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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 7, 2016 23:45:17 GMT
Well if I don't go to school due to insufficient funds for travel, then what else will happen - I can't get a job for starters as I'd be to young and it's extremely doubtful I'm going to sit at home staring at four walls all day. I've not said its some sort of 'right' either - I just think it's wrong to further deprive the poor so please don't presume so. And as already stated - those in other poorer areas in the country take Parts of Liverpool and Manchester, what do they do? Sit at home looking at four views. I used to work in a school and each year the year 7's were worse behaved (I.e a higher majority). Not all, but some of the behaviour on buses especially in South London is disgusting. TfL says it will withdraw the free travel for perpetrators of crime/ASB - it would be very interesting to know how many free cards are in circulation and out of those, in the last year, how many were withdrawn due to the aforementioned reasons. I suspect the number to be very low. I'm not sure how old you are, but perhaps you've not lived in a London where free travel for children was the norm - hence you see it as "immemorial" the quite plain fact that it is not. I think someone needs to do a FOI request to find out how many passes have been cancelled due to behaviour etc sicne we have had the youth free zip passes.
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Post by Red Dragon on Apr 8, 2016 10:10:15 GMT
I can see the logic behind free travel for kids in that it should reduce traffic at school times but i do feel sorry for the fare paying passengers who get left behind because of a full bus. I still think restrictions should be imposed like certain hours on a school day that it can be used. I agree the free travel does cause problems with them being lazy and going 1 or 2 stops! I also agree that the amount of cards taken away for bad behaviour must be extremely low, if a driver were to take a card it would no doubt be more paperwork a complaint for a teen being left behind and 'vulnerable' also getting the card off them would be difficult. When would these restrictions be? I do agree with you though. Those who behave badly on buses should have their concession withdrawn. If they get mugged, that's their problem.
So then more school routes could be provided rather than removing free travel. More school routes would help the situation but then the money could be better spent elsewhere. Most children are quite capable of walking or cycling to and from school, as indeed I used to do myself, and the exercise does them good but they use buses just because they are free. I would say a few. Cycling to school is downright dangerous, and the distances can be quite far.
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Post by sid on Apr 8, 2016 12:54:14 GMT
I can see the logic behind free travel for kids in that it should reduce traffic at school times but i do feel sorry for the fare paying passengers who get left behind because of a full bus. I still think restrictions should be imposed like certain hours on a school day that it can be used. I agree the free travel does cause problems with them being lazy and going 1 or 2 stops! I also agree that the amount of cards taken away for bad behaviour must be extremely low, if a driver were to take a card it would no doubt be more paperwork a complaint for a teen being left behind and 'vulnerable' also getting the card off them would be difficult. When would these restrictions be? I do agree with you though. Those who behave badly on buses should have their concession withdrawn. If they get mugged, that's their problem.
More school routes would help the situation but then the money could be better spent elsewhere. Most children are quite capable of walking or cycling to and from school, as indeed I used to do myself, and the exercise does them good but they use buses just because they are free. I would say a few. Cycling to school is downright dangerous, and the distances can be quite far.
You say cycling is "downright dangerous" whilst others on here lambast Boris for trying to make it safer!!
Funnily enough plenty of kids cycled to my school, I remember the bike sheds where we went behind for a crafty cigarette
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Post by londonbusboy on Apr 8, 2016 14:46:13 GMT
And as already stated - those in other poorer areas in the country take Parts of Liverpool and Manchester, what do they do? Sit at home looking at four views. I used to work in a school and each year the year 7's were worse behaved (I.e a higher majority). Not all, but some of the behaviour on buses especially in South London is disgusting. TfL says it will withdraw the free travel for perpetrators of crime/ASB - it would be very interesting to know how many free cards are in circulation and out of those, in the last year, how many were withdrawn due to the aforementioned reasons. I suspect the number to be very low. I'm not sure how old you are, but perhaps you've not lived in a London where free travel for children was the norm - hence you see it as "immemorial" the quite plain fact that it is not. I think someone needs to do a FOI request to find out how many passes have been cancelled due to behaviour etc sicne we have had the youth free zip passes. The bulk of withdrawn passes will be the ones with scratched off photo or expired dates.
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Post by londonbusboy on Apr 8, 2016 14:53:38 GMT
I can see the logic behind free travel for kids in that it should reduce traffic at school times but i do feel sorry for the fare paying passengers who get left behind because of a full bus. I still think restrictions should be imposed like certain hours on a school day that it can be used. I agree the free travel does cause problems with them being lazy and going 1 or 2 stops! I also agree that the amount of cards taken away for bad behaviour must be extremely low, if a driver were to take a card it would no doubt be more paperwork a complaint for a teen being left behind and 'vulnerable' also getting the card off them would be difficult. When would these restrictions be? I do agree with you though. Those who behave badly on buses should have their concession withdrawn. If they get mugged, that's their problem.
More school routes would help the situation but then the money could be better spent elsewhere. Most children are quite capable of walking or cycling to and from school, as indeed I used to do myself, and the exercise does them good but they use buses just because they are free. I would say a few. Cycling to school is downright dangerous, and the distances can be quite far. If they were restricted to be used between say 7am - 9am and 3pm - 5pm Mon-Fri i know this would cause issues for college/sixth form students who have free periods etc Perhaps restrict Secondary school aged users to select times? but certainly shouldn't be free travel on weekends. It would lower the anti social behaviour, going 1 or 2 stops, or them thinking oh shall we get this bus? ...... yeah just for the sake of doing something. There are probably many other factors that i havent thought of that could effect if restrictions were implemented but i dont want this to turn into a massive debate attacking me, it was only an idea!
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Post by sid on Apr 8, 2016 15:02:52 GMT
When would these restrictions be? I do agree with you though. Those who behave badly on buses should have their concession withdrawn. If they get mugged, that's their problem.
I would say a few. Cycling to school is downright dangerous, and the distances can be quite far. If they were restricted to be used between say 7am - 9am and 3pm - 5pm Mon-Fri i know this would cause issues for college/sixth form students who have free periods etc Perhaps restrict Secondary school aged users to select times? but certainly shouldn't be free travel on weekends. It would lower the anti social behaviour, going 1 or 2 stops, or them thinking oh shall we get this bus? ...... yeah just for the sake of doing something. There are probably many other factors that i havent thought of that could effect if restrictions were implemented but i dont want this to turn into a massive debate attacking me, it was only an idea! You make some good points although restricting them to 7-9am doesn't solve the overcrowding in the morning peak.
And yes a lot of groups of kids in the evening think for example, instead of hanging around in the cold in the evening why not jump on the 96 to Bluewater where it's nice and warm, if the security turf as out for being a nuisance we'll just jump on another 96 back, after all it's free
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Post by londonbusboy on Apr 8, 2016 15:07:30 GMT
If they were restricted to be used between say 7am - 9am and 3pm - 5pm Mon-Fri i know this would cause issues for college/sixth form students who have free periods etc Perhaps restrict Secondary school aged users to select times? but certainly shouldn't be free travel on weekends. It would lower the anti social behaviour, going 1 or 2 stops, or them thinking oh shall we get this bus? ...... yeah just for the sake of doing something. There are probably many other factors that i havent thought of that could effect if restrictions were implemented but i dont want this to turn into a massive debate attacking me, it was only an idea! You make some good points although restricting them to 7-9am doesn't solve the overcrowding in the morning peak.
And yes a lot of groups of kids in the evening think for example, instead of hanging around in the cold in the evening why not jump on the 96 to Bluewater where it's nice and warm, if the security turf as out for being a nuisance we'll just jump on another 96 back, after all it's free
Exactly, and those times were just quickly plucked out of my head not a concrete suggestion
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Post by vjaska on Apr 8, 2016 15:33:19 GMT
If they were restricted to be used between say 7am - 9am and 3pm - 5pm Mon-Fri i know this would cause issues for college/sixth form students who have free periods etc Perhaps restrict Secondary school aged users to select times? but certainly shouldn't be free travel on weekends. It would lower the anti social behaviour, going 1 or 2 stops, or them thinking oh shall we get this bus? ...... yeah just for the sake of doing something. There are probably many other factors that i havent thought of that could effect if restrictions were implemented but i dont want this to turn into a massive debate attacking me, it was only an idea! You make some good points although restricting them to 7-9am doesn't solve the overcrowding in the morning peak.
And yes a lot of groups of kids in the evening think for example, instead of hanging around in the cold in the evening why not jump on the 96 to Bluewater where it's nice and warm, if the security turf as out for being a nuisance we'll just jump on another 96 back, after all it's free
But by imposing a restriction, your effectively saying that the poorest children who rely on the free pass to get around can't travel on the bus. I'm no massive fan of kids on buses but I just don't think it's reasonable to just restrict the poorest kids in society as to when they can travel. If that was imposed when I was growing up, then I wouldn't be able to board the bus because money was tight enough as it is.
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Post by RT3062 on Apr 8, 2016 15:35:53 GMT
You make some good points although restricting them to 7-9am doesn't solve the overcrowding in the morning peak.
And yes a lot of groups of kids in the evening think for example, instead of hanging around in the cold in the evening why not jump on the 96 to Bluewater where it's nice and warm, if the security turf as out for being a nuisance we'll just jump on another 96 back, after all it's free
Exactly, and those times were just quickly plucked out of my head not a concrete suggestion i was thinking mon - friday 0600-1800.i know when i was at school we used to get a pass if we were traveling outside school hours ie sports trainning after school .maybe could be an idea. There was a few routes in romford i did that became mobile youth clubs.the 103 was bad for this
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Post by Paul on Apr 8, 2016 15:41:53 GMT
I went to school in the Medway Towns and I had a pass that entitled me to free travel between home and school. It was effectively valid only on the school bus service that ran between my home and school (although that didn't stop me trying to use it between, say, school and Chatham on those times I got out early! Most drivers allowed it - it was getting from Chatham back home that could be more problematic but I digress.....)
Anyway, it shouldn't be beyond the Oyster card system to similarly limit school kids to a certain service or certain area. I see no reason travel to and from school shouldn't be free but let's introduce a charge at evenings and weekends even if it's only a token 50p. I think it's important for kids to pay some sort of fare because with the current system they are of college age before the thought of having to pay a fare becomes reality and many resist this reality by attempting to ride for nothing simply because that's all they've ever known. Introducing a token 50p fare shouldn't be too distressing for the majority and the funds raised could go towards funding the free school travel
I think it's important not to just remove the free travel scheme altogether. It surely saves the average family a great deal of money but equally I don't think it's viable for the free travel to be in place all the time. I wouldn't make any distinction between term time and holidays though. For one, school holidays often don't match up meaning people are bound to miss out and secondly it comes back to not removing the scheme altogether. People need to be able to look at it and think that it's fair enough to remove the free travel at weekends and evenings but at least it stays at all times during the day regardless of holidays
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Post by sid on Apr 8, 2016 15:43:21 GMT
You make some good points although restricting them to 7-9am doesn't solve the overcrowding in the morning peak.
And yes a lot of groups of kids in the evening think for example, instead of hanging around in the cold in the evening why not jump on the 96 to Bluewater where it's nice and warm, if the security turf as out for being a nuisance we'll just jump on another 96 back, after all it's free
But by imposing a restriction, your effectively saying that the poorest children who rely on the free pass to get around can't travel on the bus. I'm no massive fan of kids on buses but I just don't think it's reasonable to just restrict the poorest kids in society as to when they can travel. If that was imposed when I was growing up, then I wouldn't be able to board the bus because money was tight enough as it is. I'd rather just go the whole hogg and remove free child travel altogether, nowhere else in the UK has it and it was just a typical Ken Livingstone gimmick with no thought about the cost or the long term implications.
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Post by sid on Apr 8, 2016 15:50:10 GMT
I went to school in the Medway Towns and I had a pass that entitled me to free travel between home and school. It was effectively valid only on the school bus service that ran between my home and school (although that didn't stop me trying to use it between, say, school and Chatham on those times I got out early! Most drivers allowed it - it was getting from Chatham back home that could be more problematic but I digress.....) Anyway, it shouldn't be beyond the Oyster card system to similarly limit school kids to a certain service or certain area. I see no reason travel to and from school shouldn't be free but let's introduce a charge at evenings and weekends even if it's only a token 50p. I think it's important for kids to pay some sort of fare because with the current system they are of college age before the thought of having to pay a fare becomes reality and many resist this reality by attempting to ride for nothing simply because that's all they've ever known. Introducing a token 50p fare shouldn't be too distressing for the majority and the funds raised could go towards funding the free school travel I think it's important not to just remove the free travel scheme altogether. It surely saves the average family a great deal of money but equally I don't think it's viable for the free travel to be in place all the time. I wouldn't make any distinction between term time and holidays though. For one, school holidays often don't match up meaning people are bound to miss out and secondly it comes back to not removing the scheme altogether. People need to be able to look at it and think that it's fair enough to remove the free travel at weekends and evenings but at least it stays at all times during the day regardless of holidays Yes that is all very reasonable, I have no objection in principle to free travel to and from school for those who genuinely need but the problem is how to make the distinction between those and the lazy kids who travel just travel a short distance just because it's free when they are quite capable of walking.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 8, 2016 17:08:13 GMT
I went to school in the Medway Towns and I had a pass that entitled me to free travel between home and school. It was effectively valid only on the school bus service that ran between my home and school (although that didn't stop me trying to use it between, say, school and Chatham on those times I got out early! Most drivers allowed it - it was getting from Chatham back home that could be more problematic but I digress.....) Anyway, it shouldn't be beyond the Oyster card system to similarly limit school kids to a certain service or certain area. I see no reason travel to and from school shouldn't be free but let's introduce a charge at evenings and weekends even if it's only a token 50p. I think it's important for kids to pay some sort of fare because with the current system they are of college age before the thought of having to pay a fare becomes reality and many resist this reality by attempting to ride for nothing simply because that's all they've ever known. Introducing a token 50p fare shouldn't be too distressing for the majority and the funds raised could go towards funding the free school travel I think it's important not to just remove the free travel scheme altogether. It surely saves the average family a great deal of money but equally I don't think it's viable for the free travel to be in place all the time. I wouldn't make any distinction between term time and holidays though. For one, school holidays often don't match up meaning people are bound to miss out and secondly it comes back to not removing the scheme altogether. People need to be able to look at it and think that it's fair enough to remove the free travel at weekends and evenings but at least it stays at all times during the day regardless of holidays I think that's a sensible idea - a reduced fare of the amount you suggested in the hours you suggested seems quite fair - although free travel doesn't exist in the rest of country, reduced fares for kids do so I could see it working. Removing free travel altogether would be a backwards step and would increase financial pressure on poorer families.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 8, 2016 21:23:21 GMT
I think thou freedom passes should be removed from working adults till they retire and come in line with the rest of the country, ie valid on buses after 9 am. Let's make some more money so we don't have to keep raising fares for everybody else.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 8, 2016 21:29:47 GMT
I think thou freedom passes should be removed from working adults till they retire and come in line with the rest of the country, ie valid on buses after 9 am. Let's make some more money so we don't have to keep raising fares for everybody else. Forsooth I espie hordes of angry pensioners and people over 60 hunting the house of "Southlondonbus". Verily I fear a lynching is in prospect for Master Southlondonbus once the hordes have discovered him.
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