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Post by Hassaan on Jan 23, 2016 18:19:32 GMT
I do not want this to happen. I would hate to see London Overground running my local line (which is the Caterham line). I think TSGN are doing a much better job at it. Sure, there are delays on their services but this is due to the Thameslink Programme. When it is finished, there should be much fewer delays and TSGN's performance should greatly improve. I've been studying the Thameslink Programme for my English Language coursework, and i don't see why everyone keeps on complaining about Southern and Thameslink being delayed when its being advertised everywhere that London Bridge is being rebuilt and there is a Thameslink Programme being done! Why London Victoria trains are being delayed, i don't know, but from what I've seen, its been signal failures mainly, and that is beyond TSGN's control. Most of the newspapers are reporting this is confirmed but it hasn't. Now if this were to happen to the TSGN network, London Overground would inherit all Class 377/6's and 377/7's, the Class 313 replacements and Class 455's if they are still around. I think they will be because, even though they are 32 years old, they only need minor work to be done for the 2020 regulations, and they can be heavily rebuilt, and still would be cheaper than buying 46 new trains to replace them. I think you hold a very naive view on the issue. Do you know how infuriating it is when you are paying thousands of pounds per year for a shambolic service one which is unreliable and where you are cramped in like cattle? Perhaps you do not have to commute, but yes there is the London Bridge works but you cannot just accept "delays" on a daily basis. Personally, the Caterham line is my local as well and I have not seen any fewer delays - but the performance stats will speak for themselves. I am quite shocked that you are "surprised" people are complaining. It can be advertised that LBG is being rebuilt until the cows come home, yet there should be systems in place to cope with the programme thus minimising delays. At the moment, there seems to be no 'systems' only a shambolic way of the programme being managed. An example of this, if you recall, is the best crushing at London Bridge a couple of years back in the PM peak. I for one have became so fed up of using trains especially Southern that I now do not and drive. I have the choice yet many many commuters do not. I am worried if you are one of those people mentioned by T.R. that expect TfL to be a magic wand . Looking at the performance figures for Caterham (to both Victoria and London Bridge in the morning, and from there in the evening), it does appear that there is an average delay of 4 minutes on arrival. Yes I know on time performance is important, but given how tightly things are timed in the peaks, a delay of seconds to one service can snowball to several minutes that affect a large number of services. Most stops at smaller stations are timed at 30 seconds (larger ones are more likely to be 1 minute). That is to open doors, allow people to alight, board, close doors AND start moving again. If station stops take even 5-10 seconds longer at stations becomes a few minutes once several stations have passed, and particularly if any conflicting movements are involved. Actual and average arrival times for direct services in January 2016 Caterham to London Bridge, arr 0600-1000London Bridge to Caterham, dep 1600-2000Caterham to Victoria, arr 0600-1000Victoria to Caterham, dep 1600-2000However, I do not have any sympathy for people who do not allow any extra time for delays. If you know that even with everything going perfectly you arrive at 0857 for a 0900 start, then I'm afraid only the person themselves is to blame. I also do not have any sympathy for people wedging themselves onto fast trains to save 3 minutes instead of taking a less busy train, which I see time and time again. Another thing I see regularly is people having no backup plan whatsoever, and just rant and moan when something has gone wrong instead of knowing and using alternatives, even saving themselves time in the end. Personally, I have lower expectations. I am not particularly bothered if a train is late (if at all, especially where sub-10/15 min delays are concerned), have no issues at all using a route that is a minimum 10 minute slower (rail journey time, not including longer travel to/from stations) but is significantly quieter (SWT Waterloo to Hounslow instead of Piccadilly Line or HC/GW Paddington to Southall), and also ensure I board as early as possible in the evening at Waterloo or Paddington so that I can get a seat (I have never ever failed to get one). I also check beforehand to see if there are any issues (which saved me from a 45 minute gap one morning after double train failures; I was able to cut short breakfast and leave earlier), and with a bit of experience avoid services that I know are going to have issues (e.g. 1652 Waterloo to Weybridge which is booked 5 coaches and a magnet for everyone going to Putney who have a train 6 minutes later, or 0717 Southall to Paddington which is booked 3 coaches and one of the top 10 overcrowded in the country).
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2016 19:48:24 GMT
However, I do not have any sympathy for people who do not allow any extra time for delays. If you know that even with everything going perfectly you arrive at 0857 for a 0900 start, then I'm afraid only the person themselves is to blame. I also do not have any sympathy for people wedging themselves onto fast trains to save 3 minutes instead of taking a less busy train, which I see time and time again. Another thing I see regularly is people having no backup plan whatsoever, and just rant and moan when something has gone wrong instead of knowing and using alternatives, even saving themselves time in the end. A commuter replies ....... Eeeh I don't know. These d*mned posters on forums. They haven't got a clue. Expecting me to get up early to get to work. The *****ing train companies are useless. I expect them to get me to work spot on time. I pay thousands of quid a year for a season ticket. Don't these posters understand that? I mean really!! And as for "back up" plans. Well I can tell you *my* back really is up with these *****ing delays all the time. In fact having to stand all the time really does *my* back in. Why should I have a "back up" plan? I mean why? Since when was it my job to cope with other people's imcompetence. Bl**dy cheek is what I call it. More seriously I always had at least two back up plans for my regular journeys. The simple issue is that most people don't even think about it and then become furious when they "stop". The key is always to keep moving, even if you're walking, as momentum overrides your anger at being mucked about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:41:30 GMT
However, I do not have any sympathy for people who do not allow any extra time for delays. If you know that even with everything going perfectly you arrive at 0857 for a 0900 start, then I'm afraid only the person themselves is to blame. I also do not have any sympathy for people wedging themselves onto fast trains to save 3 minutes instead of taking a less busy train, which I see time and time again. Another thing I see regularly is people having no backup plan whatsoever, and just rant and moan when something has gone wrong instead of knowing and using alternatives, even saving themselves time in the end. A commuter replies ....... Eeeh I don't know. These d*mned posters on forums. They haven't got a clue. Expecting me to get up early to get to work. The *****ing train companies are useless. I expect them to get me to work spot on time. I pay thousands of quid a year for a season ticket. Don't these posters understand that? I mean really!! And as for "back up" plans. Well I can tell you *my* back really is up with these *****ing delays all the time. In fact having to stand all the time really does *my* back in. Why should I have a "back up" plan? I mean why? Since when was it my job to cope with other people's imcompetence. Bl**dy cheek is what I call it. More seriously I always had at least two back up plans for my regular journeys. The simple issue is that most people don't even think about it and then become furious when they "stop". The key is always to keep moving, even if you're walking, as momentum overrides your anger at being mucked about. Easier said than done. Where I work, it would take me literally hours to do an alternative route. There is one train line, which Southeastern have a tendency to cancel trains on frequently. Hence I leave 2 hours to an hour long journey to work, and still get screwed over to and from on a frequent basis. The other day it took me 4 hours to get home from work - most of the buses were nowhere to be seen, and the trains were cancelled repeatedly. I can understand that it's silly to rely on one particular journey to go entirely smoothly and for everything to work as it should, but there comes a point where the alternative public transport is just not there, and there's only so much leeway time you can leave before it gets ridiculous. In London, there's obviously a wealth of ways to make a particular journey, but if your journey happens to stretch beyond TfL's jurisdiction then it's a whole different story.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:45:53 GMT
I'm not convinced that it will make much difference to Southern or SW trains. The tracks are basically full, it will probably be a decade before the 455s get replaced. The LBSC built its stations big style so unlikely to see major station improvements. The Southern railway fixed a lot of bottlenecks and those that remain are expensive to fix. Regarding rolling stock cant see much changing short term, SWT has already ordered new trains for Hounslow lines, and this will allow 10 car trains on Wimbledon lines once platform 1-4 at Waterloo are extended. Can they afford to extend 200 platforms for 12 car suburban, if not then its not much more than change of name. Just some TLC for the stations and the stock on Southern and Southeastern would be most welcome. I agree there is little extra capacity for anymore services on SWT (or Southeastern/Southern in most cases), but TfL controlling the services could mean better integration when it comes to linking them up to Crossrail 2.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2016 21:23:28 GMT
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Post by Hassaan on Jan 23, 2016 21:59:58 GMT
However, I do not have any sympathy for people who do not allow any extra time for delays. If you know that even with everything going perfectly you arrive at 0857 for a 0900 start, then I'm afraid only the person themselves is to blame. I also do not have any sympathy for people wedging themselves onto fast trains to save 3 minutes instead of taking a less busy train, which I see time and time again. Another thing I see regularly is people having no backup plan whatsoever, and just rant and moan when something has gone wrong instead of knowing and using alternatives, even saving themselves time in the end. A commuter replies ....... Eeeh I don't know. These d*mned posters on forums. They haven't got a clue. Expecting me to get up early to get to work. The *****ing train companies are useless. I expect them to get me to work spot on time. I pay thousands of quid a year for a season ticket. Don't these posters understand that? I mean really!! And as for "back up" plans. Well I can tell you *my* back really is up with these *****ing delays all the time. In fact having to stand all the time really does *my* back in. Why should I have a "back up" plan? I mean why? Since when was it my job to cope with other people's imcompetence. Bl**dy cheek is what I call it. More seriously I always had at least two back up plans for my regular journeys. The simple issue is that most people don't even think about it and then become furious when they "stop". The key is always to keep moving, even if you're walking, as momentum overrides your anger at being mucked about. Lool . The bit I've put in bold is what helps me too, and is why any delays with buses feel more annoying than on rail . Not long ago I got caught in separate Jubilee Line issues at Waterloo twice in one day, and both times I was off immediately to another line to continue towards Canning Town, different route each time (morning peak was via Embankment and Tower Hill to avoid possible crowds at Bank, but post-evening peak no problem for the Bank route via Waterloo & City). The delay itself didn't really annoy me; what did was narrowly missing the Every 8 mins DLR (by walking slow due to concentrating on phone ) which left things a bit tight for a pre-0900 arrival. Thinking back, I was probably a bit harsh in earlier post. I can understand people outside London with few alternatives being annoyed, or indeed anyone on any line if there was a recurring issue with something (like the signalling on the GW this week which had held together for some time after a rough patch last year, or recurring short forms on Hounslow Loop). I am also guilty of remembering negative events more than positive events (especially where the Piccadilly Line is involved). And where I'm living I'm lucky in having several separate rail lines nearby (Southall area means GW/Piccadilly Line/Hounslow Loop, while Gallions Reach means DLR/Jubilee/District/Hammersmith&City/c2c), which doesn't exist in some places.
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Post by thewintersoldier on Jan 23, 2016 22:02:08 GMT
I'm not convinced that it will make much difference to Southern or SW trains. The tracks are basically full, it will probably be a decade before the 455s get replaced. The LBSC built its stations big style so unlikely to see major station improvements. The Southern railway fixed a lot of bottlenecks and those that remain are expensive to fix. Regarding rolling stock cant see much changing short term, SWT has already ordered new trains for Hounslow lines, and this will allow 10 car trains on Wimbledon lines once platform 1-4 at Waterloo are extended. Can they afford to extend 200 platforms for 12 car suburban, if not then its not much more than change of name. The 455's are currently being fitted with traction packages, so they will unfortunately be around untill 2021 and beyond...... Incidentally regarding extensions to 12 car platforms, Barnes and North Sheen were extended to 12 cars when the HLOS project began. The platforms between Virginia Water and Reading, and Feltham. Are being extended to allow Reading services to operate 10 car trains. Whether or not they will then extend all platforms to 12 car is something that has not been mentioned, but I reckon in a few years it will have to!
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Post by Hassaan on Jan 23, 2016 22:18:51 GMT
I'm not convinced that it will make much difference to Southern or SW trains. The tracks are basically full, it will probably be a decade before the 455s get replaced. The LBSC built its stations big style so unlikely to see major station improvements. The Southern railway fixed a lot of bottlenecks and those that remain are expensive to fix. Regarding rolling stock cant see much changing short term, SWT has already ordered new trains for Hounslow lines, and this will allow 10 car trains on Wimbledon lines once platform 1-4 at Waterloo are extended. Can they afford to extend 200 platforms for 12 car suburban, if not then its not much more than change of name. The 455's are currently being fitted with traction packages, so they will unfortunately be around untill 2021 and beyond...... Incidentally regarding extensions to 12 car platforms, Barnes and North Sheen were extended to 12 cars when the HLOS project began. The platforms between Virginia Water and Reading, and Feltham. Are being extended to allow Reading services to operate 10 car trains. Whether or not they will then extend all platforms to 12 car is something that has not been mentioned, but I reckon in a few years it will have to! I remember seeing a 12 car stop mark on the down platform at Wokingham. Didn't know some in London were extended to 12, although I don't recall seeing that much space left over at Barnes when a 10 car set is stopped. Something to keep an eye out for at both locations! Several stations didn't get extended past 8, and Chertsey is still 4, which needs to become at least 6 before the 707s get introduced as they don't appear to have gangway connections at the cab ends (or the rear unit gets locked out of use before the station).
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 23, 2016 22:18:46 GMT
I think you hold a very naive view on the issue. Do you know how infuriating it is when you are paying thousands of pounds per year for a shambolic service one which is unreliable and where you are cramped in like cattle? Perhaps you do not have to commute, but yes there is the London Bridge works but you cannot just accept "delays" on a daily basis. Personally, the Caterham line is my local as well and I have not seen any fewer delays - but the performance stats will speak for themselves. I am quite shocked that you are "surprised" people are complaining. It can be advertised that LBG is being rebuilt until the cows come home, yet there should be systems in place to cope with the programme thus minimising delays. At the moment, there seems to be no 'systems' only a shambolic way of the programme being managed. An example of this, if you recall, is the best crushing at London Bridge a couple of years back in the PM peak. I for one have became so fed up of using trains especially Southern that I now do not and drive. I have the choice yet many many commuters do not. I am worried if you are one of those people mentioned by T.R. that expect TfL to be a magic wand . Looking at the performance figures for Caterham (to both Victoria and London Bridge in the morning, and from there in the evening), it does appear that there is an average delay of 4 minutes on arrival. Yes I know on time performance is important, but given how tightly things are timed in the peaks, a delay of seconds to one service can snowball to several minutes that affect a large number of services. Most stops at smaller stations are timed at 30 seconds (larger ones are more likely to be 1 minute). That is to open doors, allow people to alight, board, close doors AND start moving again. If station stops take even 5-10 seconds longer at stations becomes a few minutes once several stations have passed, and particularly if any conflicting movements are involved. Actual and average arrival times for direct services in January 2016 Caterham to London Bridge, arr 0600-1000London Bridge to Caterham, dep 1600-2000Caterham to Victoria, arr 0600-1000Victoria to Caterham, dep 1600-2000However, I do not have any sympathy for people who do not allow any extra time for delays. If you know that even with everything going perfectly you arrive at 0857 for a 0900 start, then I'm afraid only the person themselves is to blame. I also do not have any sympathy for people wedging themselves onto fast trains to save 3 minutes instead of taking a less busy train, which I see time and time again. Another thing I see regularly is people having no backup plan whatsoever, and just rant and moan when something has gone wrong instead of knowing and using alternatives, even saving themselves time in the end. Personally, I have lower expectations. I am not particularly bothered if a train is late (if at all, especially where sub-10/15 min delays are concerned), have no issues at all using a route that is a minimum 10 minute slower (rail journey time, not including longer travel to/from stations) but is significantly quieter (SWT Waterloo to Hounslow instead of Piccadilly Line or HC/GW Paddington to Southall), and also ensure I board as early as possible in the evening at Waterloo or Paddington so that I can get a seat (I have never ever failed to get one). I also check beforehand to see if there are any issues (which saved me from a 45 minute gap one morning after double train failures; I was able to cut short breakfast and leave earlier), and with a bit of experience avoid services that I know are going to have issues (e.g. 1652 Waterloo to Weybridge which is booked 5 coaches and a magnet for everyone going to Putney who have a train 6 minutes later, or 0717 Southall to Paddington which is booked 3 coaches and one of the top 10 overcrowded in the country). Yes I agree, you would be stupid not to have a backup plan. However, one point I will say is that some do not have the luxury of picking and choosing leaving work earlier to get an earlier train or getting on earlier to get a seat etc. I *do not* expect TfL to wave a wand and all problems to go away - anyone thinking that clearly has no idea what is happening so it surprises me you assume I thought that. I agree much with what has been said on this forum about the TfL takeover and not seeing improvements for several years - not months as some commuters expect - more fool them.
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 23, 2016 22:21:45 GMT
Easier said than done. Where I work, it would take me literally hours to do an alternative route. There is one train line, which Southeastern have a tendency to cancel trains on frequently. Hence I leave 2 hours to an hour long journey to work, and still get screwed over to and from on a frequent basis. The other day it took me 4 hours to get home from work - most of the buses were nowhere to be seen, and the trains were cancelled repeatedly. I can understand that it's silly to rely on one particular journey to go entirely smoothly and for everything to work as it should, but there comes a point where the alternative public transport is just not there, and there's only so much leeway time you can leave before it gets ridiculous. In London, there's obviously a wealth of ways to make a particular journey, but if your journey happens to stretch beyond TfL's jurisdiction then it's a whole different story. I 100% agree.
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Post by thewintersoldier on Jan 23, 2016 22:38:25 GMT
The 455's are currently being fitted with traction packages, so they will unfortunately be around untill 2021 and beyond...... Incidentally regarding extensions to 12 car platforms, Barnes and North Sheen were extended to 12 cars when the HLOS project began. The platforms between Virginia Water and Reading, and Feltham. Are being extended to allow Reading services to operate 10 car trains. Whether or not they will then extend all platforms to 12 car is something that has not been mentioned, but I reckon in a few years it will have to! I remember seeing a 12 car stop mark on the down platform at Wokingham. Didn't know some in London were extended to 12, although I don't recall seeing that much space left over at Barnes when a 10 car set is stopped. Something to keep an eye out for at both locations! Several stations didn't get extended past 8, and Chertsey is still 4, which needs to become at least 6 before the 707s get introduced as they don't appear to have gangway connections at the cab ends (or the rear unit gets locked out of use before the station). The Wokingham down platform was extended to 12 coaches during the remodelling of Reading station when the old platforms 4A and 4B were closed. This enabled the SWT and FGW services to terminate at the down platform at Wokingham change ends and go back towards Bracknell/Guildford during the works. By extending it to 12 cars, you could have a 3 car FGW and a 8 car SWT in and out via permissive working methods with one on top of the other Yep have a look at the platform at Barnes when a 10 car is in it. Still plenty of space either ends. Feltham will be extended, the crossing will close. Virginia water country end has blue barriers where PWAY would usually carry out extension works, which looking at it is about the length of about 3 extra coach lengths... But that's speculation, could also be to do with power upgrade. Chertsey the emergency crossover London end is now out of use and removed, so I guess the extension could happen now.
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Post by Busboy105 on Nov 26, 2020 10:30:30 GMT
Been a couple of years now since the proposal. Is this pretty much dead now?
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Post by route53 on Nov 28, 2020 14:02:45 GMT
Been a couple of years now since the proposal. Is this pretty much dead now? I would say so. TfL are broke, due to Covid, they most they’ll probably do is take over the Moorgate lines.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 29, 2020 11:30:54 GMT
I could see the reverse now, as in the government taking control of TfL instead
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Post by route53 on Nov 30, 2020 11:04:45 GMT
To be honest it was pretty much going to be a non starter, many of the routes, especially in South London, have services that run well beyond the London boundary.
The Greenwich/Woolwich line has services that run as far a field as Medway towns and that was taken over by Thameslink because South Eastern felt that it would be easier to split that away from the rest of the franchise in the event of a TfL take over, yet the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines run as far as Gravesend which isn’t as far out as Medway, but still beyond the London boundary.
It also seemed that TfL only wanted to take over the Dartford terminators and the loop services only, so South Eastern still would have been left with Gravesend services anyway, so siphoning off the Gillingham service was a redundant move especially since it now calls at nearly every station making that a metro route rather than the semi fast outer suburban/inter-urban service it was.
They also only wanted to take over Southern services that run either via West Croydon and non Croydon services, leaving East Croydon metro services with Southern.
The whole thing was very confusing, as I said the Moorgate lines will be taken under TfL at some point in the future probably by 2023 I would imagine, but beyond that I think the dream to make the whole of the London suburban rail network orange is just a pipe dream at this point
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