|
Post by snoggle on Mar 4, 2019 16:14:16 GMT
|
|
|
Post by snowman on Mar 4, 2019 18:07:27 GMT
Apart from the obvious shambles, how does replacing two 2car 23m carriages with 124 seats each, by 4car 20m units offer the same capacity. I do think it wrong when the Press Office issues blatent lies knowing they have about 12m (about 40 feet) less train, every half hour but apparently maintaining capacity. I would have thought they have lost about 150-200 seats per hour. Whilst seats don’t exactly equal capacity, that really is stretching PR spin
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 4, 2019 18:15:33 GMT
Apart from the obvious shambles, how does replacing two 2car 23m carriages with 124 seats each, by 4car 20m units offer the same capacity. I do think it wrong when the Press Office issues blatent lies knowing they have about 12m (about 40 feet) less train, every half hour but apparently maintaining capacity. I would have thought they have lost about 150-200 seats per hour. Whilst seats don’t exactly equal capacity, that really is stretching PR spin However the 378s have far more standing room than the 172s, In the Aisle of a 378 you could fit twice as many people then on a 172.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 4, 2019 21:13:57 GMT
Apart from the obvious shambles, how does replacing two 2car 23m carriages with 124 seats each, by 4car 20m units offer the same capacity. I do think it wrong when the Press Office issues blatent lies knowing they have about 12m (about 40 feet) less train, every half hour but apparently maintaining capacity. I would have thought they have lost about 150-200 seats per hour. Whilst seats don’t exactly equal capacity, that really is stretching PR spin As you know they are clearly relying on the huge standing capacity in a 378 to justify the capacity equation and PR fluff. The service is clearly going to be much worse with service frequencies reverting to what they were in 2006 but with the added uncertainty around weekends. I suspect a fair number of passengers will desert the line in the short term when faced with such a service even if the trains are longer. Who wants to be 1 minute late getting off the Vic Line and end up with a 29 min at Blackhorse Road? No one - so people will overload the North London Line instead or pay more to go via Zone 1.
|
|
|
Post by routew15 on Mar 5, 2019 18:08:28 GMT
I dont think it is unrealistic to expect a lot of people to wait or plan for the 30 min intervals.
I think TfLs mildly positive spin on this situation could back fire. There are still a lot of services that run during off peak at 30 mins intervals so it is not unheard of to have people wait or turn up just in time.
There really should be more of a push for people to use alternative routes until service is back where it should be.
|
|
|
Post by redbus on Mar 5, 2019 18:54:45 GMT
I dont think it is unrealistic to expect a lot of people to wait or plan for the 30 min intervals. I think TfLs mildly positive spin on this situation could back fire. There are still a lot of services that run during off peak at 30 mins intervals so it is not unheard of to have people wait or turn up just in time. There really should be more of a push for people to use alternative routes until service is back where it should be. I am afraid I disagree. Back in 2006 or whenever it was and there was a 30 minute service, that was one thing, but when the service has been at x15 for so long it is quite another. Where a service is and has always been x30 people expect that, but won't easily tolerate going back from x15 to x30. Imagine turning the Jubilee line into x30 and you would probably have riots and that is taking this to its logical conclusion.
I agree alternatives should be well publicised, but even better would have been to avoid this situation in the first instance, prevention after all is better than cure!
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 5, 2019 20:11:23 GMT
I dont think it is unrealistic to expect a lot of people to wait or plan for the 30 min intervals. I think TfLs mildly positive spin on this situation could back fire. There are still a lot of services that run during off peak at 30 mins intervals so it is not unheard of to have people wait or turn up just in time. There really should be more of a push for people to use alternative routes until service is back where it should be. The problem, as you know, is that TfL are materially worsening the service. Many people are already on tight schedules on their commute so forcing people to leave earlier or somehow negotiate with their employer for a later arrival is not on. Those who have commuted on the line for a long while have tolerated appalling overcrowding, multiple long term closures, weekend closures and in recent times increased unreliability. It really is pushing beyond the limit to expect them to "happily" accept a reduced service and no clarity about weekend services. Yes some people put up with half hourly suburban services but I don't. It's one reason why I don't use main line trains in South London expect on the main trunk routes. Public transport in urban areas is supposed to be frequent and convenient. I'll tolerate half hourly services on inter city routes but it's pathetic in a capital city. Hindsight is a great thing but let's just say different decisions in the past could have avoided this. It is also evident that the basic management of the electrification project has been lacking.
|
|
|
Post by routew15 on Mar 5, 2019 20:21:29 GMT
I dont think it is unrealistic to expect a lot of people to wait or plan for the 30 min intervals. I think TfLs mildly positive spin on this situation could back fire. There are still a lot of services that run during off peak at 30 mins intervals so it is not unheard of to have people wait or turn up just in time. There really should be more of a push for people to use alternative routes until service is back where it should be. I am afraid I disagree. Back in 2006 or whenever it was and there was a 30 minute service, that was one thing, but when the service has been at x15 for so long it is quite another. Where a service is and has always been x30 people expect that, but won't easily tolerate going back from x15 to x30. Imagine turning the Jubilee line into x30 and you would probably have riots and that is taking this to its logical conclusion.
I agree alternatives should be well publicised, but even better would have been to avoid this situation in the first instance, prevention after all is better than cure!
Sorry that comparison does not conflate with what i have said. The Jubilee is an intensive metro service. The Overground is a quarterly suburban service. If the GOBLIN was every 2 mins then a reduction to 30 mins would be catastrophic to put it lightly. The GOBLIN will be losing two services (whilst two too many) not 34. Therefore i don’t accept what you have said at all. My paragraph is not to say that all passengers will be turn up for the route but it would be neive to expect that people can not retime their journeys to fit this reduced service. The service is not suspended but redcued and at simple to understand intervals with promises of units that will maintain existing capacity. That will good enough for quite a few who do not wishes diverting. I absolutely agree howver that to have prevented this situation in the first place would of been ideal. Although it seems to be a recurring pattern for transport infrastructure in London to be delayed and most strands lead to one culprit as an underlying cause for delay...
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Mar 5, 2019 20:48:11 GMT
I am afraid I disagree. Back in 2006 or whenever it was and there was a 30 minute service, that was one thing, but when the service has been at x15 for so long it is quite another. Where a service is and has always been x30 people expect that, but won't easily tolerate going back from x15 to x30. Imagine turning the Jubilee line into x30 and you would probably have riots and that is taking this to its logical conclusion.
I agree alternatives should be well publicised, but even better would have been to avoid this situation in the first instance, prevention after all is better than cure!
Sorry that comparison does not conflate with what i have said. The Jubilee is an intensive metro service. The Overground is a quarterly suburban service. If the GOBLIN was every 2 mins then a reduction to 30 mins would be catastrophic to put it lightly. The GOBLIN will be losing two services (whilst two too many) not 34. Therefore i don’t accept what you have said at all. My paragraph is not to say that all passengers will be turn up for the route but it would be neive to expect that people can not retime their journeys to fit this reduced service. The service is not suspended but redcued and at simple to understand intervals with promises of units that will maintain existing capacity. That will good enough for quite a few who do not wishes diverting. I absolutely agree howver that to have prevented this situation in the first place would of been ideal. Although it seems to be a recurring pattern for transport infrastructure in London to be delayed and most strands lead to one culprit as an underlying cause for delay... As I understand it, the GOBLIN is extremely busy even with the 15 min service so I fail to see any defence in cutting it in half to 30 minutes other than TfL doing so through their own incompetence. To then say people should re-time their journeys is utter madness personally - why should passengers continually suffer the stupid mistakes of train operators or TfL in this case?
|
|
|
Post by routew15 on Mar 5, 2019 21:42:44 GMT
Sorry that comparison does not conflate with what i have said. The Jubilee is an intensive metro service. The Overground is a quarterly suburban service. If the GOBLIN was every 2 mins then a reduction to 30 mins would be catastrophic to put it lightly. The GOBLIN will be losing two services (whilst two too many) not 34. Therefore i don’t accept what you have said at all. My paragraph is not to say that all passengers will be turn up for the route but it would be neive to expect that people can not retime their journeys to fit this reduced service. The service is not suspended but redcued and at simple to understand intervals with promises of units that will maintain existing capacity. That will good enough for quite a few who do not wishes diverting. I absolutely agree howver that to have prevented this situation in the first place would of been ideal. Although it seems to be a recurring pattern for transport infrastructure in London to be delayed and most strands lead to one culprit as an underlying cause for delay... As I understand it, the GOBLIN is extremely busy even with the 15 min service so I fail to see any defence in cutting it in half to 30 minutes other than TfL doing so through their own incompetence. To then say people should re-time their journeys is utter madness personally - why should passengers continually suffer the stupid mistakes of train operators or TfL in this case? Im not defending the reduction in service. Simply pointing out that services reduction does not equal desertion of the line. As my orinigal post falls just short of saying TfL are not advising people to solely seek alternative route, they are saying capacity will be maintained which may not put people off, so many will simply turn up at adjusted times. Im suggesting people should change there timings but some will where allowed in their schedule.
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Mar 5, 2019 22:16:25 GMT
When the 73 bus route was converted from Routemaster to bendybus operation in 2004, an allocation of 55 reduced to 42 and, of course, the number of seats on each bus was fewer too. Despite this, TfL brought out a leaflet (remember those? lol) claiming the service was getting 'better from every angle', a spurious claim even if, like me, you accepted the Routemasters had had their day, sadly, and now had to go. It was an insensitive remark guaranteed to put people's backs up. Although I thought the bendy had more pluses than minuses, I admit to never finding them suitable for the 73. So, crass publicity to conceal the true situation is nothing new.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Mar 5, 2019 22:51:54 GMT
Although it seems to be a recurring pattern for transport infrastructure in London to be delayed and most strands lead to one culprit as an underlying cause for delay... Only in the last 3 or 4 years. Prior to that the TfL organisation was achieving a decent delivery of all projects whether large or small. The Vic Line upgrade came in pretty smartly despite my worst fears. The Northern Line upgrade similarly although that was built on the rubble from the disastrous Jubilee Line upgrade where LU, Tube Lines and Thales had horrendous learning curves to face. Prior to that the 7th car project on the Jubilee Line was done smoothly. Now I wonder what's happened in the last 3-4 years? Oh yes endless reorganisations, huge staff cuts, massive loss of knowledge and experience by booting out older staff and massive budget pressures. Those self same budget pressures worsened by every cock up by the new inexperienced staff causing delays and cost increases. And before any says it that is not sour grapes from me at all. It is what happens when you repeatedly throw organisational structures up in the air and cause disruption to previously understood processes and ways of working. If you're referring to Network Rail as the villain of the piece then I'm not sure that's entirely fair either. It's been in endless reorganisation mode for years and has had stupid cutbacks forced on it in the name of "efficiency" by ORR who have to come back and unravel those cuts. The timetabling disaster is the main example of this disastrous ill thought external interference. You can argue something similar in respect of the standards for electrification which have shoved costs sky high for no obvious benefit. I have to seriously question whether the GOBLIN needs the volume of steelwork it has just to hold up some wires.
|
|
|
Post by galwhv69 on Mar 6, 2019 8:20:52 GMT
Finally some info in the Metro
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 6, 2019 15:29:35 GMT
Today there are 'minor delays' on the NLL (Euston - Watford Junction) due to a shortage of trains. I say 'minor delays' as one missing train can mean a gap of 40 minutes which for me is not minor. Dare I suggest this is the sort of thing snoggle was warning about when saying you can't keep running trains flat out and have no spares. It begs the question as to whether another train could have been substituted and stop the delays had all the spare trains not been on the GOBLIN? Well at times the North London line has trains cancelled and no mention of it on systems. if you turn up to the station, it would be just a long wait. It only shows the train not running on National rail website. There are a few in the afternoon that do not run from Stratford now.
|
|
|
Post by rif153 on Mar 6, 2019 17:50:28 GMT
Does anyone know when the month's free travel for GOBLIN passengers is going to happen? If I were a GOBLIN passenger, I'd be pretty p***** off that I was having to endure a dire service and squeeze onto trains which are less frequent for TFL saying 'It'll all come out in the wash' so to speak. On another note, whilst London Overground has certainly improved lines which were terrible before, its funny how we haven't heard any of the incompetent fools who Sadiq Khan surrounds himself with sorry, I think I'm supposed to call them deputy mayors even though there are about a hundred of them, asking Chris Grayling to transfer control of London's suburban rail network to TFL lately. I'm glad Khan and his cronies have been bought crashing back down to earth
|
|