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Post by vjaska on Feb 9, 2016 2:10:29 GMT
Having had a look at the detail a few comments. 1. Agree that Westferry Road is tremendously busy. When I rode the IOD routes they were all stupidly busy round there and that was off peak / PM schools time. The real peak must be dreadful so adding more double decks makes sense. 2. With the arrival of Wood Wharf redevelopment in a few years then there will be more demand on Prestons Road / east end of Canary Wharf so not entirely sure TfL have got this right by putting the D3 through there and reducing M-F frequencies on the D7. IME the D7 is busy out of All Saints so a frequency cut there may not work. The D7 has had soaring demand in recent years. 3. Really not at all sure about the D8 / 108 swap. Without a detailed view of journey patterns it's impossible to know just what's being broken here. IME the 108 has a reasonable number of trips from south of the Thames to the A12 corridor so breaking those links may not be popular. Furthermore interchange at the Blackwall Tunnel area is ghastly and people will need to cross the road at All Saints to change between the 108 and D8. Can't see that being popular or safe if people try to dash across the road. 4. Again limited experience of the D8 but it struck me as very busy between south of All Saints and the section north thereof. Would like to see the number of through journeys being broken. 5. The stats do show the D3 has had a big drop in patronage so perhaps understandable to swap it. Serving Blackwall Avenue looks sensible to me but Streetview shows it as not a through road at present. I assume that's changed. Patronage to Leamouth on the 277 was thin when I rode it so sending DDs along there probably is a waste. 6. Bigger buses on the 108 is long overdue so good that it appears to be happening. 7. I'm ambivalent about whether the 108 runs to Stratford City or not. In some ways it'd be more convenient for me as it would connect with the 97. However I can see there being issues with people who use it from Stratford / Stratford Broadway. It loads very well from those stops so sending it through the Olympic Park may upset a lot of people depending on where they are going. It also breaks a simple interchange for night travellers at Stratford Bus Station. Having to schlep from Stratford City or change buses on Stratford High Street to a 25 and then possibly again to a N86 won't please people. On the sole occasion I used the N108 there were plenty of people off the N108 and on to other buses (warnings about tiny sample size apply). I'd be tempted not to send the N108 to Stratford City and actually create a real N108 running to Stratford Bus Station. 8. Not familiar with demand on Spindrift Avenue but as there is a health facility there (as stated in another post) then removing a service seems rather daft given how much people rely on buses to access such places. Spindrift Avenue is also fairly long so it's a bit of cut for people although there aren't many stops on the road. There doesn't seem to be anything stopping a double deck going down there but I guess TfL don't want any diverting off the main drag. So overall not bad in terms of adding capacity to the south end of the IOD but not terribly sure about the rest. There seems to be a lot of broken links for no good reason. Do people at Langdon Park really have an insatiable urge to reach the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich? I mean really?! Regarding point 3, I wonder how many people use the D8 across All Saints at present - again, I only used the route once and from Crossharbour to All Saints, we hardly picked up anyone at all. If that is a regular occurrence, then I can see why TfL have proposed the idea though I don't necessarily agree with the swap.
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Post by joefrombow on Feb 9, 2016 6:29:19 GMT
As a regular user of the D8 during peaks there is a lot of traffic at All saints buses quite often get curtailed to Canary Wharf or Poplar and Bow Church in the opposite direction as for diverting the 108 via Devon's road I can see the journey time rising quite significantly its bad enough as it is via northern approach not too keen on that idea ? Maybe a school route could sort that out as it does say about the catchment area for bow school as for the 108 I can't see it helping journey times to be honest i would say leave it as it is and swap termini at Stratford on 108 and D8 as for the 277 plans makes sense to me as most buses carry fresh air to leamouth but in a way makes the D7 pretty pointless extend the 277 to All saints via the D7 from Canary Wharf change the 135 to the D3's current routing and the D3 to the current 135 routing from spindrift avenue and extend the 330 to Canary Wharf via the proposed D3 routing and the lower lea crossing maybe ??
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Post by joefrombow on Feb 9, 2016 18:53:03 GMT
Attachment Deleted A perfect example of a typical weekday on the D8 now imagine that with all the traffic at Blackheath and Blackwall tunnel southern approach not a good idea in my opinion .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 20:56:00 GMT
When I first looked at the 108 / D8, I was a bit scepital about them, but thinking about it, it would allow the certain increases on buses and remove route 108 out of the Northern Approach. However, I don't think the D8 needs double decks, I hardly ever see it full at Stratford City.
Also, I am bit worried about the removal of bus service on Spritift Avenue, and TFL are seeing it as nothing. I would maybe alter the changes in the Isle of Dogs, possibly making route D8 go to the south of the Isle of Dogs. This is something that could be considered.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 21:02:52 GMT
When I first looked at the 108 / D8, I was a bit scepital about them, but thinking about it, it would allow the certain increases on buses and remove route 108 out of the Northern Approach. However, I don't think the D8 needs double decks, I hardly ever see it full at Stratford City. Also, I am bit worried about the removal of bus service on Spritift Avenue, and TFL are seeing it as nothing. I would maybe alter the changes in the Isle of Dogs, possibly making route D8 go to the south of the Isle of Dogs. This is something that could be considered. The traffic can be pretty bad on East India Dock Road going down to the tunnel so will still suffer on that section.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 9, 2016 21:12:57 GMT
When I first looked at the 108 / D8, I was a bit scepital about them, but thinking about it, it would allow the certain increases on buses and remove route 108 out of the Northern Approach. However, I don't think the D8 needs double decks, I hardly ever see it full at Stratford City. Also, I am bit worried about the removal of bus service on Spritift Avenue, and TFL are seeing it as nothing. I would maybe alter the changes in the Isle of Dogs, possibly making route D8 go to the south of the Isle of Dogs. This is something that could be considered. The problem with swapping the D8 & 108 is you risk screwing up both routes because of Blackwall Tunnel and the A102. At present, the D8 avoids that. Out of interest for anyone local, is the D8 regularly quiet between All Saints & Crossharbour?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 21:39:35 GMT
Introducing bigger buses on to the 108 will help with the peak hour capacity problems between Lewisham and North Greenwich Station. However, I am not sure about the changes with route D8 other than route 108 would run closer to the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park if I read the 108/D8 section of the consultation correctly.
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Post by joefrombow on Feb 10, 2016 1:12:04 GMT
When I first looked at the 108 / D8, I was a bit scepital about them, but thinking about it, it would allow the certain increases on buses and remove route 108 out of the Northern Approach. However, I don't think the D8 needs double decks, I hardly ever see it full at Stratford City. Also, I am bit worried about the removal of bus service on Spritift Avenue, and TFL are seeing it as nothing. I would maybe alter the changes in the Isle of Dogs, possibly making route D8 go to the south of the Isle of Dogs. This is something that could be considered. The problem with swapping the D8 & 108 is you risk screwing up both routes because of Blackwall Tunnel and the A102. At present, the D8 avoids that. Out of interest for anyone local, is the D8 regularly quiet between All Saints & Crossharbour? I would say so from the Morning until after the evening peak fairly busy but not packed to the Rafter's busy alot of people from the Bow area use it as a Shopping bus to get to Asda at Crossharbour .
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Post by vjaska on Feb 10, 2016 1:16:19 GMT
The problem with swapping the D8 & 108 is you risk screwing up both routes because of Blackwall Tunnel and the A102. At present, the D8 avoids that. Out of interest for anyone local, is the D8 regularly quiet between All Saints & Crossharbour? I would say so from the Morning until after the evening peak fairly busy but not packed to the Rafter's busy alot of people from the Bow area use it as a Shopping bus to get to Asda at Crossharbour . Thanks for that. So my D8 journey went against the norm as it was just me on my own from Crossharbour to All Saints before the bus got very busy.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 13, 2016 17:29:14 GMT
Looking at the start dates for the new D3 and D7 contracts (mid Sept 2016) I assume TfL will want to bring in these changes at around that time. Also coincides with the new school term start (near enough). The 108 new contract starts a fortnight later so I guess they'll bring it forward slightly so that whoever runs it only runs on the new route alignment.
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Post by Nathan on Feb 13, 2016 17:58:30 GMT
Looking at the start dates for the new D3 and D7 contracts (mid Sept 2016) I assume TfL will want to bring in these changes at around that time. Also coincides with the new school term start (near enough). The 108 new contract starts a fortnight later so I guess they'll bring it forward slightly so that whoever runs it only runs on the new route alignment. The 108 may change upon contract renewal/award. Or maybe just before then.
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Post by Enivro PB on Feb 16, 2016 16:15:07 GMT
Apart from the terminus swap for the 108 and improved capacity along Westferry Road, nothing else from this consultation is beneficial. Rerouting D3 screams common sense the amount of fresh air the 277 carries beyond Canary Wharf, and will give improved night links to Crossharbour where a 24 hours Asda has no public means to ferry customers and staff safely at night.
Almost everything else is abominable. Route D7 is rendered useless, as seen with a frequency reduction and overlapping from routes 277 and 135 for the vast majority of its routeing. Extending the 330 west from Canning Town to the Isle of Dogs would've given more capacity and allowed Spindrift Avenue to keep the link many mobility passengers from the local area and the rest of the Tower Hamlets borough adore.
The best thing about Docklands routes that shadow DLR lines is that though passenger patronage is virtually nil in the evenings (weekends buck the trend), should there be disruption with trains passengers are assured a bus service as a backup. Routes 147, 376 and 474 are the best examples of that along with D8. It ironically loads best along the section that it closely follows the Stratford DLR line; between Bow Church and Canary Wharf. Yet TfL wish to displace these journeys, as well as add additional, unnecessary running times to the 108 by arguably taking the bus through a more congested routeing than it is now. Though I initially agree to swap termini with Stratofrd International, I worry about established links particularly at night for the ONLY east London route to cross the river.
My fear is that TfL are trying to force what's 'best' for the customer by breaking bus links to telepathise minds to other modes of transport. Far too evident in how long they took in May 2008 to increase the evening and Sunday service on the 108 from every 20 to every 15 mins and using shorter than specified Darts (off route 132). Buses were heaving from Stratford Broadway and would struggle to accept new passengers before the A12, and was commonplace in early evenings and Sundays. All because in those days the DLR from Stratford went through to Lewisham and commuters saw the 108 as the cheaper alternative as well as that of the Jubilee line to North Greenwich.
The same tough love is being reintroduced to the 108 in this consultation, and if the planned changes go ahead that will see a shatter to direct bus links from Stratford to North Greenwich. And if TfL are willing to do this to the 108, then I wait in shock and horror to what they plan to do with the 25 and Crossrail, the magical silver travel bullet for east London.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 16, 2016 17:31:08 GMT
Apart from the terminus swap for the 108 and improved capacity along Westferry Road, nothing else from this consultation is beneficial. Rerouting D3 screams common sense the amount of fresh air the 277 carries beyond Canary Wharf, and will give improved night links to Crossharbour where a 24 hours Asda has no public means to ferry customers and staff safely at night. Almost everything else is abominable. Route D7 is rendered useless, as seen with a frequency reduction and overlapping from routes 277 and 135 for the vast majority of its routeing. Extending the 330 west from Canning Town to the Isle of Dogs would've given more capacity and allowed Spindrift Avenue to keep the link many mobility passengers from the local area and the rest of the Tower Hamlets borough adore. The best thing about Docklands routes that shadow DLR lines is that though passenger patronage is virtually nil in the evenings (weekends buck the trend), should there be disruption with trains passengers are assured a bus service as a backup. Routes 147, 376 and 474 are the best examples of that along with D8. It ironically loads best along the section that it closely follows the Stratford DLR line; between Bow Church and Canary Wharf. Yet TfL wish to displace these journeys, as well as add additional, unnecessary running times to the 108 by arguably taking the bus through a more congested routeing than it is now. Though I initially agree to swap termini with Stratofrd International, I worry about established links particularly at night for the ONLY east London route to cross the river. My fear is that TfL are trying to force what's 'best' for the customer by breaking bus links to telepathise minds to other modes of transport. Far too evident in how long they took in May 2008 to increase the evening and Sunday service on the 108 from every 20 to every 15 mins and using shorter than specified Darts (off route 132). Buses were heaving from Stratford Broadway and would struggle to accept new passengers before the A12, and was commonplace in early evenings and Sundays. All because in those days the DLR from Stratford went through to Lewisham and commuters saw the 108 as the cheaper alternative as well as that of the Jubilee line to North Greenwich. The same tough love is being reintroduced to the 108 in this consultation, and if the planned changes go ahead that will see a shatter to direct bus links from Stratford to North Greenwich. And if TfL are willing to do this to the 108, then I wait in shock and horror to what they plan to do with the 25 and Crossrail, the magical silver travel bullet for east London. In regards to the D7, it's a busy route and by giving it help, it should allow the route to have more capacity at those times - personally, I don't see that as 'being rendered useless'. Other than that, I agree with you on other points.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2016 21:29:09 GMT
If these changes go ahead, which they undoubtedly will, I see some more changes going on South of the Thames. So with the 108 being diverted to Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and new areas of Stratford, I'm presuming we'd see a 129 extension (at last, I hear some of you cry) to Forest Gate via the part of Stratford the 108 formerly served. I think the 129 should run from Greenwich, Cutty Sark to Forest Gate. It would retain its use as a feeder route to North Greenwich then. This is also going off the basis of the would-be Silvertown/Gallions Reach/River crossings in SE/East London being built.
Note: I also thought of extending the 129 to Blackheath, Royal Standard - this would relive Route 108 particularly from Blackheath to North Greenwich as well as retaining links to the areas of Stratford it currently serves. However, I do feel a feeder-style route is useful from the Cutty Sark and I do think TfL would tend to agree (hence, why the 129 has remained in its current form for so long) so I think Greenwich, Cutty Sark to Forest Gate could be what we end up with for the 129 - which would be exciting.
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Post by thesquirrels on Feb 16, 2016 21:45:52 GMT
If these changes go ahead, which they undoubtedly will, I see some more changes going on South of the Thames. So with the 108 being diverted to Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and new areas of Stratford, I'm presuming we'd see a 129 extension (at last, I hear some of you cry) to Forest Gate via the part of Stratford the 108 formerly served. I think the 129 should run from Greenwich, Cutty Sark to Forest Gate. It would retain its use as a feeder route to North Greenwich then. This is also going off the basis of the would-be Silvertown/Gallions Reach/River crossings in SE/East London being built. Note: I also thought of extending the 129 to Blackheath, Royal Standard - this would relive Route 108 particularly from Blackheath to North Greenwich as well as retaining links to the areas of Stratford it currently serves. However, I do feel a feeder-style route is useful from the Cutty Sark and I do think TfL would tend to agree (hence, why the 129 has remained in its current form for so long) so I think Greenwich, Cutty Sark to Forest Gate could be what we end up with for the 129 - which would be exciting. The 129 would, of course, need to revert to single deck operation to allow this to happen. The likelihood of that happening now is questionable if not very slim.
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