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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 9:57:12 GMT
R7 Extended to Chelsfied Village & Chislehurst, War Memorial PVR 4? This is what us drivers are assuming and indeed one of the GSs suggested it as well. I can back it up with maths if no one objects? No? OK, don't get too bored The cheaper option is obviously 3 buses. This means a round trip would need to be completed in 90 minutes. When you take off the minimum 5 minutes stand time at each end that leaves 80 minutes running time. During the day Orpington to Bickley gets 28 minutes. Bickley to Chislehurst War Memorial should be around 8 minutes and Orpington to Chelsfield Village something like 10 minutes (longer on the return journey). This gives a total running time for one trip at something like 46-50 minutes and includes only 5 minutes recovery time at each end. Given that we are probably going to need more than that (particularly at the Chislehurst end) I just can't see how they would make 3 buses work; it'll have to be 4 buses
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Post by jay38a on Feb 21, 2016 10:02:31 GMT
R7 Extended to Chelsfied Village & Chislehurst, War Memorial PVR 4? This is what us drivers are assuming and indeed one of the GSs suggested it as well. I can back it up with maths if no one objects? No? OK, don't get too bored The cheaper option is obviously 3 buses. This means a round trip would need to be completed in 90 minutes. When you take off the minimum 5 minutes stand time at each end that leaves 80 minutes running time. During the day Orpington to Bickley gets 28 minutes. Bickley to Chislehurst War Memorial should be around 8 minutes and Orpington to Chelsfield Village something like 10 minutes (longer on the return journey). This gives a total running time for one trip at something like 46-50 minutes and includes only 5 minutes recovery time at each end. Given that we are probably going to need more than that (particularly at the Chislehurst end) I just can't see how they would make 3 buses work; it'll have to be 4 buses You wouldn't get 5 at Chelsfeild, it's a hesitation point like the Queens Head is on the R5/R10, we only get 2 mins at the moment.
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 21, 2016 10:10:04 GMT
R7 Extended to Chelsfied Village & Chislehurst, War Memorial PVR 4? This is what us drivers are assuming and indeed one of the GSs suggested it as well. I can back it up with maths if no one objects? No? OK, don't get too bored The cheaper option is obviously 3 buses. This means a round trip would need to be completed in 90 minutes. When you take off the minimum 5 minutes stand time at each end that leaves 80 minutes running time. During the day Orpington to Bickley gets 28 minutes. Bickley to Chislehurst War Memorial should be around 8 minutes and Orpington to Chelsfield Village something like 10 minutes (longer on the return journey). This gives a total running time for one trip at something like 46-50 minutes and includes only 5 minutes recovery time at each end. Given that we are probably going to need more than that (particularly at the Chislehurst end) I just can't see how they would make 3 buses work; it'll have to be 4 buses I really now strongly think Gordon Arms should be the official terminus just so that it is always full up . Yesterday I had to laugh, there was a Car parked at the 61 stand on the double yellow lines, so what does the 61 driver do, park right next to it and block in the Car in which was unattended I had to laugh. I don't blame him at all, was already a 61 there and what is he meant to do, block up Belmont Lane, he blocked up Green Lane. Seriously some pathetic car drivers in Chislehurst. Never a traffic Warden around when needed. That Junction of Belmont Lane & Green Lane needs to become a strict red-route.
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 10:11:18 GMT
This is what us drivers are assuming and indeed one of the GSs suggested it as well. I can back it up with maths if no one objects? No? OK, don't get too bored The cheaper option is obviously 3 buses. This means a round trip would need to be completed in 90 minutes. When you take off the minimum 5 minutes stand time at each end that leaves 80 minutes running time. During the day Orpington to Bickley gets 28 minutes. Bickley to Chislehurst War Memorial should be around 8 minutes and Orpington to Chelsfield Village something like 10 minutes (longer on the return journey). This gives a total running time for one trip at something like 46-50 minutes and includes only 5 minutes recovery time at each end. Given that we are probably going to need more than that (particularly at the Chislehurst end) I just can't see how they would make 3 buses work; it'll have to be 4 buses You wouldn't get 5 at Chelsfeild, it's a hesitation point like the Queens Head is on the R5/R10, we only get 2 mins at the moment. Hmmm, a driver at our place who used to do the R3s said he got recovery time up there I guess, with some paring back of the running times and only a quick hesitation at Chelsfield Village, 3 buses might be possible. It'll be extremely tight though; 4 buses would provide a much more reliable service
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 10:29:23 GMT
This is what us drivers are assuming and indeed one of the GSs suggested it as well. I can back it up with maths if no one objects? No? OK, don't get too bored The cheaper option is obviously 3 buses. This means a round trip would need to be completed in 90 minutes. When you take off the minimum 5 minutes stand time at each end that leaves 80 minutes running time. During the day Orpington to Bickley gets 28 minutes. Bickley to Chislehurst War Memorial should be around 8 minutes and Orpington to Chelsfield Village something like 10 minutes (longer on the return journey). This gives a total running time for one trip at something like 46-50 minutes and includes only 5 minutes recovery time at each end. Given that we are probably going to need more than that (particularly at the Chislehurst end) I just can't see how they would make 3 buses work; it'll have to be 4 buses I really now strongly think Gordon Arms should be the official terminus just so that it is always full up . Yesterday I had to laugh, there was a Car parked at the 61 stand on the double yellow lines, so what does the 61 driver do, park right next to it and block in the Car in which was unattended I had to laugh. I don't blame him at all, was already a 61 there and what is he meant to do, block up Belmont Lane, he blocked up Green Lane. Seriously some pathetic car drivers in Chislehurst. Never a traffic Warden around when needed. That Junction of Belmont Lane & Green Lane needs to become a strict red-route. I found that most of the time there were cars parked at the end of the bus cage, on the double yellow lines. I've blocked in more than one car in my time driving 61s This is actually the only concern I would have with the Gordon Arms being the new R7 terminus. As it stands right now, there would be times when it wouldn't be possible to get onto the stand. The cage would need to be extended and given the lack of parking enforcement, maybe cameras installed to deter cars from parking where they shouldn't
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 21, 2016 10:41:38 GMT
I really now strongly think Gordon Arms should be the official terminus just so that it is always full up . Yesterday I had to laugh, there was a Car parked at the 61 stand on the double yellow lines, so what does the 61 driver do, park right next to it and block in the Car in which was unattended I had to laugh. I don't blame him at all, was already a 61 there and what is he meant to do, block up Belmont Lane, he blocked up Green Lane. Seriously some pathetic car drivers in Chislehurst. Never a traffic Warden around when needed. That Junction of Belmont Lane & Green Lane needs to become a strict red-route. I found that most of the time there were cars parked at the end of the bus cage, on the double yellow lines. I've blocked in more than one car in my time driving 61s This is actually the only concern I would have with the Gordon Arms being the new R7 terminus. As it stands right now, there would be times when it wouldn't be possible to get onto the stand. The cage would need to be extended and given the lack of parking enforcement, maybe cameras installed to deter cars from parking where they shouldn't You have a good point there. Don't want a bus blocking the end of Belmont Lane either, most of the time I only ever see 1 61 on the stand so thought the R7 could get away with it. Speaking of Cameras with the technology in place today surprised buses don't have Automatic cameras to send pics to Traffic enforcement to issues fines.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2016 10:46:58 GMT
You wouldn't get 5 at Chelsfeild, it's a hesitation point like the Queens Head is on the R5/R10, we only get 2 mins at the moment. Hmmm, a driver at our place who used to do the R3s said he got recovery time up there I guess, with some paring back of the running times and only a quick hesitation at Chelsfield Village, 3 buses might be possible. It'll be extremely tight though; 4 buses would provide a much more reliable service You know what will happen - anyone who bids with 4 buses won't get the contract. A bid with 3 buses will win, be unreliable and then either the operator has to fund an extra bus or TfL have to drop the frequency to work within the contracted resource as has happened so many times on the Orpington network. I'd love to be proved wrong on this btw - I'd much prefer the new R7 to be a proper headway service with the right resources.
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 10:48:18 GMT
I found that most of the time there were cars parked at the end of the bus cage, on the double yellow lines. I've blocked in more than one car in my time driving 61s This is actually the only concern I would have with the Gordon Arms being the new R7 terminus. As it stands right now, there would be times when it wouldn't be possible to get onto the stand. The cage would need to be extended and given the lack of parking enforcement, maybe cameras installed to deter cars from parking where they shouldn't You have a good point there. Don't want a bus blocking the end of Belmont Lane either, most of the time I only ever see 1 61 on the stand so thought the R7 could get away with it It's been a while since I drove a 61 so it may have changed but I remember there being an overlap of a few minutes between one bus arriving and one bus leaving. Add an R7 into that mix and it suddenly gets very busy down there! It's amazing what some people will believe what you tell them when you point out the front facing camera
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 10:58:04 GMT
Hmmm, a driver at our place who used to do the R3s said he got recovery time up there I guess, with some paring back of the running times and only a quick hesitation at Chelsfield Village, 3 buses might be possible. It'll be extremely tight though; 4 buses would provide a much more reliable service You know what will happen - anyone who bids with 4 buses won't get the contract. A bid with 3 buses will win, be unreliable and then either the operator has to fund an extra bus or TfL have to drop the frequency to work within the contracted resource as has happened so many times on the Orpington network. I'd love to be proved wrong on this btw - I'd much prefer the new R7 to be a proper headway service with the right resources. You're right; although the preference is for a proper, reliable half hour service with 4 buses I won't be at all surprised to end up struggling with 3
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 21, 2016 11:06:20 GMT
Hmmm, a driver at our place who used to do the R3s said he got recovery time up there I guess, with some paring back of the running times and only a quick hesitation at Chelsfield Village, 3 buses might be possible. It'll be extremely tight though; 4 buses would provide a much more reliable service You know what will happen - anyone who bids with 4 buses won't get the contract. A bid with 3 buses will win, be unreliable and then either the operator has to fund an extra bus or TfL have to drop the frequency to work within the contracted resource as has happened so many times on the Orpington network. I'd love to be proved wrong on this btw - I'd much prefer the new R7 to be a proper headway service with the right resources. Is the R7 being re-tendered if the change happens though? Only two years and two months into the contract. Not often a route is re-tendered for an Extension. Only example being the 359 which had a PVR of 0.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2016 11:19:08 GMT
You know what will happen - anyone who bids with 4 buses won't get the contract. A bid with 3 buses will win, be unreliable and then either the operator has to fund an extra bus or TfL have to drop the frequency to work within the contracted resource as has happened so many times on the Orpington network. I'd love to be proved wrong on this btw - I'd much prefer the new R7 to be a proper headway service with the right resources. Is the R7 being re-tendered if the change happens though? Not often a route is re-tendered for an Extension. Only example being the 359 which had a PVR of 0. You're right - it's not being re-tendered at present but I expect the negotiation with Stagecoach will be under pressure to keep costs down. That's clearly an overriding theme in these Orpington changes - no overall increase in cost. Every improvement is balanced by a cut somewhere else because the network overall clearly consumes a lot of money for the relatively generous service levels for the patronage on offer.
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 11:28:55 GMT
Is the R7 being re-tendered if the change happens though? Not often a route is re-tendered for an Extension. Only example being the 359 which had a PVR of 0. You're right - it's not being re-tendered at present but I expect the negotiation with Stagecoach will be under pressure to keep costs down. That's clearly an overriding theme in these Orpington changes - no overall increase in cost. Every improvement is balanced by a cut somewhere else because the network overall clearly consumes a lot of money for the relatively generous service levels for the patronage on offer. I haven't looked at the figures but I presume the goal of the changes is to reduce overall costs. So the withdrawal of the R3 between Orpington and Chelsfield Village, the withdrawal of the R2 between Petts Wood and Orpington and the reductions to the R1 balanced against the increases in service on the R7 probably come out to an overall cost decrease. I wonder where a PVR of 4 on the R7 takes that saving? I'll turn off cynical mode now
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Post by DT 11 on Feb 21, 2016 11:41:42 GMT
Is the R7 being re-tendered if the change happens though? Not often a route is re-tendered for an Extension. Only example being the 359 which had a PVR of 0. You're right - it's not being re-tendered at present but I expect the negotiation with Stagecoach will be under pressure to keep costs down. That's clearly an overriding theme in these Orpington changes - no overall increase in cost. Every improvement is balanced by a cut somewhere else because the network overall clearly consumes a lot of money for the relatively generous service levels for the patronage on offer. I see, personally I think the route will most likely struggle with 3 buses. For some of the reasons already stated plus if the route is to double run Orpington High Street that needs to be taken into Consideration as well. That Orpington War Memorial Roundabout at times can take a while to get through. If the R7 becomes unreliable watch how quickly people will stop using it. Also assume the 146, R5, R7 & R10 will go on one rota. With the 336 on a rota of its own.
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2016 12:33:57 GMT
Also assume the 146, R5, R7 & R10 will go on one rota. With the 336 on a rota of its own A lot of us on the R Route rota are expecting the 146 to join our rota. I must stress that we haven't been given any indication that this will happen, it's simply speculation based on the fact the nature of the 146 is very similar to the R Routes ie low frequency and rural We are, however, expecting some quite sweeping changes to our rota with the R7 changes. Currently, our latest duty finishes a little after 2230 and assuming Chelsfield Village retains its late night service, this will change. We also have 261 duties on Sundays currently but with a 2 bus, hourly service on the R7 that will probably change to 5 duties on the R7 (based on the Sunday duties on the 246 that used to number 5 with an hourly 2 bus service) Who knows, we might even get rid of the 664!
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Post by danorak on Mar 5, 2016 14:07:08 GMT
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