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Post by sid on Jan 18, 2017 14:04:15 GMT
Indeed, it really doesn't go far enough TBH. Exactly. This is just a different shade of grey. The case only ruled on whether the First policy went far enough and whether it should recommend drivers should do more to ask buggies to vacate the space. The remit was never to create new regulations or guidelines. For London, I think it is down to TfL to go a step further and implement policy that buggies should be folded when requested. Problem comes when you have a mother with a new born who is also carrying shopping etc with no one to assist. It is really hard to create a policy here that is fair/workable. Wheelchair users should have the priority It's interesting that London's buses have much less space for buggies and wheelchairs than other cities. Madrid buses for example seem to have a decent amount of space designated for parking and even baby/toddler seats with seat belts. On routes where journeys are mainly short hop, perhaps TfL should consider using buses with fewer seats and more mixed use standing/parking areas to avoid conflicts. Dare I mention bendy buses 🤐🙄[/quote] I can't see the fewer seats idea going down well with disabled people, wasn't DDA supposed to improve things for them?
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Post by sid on Jan 18, 2017 14:06:03 GMT
Wheelchair user wins vs buggy at Supreme Court"But what this judgement means is the driver has to make their own decision as to whether the person is being unreasonable in refusing to move, and if they are, he or she has to tell them that they are required to move, and if necessary refuse to move the bus until they shift." Reality is nothing has changed. Bus drivers are just put in an impossible position! Either ban ALL unfolded buggies or accept the current situation, I can't see any other workable solution.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2017 14:16:38 GMT
Wheelchair user wins vs buggy at Supreme Court"But what this judgement means is the driver has to make their own decision as to whether the person is being unreasonable in refusing to move, and if they are, he or she has to tell them that they are required to move, and if necessary refuse to move the bus until they shift." Reality is nothing has changed. Bus drivers are just put in an impossible position! The intent has shifted a tiny bit - "require" rather than "request" - but I agree the end result probably has not changed. I watched the coverage on the lunchtime news and when both Giles Fearnley of First Group and the appellant were claiming a "victory" (of sorts) it was clear to me nothing much has changed. In the mind of lawyers / judges I'm sure they firmly believe the different words have vastly different meanings but, to the layperson, there's little change. This is where the legal mind might be thought to be on another planet but then the law is rather like that at times. What will happen is that campaigners will now get wheelchair users to board buses and if there is an issue over the wheelchair space being occupied they will say "I require the space and you, the driver, must require those in the space to move". The second the driver doesn't do this then another court case will be launched against the bus company and / or contracting authority (e.g. TfL, Council or ITA). The only way round this is for the interior of buses to be changed so there are separate buggy and wheelchair spaces with the latter exclusively reserved at all times for wheelchair users. That, of course, is extremely difficult on TfL spec dual door buses without a huge loss of seats in the low floor area. It's possibly less of an issue outside London where passenger demand is lower and many buses do have separate areas or could be modified internally to cope.
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 18, 2017 16:26:13 GMT
Reality is nothing has changed. Bus drivers are just put in an impossible position! The intent has shifted a tiny bit - "require" rather than "request" - but I agree the end result probably has not changed. I watched the coverage on the lunchtime news and when both Giles Fearnley of First Group and the appellant were claiming a "victory" (of sorts) it was clear to me nothing much has changed. What will happen is that campaigners will now get wheelchair users to board buses and if there is an issue over the wheelchair space being occupied they will say "I require the space and you, the driver, must require those in the space to move". The second the driver doesn't do this then another court case will be launched against the bus company and / or contracting authority (e.g. TfL, Council or ITA). The only way round this is for the interior of buses to be changed so there are separate buggy and wheelchair spaces with the latter exclusively reserved at all time for wheelchair users. That, of course, is extremely difficult on TfL spec dual door buses without a huge loss of seats in the low floor area. It's possibly less of an issue outside London were passenger demand is lower and many buses do have separate areas or could be modified internally to cope. Yes our new Streetlites at Metrobus have separate buggy and wheelchair bay
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Post by snowman on Jan 18, 2017 18:24:58 GMT
The intent has shifted a tiny bit - "require" rather than "request" - but I agree the end result probably has not changed. I watched the coverage on the lunchtime news and when both Giles Fearnley of First Group and the appellant were claiming a "victory" (of sorts) it was clear to me nothing much has changed. What will happen is that campaigners will now get wheelchair users to board buses and if there is an issue over the wheelchair space being occupied they will say "I require the space and you, the driver, must require those in the space to move". The second the driver doesn't do this then another court case will be launched against the bus company and / or contracting authority (e.g. TfL, Council or ITA). The only way round this is for the interior of buses to be changed so there are separate buggy and wheelchair spaces with the latter exclusively reserved at all time for wheelchair users. That, of course, is extremely difficult on TfL spec dual door buses without a huge loss of seats in the low floor area. It's possibly less of an issue outside London were passenger demand is lower and many buses do have separate areas or could be modified internally to cope. Yes our new Streetlites at Metrobus have separate buggy and wheelchair bay The other is many provincial buses have a dual purpose area with 5 tip up seats at the side. It's made clear with stickers that use of the seats is only when area not required. Most TfL buses a decade ago also had at least 2 tip ups (front facing) but these were generally removed, so not strictly dual purpose anymore (on many the lack of handrails discourages standing)
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Post by rambo on Jan 18, 2017 21:35:02 GMT
The intent has shifted a tiny bit - "require" rather than "request" - but I agree the end result probably has not changed. I watched the coverage on the lunchtime news and when both Giles Fearnley of First Group and the appellant were claiming a "victory" (of sorts) it was clear to me nothing much has changed. What will happen is that campaigners will now get wheelchair users to board buses and if there is an issue over the wheelchair space being occupied they will say "I require the space and you, the driver, must require those in the space to move". The second the driver doesn't do this then another court case will be launched against the bus company and / or contracting authority (e.g. TfL, Council or ITA). The only way round this is for the interior of buses to be changed so there are separate buggy and wheelchair spaces with the latter exclusively reserved at all time for wheelchair users. That, of course, is extremely difficult on TfL spec dual door buses without a huge loss of seats in the low floor area. It's possibly less of an issue outside London were passenger demand is lower and many buses do have separate areas or could be modified internally to cope. Yes our new Streetlites at Metrobus have separate buggy and wheelchair bay Bad idea. Just imagine the buggy area is full, you pull up at the next stop and a buggy wants to get on, 'sorry love, no room for the buggy'. 'but I can go in the wheelchair area'. 'your not allowed' 'f*ck you im getting on'. The court ruling, imo, is a disgrace. Just makes the drivers job even harder, yet again.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2017 23:07:19 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness.
This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies.
The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process.
Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 18, 2017 23:43:44 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness. This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies. The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process. Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user. Agree entirely - I mean how on earth did people manage with buggies before low buses were introduced and yet they've never had it so easy!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 0:30:19 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness. This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies. The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process. Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user. Agree entirely - I mean how on earth did people manage with buggies before low buses were introduced and yet they've never had it so easy! Exactly. They were pre-folded as the bus arrived and stored under the stairs. Simple. But now, not so,. Try preaching etiquette to the folk of SE London like this, and I'd anticipate a surge in code red calls.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 19, 2017 1:47:12 GMT
Agree entirely - I mean how on earth did people manage with buggies before low buses were introduced and yet they've never had it so easy! Exactly. They were pre-folded as the bus arrived and stored under the stairs. Simple. But now, not so,. Try preaching etiquette to the folk of SE London like this, and I'd anticipate a surge in code red calls. Indeed or even in the rack that was behind the stairs like on the L class Olympians. My mum had to fold it and carry shopping when I was young so why should today's parents be any different.
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Post by sid on Jan 19, 2017 8:06:37 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness. This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies. The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process. Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user. Rightly or wrongly people were encouraged to bring buggies on board and I don't think we're going to get the jeany back into the bottle now. The trend of bringing buggies on through the rear doors in London has caused more problems than it has solved. Some drivers will strictly limit the number of buggies whilst others just sit there totally oblivious to how many buggies are bought on board. I'm open minded about which side is to blame, some wheelchair users are quite capable of being belligerent and I did read somewhere that the man behind this latest court case is quite capable of walking and is just hellbent on confrontation. I don't see how any number of court cases is going to change anything and we've just got to make the best of a bad situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 9:51:21 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness. This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies. The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process. Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user. Rightly or wrongly people were encouraged to bring buggies on board and I don't think we're going to get the jeany back into the bottle now. The trend of bringing buggies on through the rear doors in London has caused more problems than it has solved. Some drivers will strictly limit the number of buggies whilst others just sit there totally oblivious to how many buggies are bought on board. I'm open minded about which side is to blame, some wheelchair users are quite capable of being belligerent and I did read somewhere that the man behind this latest court case is quite capable of walking and is just hellbent on confrontation. I don't see how any number of court cases is going to change anything and we've just got to make the best of a bad situation. Totally agree about the belligerence of some wheelchair users. I know of one man, who can walk freely, decided to place himself in a chair and caused issues deliberately. You're quite right, there's no turning back now !!
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Post by nickfreckle on Jan 19, 2017 10:04:01 GMT
The trend of bringing buggies on through the rear doors in London has caused more problems than it has solved. Ain't it just. had a woman with a buggy at Deptford Bridge a couple of days ago, ping her buggy in to the rear doors just as they were closing - and I got a mouthful of abuse. I saw her as I pulled in to the stop - but she was far enough away from the stop, on her phone, for me to reasonably think she wasn't even waiting for a bus. People alighted, I checked the mirror and monitor, it was clear, so pressed the door close button. The beeping started and I thought the doors had gone funny, and when I looked, her buggy was half in and half out the bus. She made no attempt prior to shoving her buggy in the doors to get my attention to signal she was so much as wanting to get on at all, let alone get on through the rear doors. It does my nut in where buggies think they have an entitlement to go through the rear without so much as nod to the driver to suggest that that is what they are going to do.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 19, 2017 10:23:38 GMT
The trend of bringing buggies on through the rear doors in London has caused more problems than it has solved. Ain't it just. had a woman with a buggy at Deptford Bridge a couple of days ago, ping her buggy in to the rear doors just as they were closing - and I got a mouthful of abuse. I saw her as I pulled in to the stop - but she was far enough away from the stop, on her phone, for me to reasonably think she wasn't even waiting for a bus. People alighted, I checked the mirror and monitor, it was clear, so pressed the door close button. The beeping started and I thought the doors had gone funny, and when I looked, her buggy was half in and half out the bus. She made no attempt prior to shoving her buggy in the doors to get my attention to signal she was so much as wanting to get on at all, let alone get on through the rear doors. It does my nut in where buggies think they have an entitlement to go through the rear without so much as nod to the driver to suggest that that is what they are going to do. Personally, no one bar a wheelchair user should be allowed through the rear doors. If your buggy is too big to fit down the aisle if a bus, then fold it. As ever the driver can't win regardless.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 19, 2017 10:33:16 GMT
Being old fashioned, I find buggy use on buses madness. This craze started out only because it was made law that buses had to be able to carry disabled people , not buggies. The silliness I've seen between adults, sometimes literally using the buggies with infants inside as battering rams to force their way into a gap, striking legs in the process. Bearing in mind the discrimination angle, I would always back the wheelchair user over buggy user. Rightly or wrongly people were encouraged to bring buggies on board and I don't think we're going to get the jeany back into the bottle now. The trend of bringing buggies on through the rear doors in London has caused more problems than it has solved. Some drivers will strictly limit the number of buggies whilst others just sit there totally oblivious to how many buggies are bought on board. I'm open minded about which side is to blame, some wheelchair users are quite capable of being belligerent and I did read somewhere that the man behind this latest court case is quite capable of walking and is just hellbent on confrontation. I don't see how any number of court cases is going to change anything and we've just got to make the best of a bad situation. No doubt there are some idiotic wheelchair users but for those who are decent people and can't get out of the chair, selfish parents with buggies that refuse to move are a real obstacle to their daily lives. It's bad enough that the transport network in London is still some way off being disabled friendly due to a number of reasons without disabled users being unable to board a bus and settle down into their designated area because some selfish people can't fold a buggy - they don't know how lucky they are given all our parents had to lug buggies and shopping onto buses that wern't low floor and had no space for an unfolded buggy.
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