. The north side is served by five or six routes running up from the main road and links to the south entrance via a short footbridge for any homes in that immediate patch. Also have images of one badly parked commuter car somewhere on Furzehill Square resulting in the route terminating on Cray Avenue all day while the offender is off in London at work/until a towtruck appears. I think a more useful option might be to run it down to the Ramsden Estate, giving that area a direct link to SMC station (currently the only direct railhead option is Orpington, on a separate line, or the R4 and a walk) and all the offerings of the retail park. Generally the idea is a strong offering IMO. I was thinking of running it to Swanley Station; the area could do with a much better bus link into SE London, the poor lil' 233 seems to struggle between there and Sidcup from what I've heard. Stand space could be an issue, maybe nick some parking space at Station Approach in front of derelict-looking office block.... Regarding Ramsden Estate, extend the R9 to Sidcup could do the link to SMC Station as well as aiding the 51. The 353 retains the link to Orpington Station so should be an issue Anyway we can eek it out to the PRU? Like it otherwise! *remembers killer traffic between Orpington and Locksbottom* No.
|
|
|
Post by southeastlondonbus on Aug 7, 2015 22:55:44 GMT
I like the problems you're trying to address. However I think on some parts of the route you've traded the speed of the service for actually helping the routes you mention. For example, the 51 is very busy after Welling but the 351 leaves the 51 after Welling. Same with the 89 leaves before Blackheath, and the 132 leaves before Kidbrooke. A route that it shares similarities with, a lot is the 486 (surprised you didn't mention that route). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your route is pointless but I just think it has its own merits that aren't really connected to the 51,89&132. I like the revival of the Euro III DWs Thats my thoughts on your route On the point of the 51 being busy between busy between Welling and Woolwich...why not reroute the 96 to follow the 51 over this part? Perhaps ending the era of packed-mackerel 51's and 53's leaving Woolwich, as well as giving Plumstead Common residents a direct bus route to Bexleyheath and beyond. Upper Wickham Street/Wickham Street still have access to Bexleyheath (the 422 and B15). At the same time, double deck the 178 and extend it to Welling Library to retain Plumstead to Welling link. Often thought myself that the 96 or 422 could be routed along Kings Highway from Wickham Lane across Plumstead Common to Woolwich would produce the same result without having to go round the back streets of Plumstead/Welling.
|
|
|
Post by marlon101 on Aug 8, 2015 18:56:04 GMT
Anyway we can eek it out to the PRU? Like it otherwise! *remembers killer traffic between Orpington and Locksbottom* No. Darn. I knew someone would say that.
|
|
|
Post by Paul on Aug 8, 2015 19:26:50 GMT
*remembers killer traffic between Orpington and Locksbottom* No. Darn. I knew someone would say that. The traffic between Orpington and Locksbottom isn't that bad. If you have to go via Orpington then maybe the PRU could be reached via the less busy but longer 358 route? Alternatively, double run via whatever the roads to the south entrance of St Mary Cray Station are, squeeze through to Poverest Road (off the top of my head I think Austin Road might be the road I'm thinking of) since the top of Cray Valley Road is probably too narrow for a bus then run via the 61 route and the length of Crofton Lane to the junction with Crofton Road and up to Locksbottom and the PRU It's a decent idea from Connor although I'm unconvinced the 'other' side of SMC Station needs to be served. And despite suggesting alternatives I think the extension to the PRU would probably make the route too long
|
|
|
Post by Paul on Aug 8, 2015 19:39:39 GMT
This is as good a place as any to put this:
Just recently I've had a few people getting on my R7 wanting to connect with the 269. Now it's not a huge walk as it currently stands but I think if the connection were to be improved it would definitely be used
So I was thinking of re-routing the R7 to go ahead on Southborough Road past the front of Bickley Station, right onto Bickley Park Road, right onto Blackbrook Lane and left onto Barfield Road and current line of route. This would leave Hawthorn Road unserved but I don't think it would be a major problem. The Bickley Station stops are the only stops used with any regularity and those people using them are going to or from the station anyway which would be better served by the new routing
This also provides common stops with the 269 and 162 for links further afield and could probably be done within the current timetable since we have plenty of running time anyway and enough recovery time at the Aquila. It's doubtful it would increase running time by much anyway. It also makes my life easier since parking for the station means Hawthorn Road is essentially single track for most of the day!
On a separate note I think reliability on the R5/R10 could be improved if Orpington High Street was only served in one direction on the outbound journey. We lose a lot of time coming back down the High Street so the outbound journey should be down to the War Memorial, left into the High Street, right into Homefield Rise, right into Gravel Pit Way, right into Spur Road and left onto Sevenoaks Road and current line of route
|
|
|
Post by marlon101 on Aug 9, 2015 17:48:02 GMT
This is as good a place as any to put this: Just recently I've had a few people getting on my R7 wanting to connect with the 269. Now it's not a huge walk as it currently stands but I think if the connection were to be improved it would definitely be used So I was thinking of re-routing the R7 to go ahead on Southborough Road past the front of Bickley Station, right onto Bickley Park Road, right onto Blackbrook Lane and left onto Barfield Road and current line of route. This would leave Hawthorn Road unserved but I don't think it would be a major problem. The Bickley Station stops are the only stops used with any regularity and those people using them are going to or from the station anyway which would be better served by the new routing This also provides common stops with the 269 and 162 for links further afield and could probably be done within the current timetable since we have plenty of running time anyway and enough recovery time at the Aquila. It's doubtful it would increase running time by much anyway. It also makes my life easier since parking for the station means Hawthorn Road is essentially single track for most of the day! On a separate note I think reliability on the R5/R10 could be improved if Orpington High Street was only served in one direction on the outbound journey. We lose a lot of time coming back down the High Street so the outbound journey should be down to the War Memorial, left into the High Street, right into Homefield Rise, right into Gravel Pit Way, right into Spur Road and left onto Sevenoaks Road and current line of route It's a shame drivers do not seem to have some sort of institutional, formalised input into the process. All reasonable suggestions it would seem. I made the point a few years back, that it could be said that the system of routes, with the micromanagement of ibus is just too fragmented and that there could be more joined up thinking, whether that be ibus controllers stretching across several routes to maintain headways on key corridors rather than individual routes and indeed, linking the local routes to larger ones makes sense. You will undoubtedly know more about the operational challenges involved, but I imagine it would be harder to co-ordinate journeys if the two routes were held by different operators?
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Aug 9, 2015 19:05:27 GMT
New route 351 - North Greenwich to St Mary Cray Swanley Station - 10 minute frequency - operated by Arriva Kent Thameside - refurbished Euro III DW's - Millennium Primary School
- then onto A102 and runs express to Sun-in-the-Sands Roundabout
- Shooter's Hill Road
- Shooters Hill
- Welling Station
- Welling Corner
- Hook Lane/ Westwood Lane
- Blackfen
- Wellington Road/ Willersley Avenue
- Sidcup Station
- Sidcup Police Station (for High St.)
- Queen Mary's Hospital
- then onto A20 and runs express to Critall's Corner Roundabout
- Edgington Way
- North Cray/Ruxley Roundabout
- Maidstone Road
- London Road
- Swanley Town Centre
- Goldsel Road/ Station Approach
- Swanley Station
Sevenoaks Way
- Cray Valley Road/ Lynton Avenue
- Lynmouth Rise/ Furzehill Square
Came up with route as I have been travelling frequently on the 51 and 89 in the past few weeks, both getting busy over certain sections. The route would relieve the 132 between North Greenwich and Shooter's Hill Road, the 89 between Shooter's Hill Road and Welling, the 51 between Welling and Sidcup/ Foots Cray, the 233 between Sidcup and Swanley; and also the 486 between North Greenwich and Welling indirectly. 2 express sections to speed up journey times/ serious bus thrash for enthusiasts . Improves access to Swanley. Thoughts?
I quite like this one but I was left wondering if this was the new "Connor Bus" to give you a more convenient journey. Still it adds more capacity and links across SE London. To pick up a point raised by Mr Tufty (aka the Squirrels ) how about another route that sort of reverses some of your ideas? Thamesmead West to Peckham. Thamesmead West - Woolwich - then route 51 to Welling - then route 89 to Blackheath (Shooters Hill Road) - then 53 to New Cross and 36 to Peckham Bus Station. Gives a series of new links and supplements capacity of several key links and relieves the 380 at West Thamesmead. It would almost certainly need double deckers and probably a minimum x10 M-S peak & shopping hours service and x15 evenings and x12 Sunday daytimes. My only slight nervousness is getting round West Thamesmead where the roads a bit twisty and turny and there are some low trees which would need some trimming back - cue howls of outrage about that.
|
|