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Post by enviroPB on Mar 23, 2016 13:55:34 GMT
In December 2005 route 474 was extended from Beckton to Manor Park to add extra capacity along High Streets North & South, to ease pressure off route 101. Ever since then I've always known the 2 bus routes scheduled to appear at the same time, all day every day! The only time they are scheduled to give an even service is on Sunday shopping times. You are guaranteed that at other times, be it 5am or 5pm, to wait 12-15 mins for one bus, both appear and they play 'leap frog' along their 3 mile shared routing. It is also important to say that both routes are run by different operators so the logic of providing an even service is lost on them. Can anyone else please tell me then if you know of a similar situation; 2 routes of similar or exact frequency sharing the same trunk road but those buses always depart or arrive together (Must be different operators!!). I suspect routes 171 & 172 act similarly from New Cross - Brockley Rise but they are not my local routes. Thanks in advance for your participation.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 23, 2016 14:14:55 GMT
This is a standard failing of TfL's approach to the bus network. They see little or no value in providing equal headways. One classic example is the 212 and 275 between Wood St and St James St Stn. While the headways are not strictly compatible buses often run together meaning 10-12 min waits at Wood St for a bus to the Central. It was even worse when the frequencies were lower when I lived down that end of E17.
The other local example that has gone from excellent to useless is Walthamstow Central to Crooked Billet / Chingford Mount. When the 97, 97A (357) and 215 were all run by Capital Citybus there was a properly balanced headway off peak and evenings / Sundays. Now there is no co-ordination at all meaning bunched buses and gaps. Even when you add in the 34 you can still get 4 buses leaving in the space of 2 minutes in the evening and then nothing for 10-12 buses. That's beyond useless when you consider the volume of buses running. In the evenings there is much less excuse given the relative lack of traffic congestion. I accept it can be very difficult during the day in London because traffic conditions cause delays and bunching regardless of the timetable.
It's one of those things I feel quite strongly about because in Tyne and Wear, where I come from, the old pre deregulation network was very carefully designed to give properly even headways on shared sections of route in both directions and at all times of the day. Traffic conditions were much kinder back then which meant the timetable could be adhered to so you got a decent service even if some routes were only hourly or half hourly. Now it's an utter shambles but then there is no guiding mind and most commercial operators are only concerned about getting to the stop first not about a decent service over an hour which would encourage more people to travel overall.
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Post by Nathan on Mar 23, 2016 14:27:41 GMT
In December 2005 route 474 was extended from Beckton to Manor Park to add extra capacity along High Streets North & South, to ease pressure off route 101. Ever since then I've always known the 2 bus routes scheduled to appear at the same time, all day every day! The only time they are scheduled to give an even service is on Sunday shopping times. You are guaranteed that at other times, be it 5am or 5pm, to wait 12-15 mins for one bus, both appear and they play 'leap frog' along their 3 mile shared routing. It is also important to say that both routes are run by different operators so the logic of providing an even service is lost on them. Can anyone else please tell me then if you know of a similar situation; 2 routes of similar or exact frequency sharing the same trunk road but those buses always depart or arrive together (Must be different operators!!). I suspect routes 171 & 172 act similarly from New Cross - Brockley Rise but they are not my local routes.Thanks in advance for your participation. The 171/172 do act like this actually. They almost always arrive and depart in pairs. Annoyingly around midday they'll be a large 20 min gap usually on the 172, sometimes both (I'm guessing due to a meal relief at Elephant & Castle for the 172). I'm not sure about the 36/436. Sometimes they will be a large gap in the 36 service from NX, but the frequent 436 accounts for this anyway. Same with the 53/453 and 21/321 (the 321 is pretty bad for large gap at the New Cross end, even before the Lewisham Gateway works)
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 23, 2016 15:07:29 GMT
This is a standard failing of TfL's approach to the bus network. They see little or no value in providing equal headways. One classic example is the 212 and 275 between Wood St and St James St Stn. While the headways are not strictly compatible buses often run together meaning 10-12 min waits at Wood St for a bus to the Central. It was even worse when the frequencies were lower when I lived down that end of E17. The other local example that has gone from excellent to useless is Walthamstow Central to Crooked Billet / Chingford Mount. When the 97, 97A (357) and 215 were all run by Capital Citybus there was a properly balanced headway off peak and evenings / Sundays. Now there is no co-ordination at all meaning bunched buses and gaps. Even when you add in the 34 you can still get 4 buses leaving in the space of 2 minutes in the evening and then nothing for 10-12 buses. That's beyond useless when you consider the volume of buses running. In the evenings there is much less excuse given the relative lack of traffic congestion. I accept it can be very difficult during the day in London because traffic conditions cause delays and bunching regardless of the timetable. It's one of those things I feel quite strongly about because in Tyne and Wear, where I come from, the old pre deregulation network was very carefully designed to give properly even headways on shared sections of route in both directions and at all times of the day. Traffic conditions were much kinder back then which meant the timetable could be adhered to so you got a decent service even if some routes were only hourly or half hourly. Now it's an utter shambles but then there is no guiding mind and most commercial operators are only concerned about getting to the stop first not about a decent service over an hour which would encourage more people to travel overall.That's the bit I don't get; why do operators think that underpinning of another service or route would mean a better service for the customer? If I've missed either the 101 or 474, I assume they've come as a bunch (which they almost always do!) and I walk for some of my journey in the hopes to complete it quicker on foot. This is particular at night when routes tend to run earlier so the headway is greater. If I knew I would be waiting 8 minutes for 1 bus instead of 15 minutes for 2 bus routes I would be a happy customer, not potentially grumbling late at night at an uneven service. And another thing is reliability for both routes in a situation like this. Bus A arrives, you board it and for a sizable amount of your journey, the bus is close to capacity. Bus A is most likely running late. Bus B then overtakes Bus A and continues to be on time, but without as many passenger numbers as Bus A. The generalisation is deliberate because no matter how much a company sets out to be Bus A or Bus B, buses being 'first to the post' is beyond their control. All it takes is a lost passenger asking for directions on the bus that's ahead to lose the lead over the other bus route eager to overtake. I assume we're just bums on seats and not passengers to them I suppose.
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 23, 2016 15:24:27 GMT
In December 2005 route 474 was extended from Beckton to Manor Park to add extra capacity along High Streets North & South, to ease pressure off route 101. Ever since then I've always known the 2 bus routes scheduled to appear at the same time, all day every day! The only time they are scheduled to give an even service is on Sunday shopping times. You are guaranteed that at other times, be it 5am or 5pm, to wait 12-15 mins for one bus, both appear and they play 'leap frog' along their 3 mile shared routing. It is also important to say that both routes are run by different operators so the logic of providing an even service is lost on them. Can anyone else please tell me then if you know of a similar situation; 2 routes of similar or exact frequency sharing the same trunk road but those buses always depart or arrive together (Must be different operators!!). I suspect routes 171 & 172 act similarly from New Cross - Brockley Rise but they are not my local routes.Thanks in advance for your participation. The 171/172 do act like this actually. They almost always arrive and depart in pairs. Annoyingly around midday they'll be a large 20 min gap usually on the 172, sometimes both (I'm guessing due to a meal relief at Elephant & Castle for the 172). I'm not sure about the 36/436. Sometimes they will be a large gap in the 36 service from NX, but the frequent 436 accounts for this anyway. Same with the 53/453 and 21/321 (the 321 is pretty bad for large gap at the New Cross end, even before the Lewisham Gateway works) I'm surprised TfL haven't opened a park for all the drivers who swap over at Elephant & Castle to have a proper picnic with amount of meal reliefs there! You're bending the rules slightly with the 436/36 and 321/21 as they're GAL owned; but I do accept your point as more efforts could be made for them to run in conjunction with each other. The 53 and 453 combo I find the most annoying in SE London. It's normally late at night when I wait for those 2 routes; in the rain or cold wind. I'm sometimes a snob not opting to get on a bus if it's full; I do that for both routes thinking "surely an empty bus is round the corner". In this order: I let both buses go, check times on my bus app for the next bus and cry on the inside as I wait double the time as both buses are scheduled to come together. I then maybe cry some more lool.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 23, 2016 15:57:39 GMT
In Brixton, the 2, 415 & 432 generally arrive together, more so when Arriva were in control of all three routes. The 109 & 250 also used to follow each other before the 109 moved to Abellio
The 35, 45 & 345 generally arrive together and hav been for years regardless of operator, usually with more than one 345 turning up too lol
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Post by sid on Mar 23, 2016 16:19:58 GMT
In December 2005 route 474 was extended from Beckton to Manor Park to add extra capacity along High Streets North & South, to ease pressure off route 101. Ever since then I've always known the 2 bus routes scheduled to appear at the same time, all day every day! The only time they are scheduled to give an even service is on Sunday shopping times. You are guaranteed that at other times, be it 5am or 5pm, to wait 12-15 mins for one bus, both appear and they play 'leap frog' along their 3 mile shared routing. It is also important to say that both routes are run by different operators so the logic of providing an even service is lost on them. Can anyone else please tell me then if you know of a similar situation; 2 routes of similar or exact frequency sharing the same trunk road but those buses always depart or arrive together (Must be different operators!!). I suspect routes 171 & 172 act similarly from New Cross - Brockley Rise but they are not my local routes. Thanks in advance for your participation. Probably loads of examples but off the top of my head the N21 and 321 at night both of which are x30min midweek but instead of a nice even x15min headway both run within a few minutes of each other and the 36 and 436 which run at different headways so there's no chance of an even headway between NX and Paddington.
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Post by 6HP502C on Mar 23, 2016 16:29:11 GMT
This is a standard failing of TfL's approach to the bus network. They see little or no value in providing equal headways. One classic example is the 212 and 275 between Wood St and St James St Stn. While the headways are not strictly compatible buses often run together meaning 10-12 min waits at Wood St for a bus to the Central. It was even worse when the frequencies were lower when I lived down that end of E17. It's not so much TfL policy as the bus drivers themselves - many will happily wait for a "leader" so they have less work to do. During the day, it's impossible to regulate the gap between parallel high frequency routes anyway - forces of nature dictate that buses will bunch due to multiple dynamic factors. I personally worked on schemes where it was requested parallel routes are interworked as much as possible - but with differing headways and mid contract schedule changes, it's difficult to keep it going long term.
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Post by sid on Mar 23, 2016 16:30:50 GMT
The 171/172 do act like this actually. They almost always arrive and depart in pairs. Annoyingly around midday they'll be a large 20 min gap usually on the 172, sometimes both (I'm guessing due to a meal relief at Elephant & Castle for the 172). I'm not sure about the 36/436. Sometimes they will be a large gap in the 36 service from NX, but the frequent 436 accounts for this anyway. Same with the 53/453 and 21/321 (the 321 is pretty bad for large gap at the New Cross end, even before the Lewisham Gateway works) I'm surprised TfL haven't opened a park for all the drivers who swap over at Elephant & Castle to have a proper picnic with amount of meal reliefs there! You're bending the rules slightly with the 436/36 and 321/21 as they're GAL owned; but I do accept your point as more efforts could be made for them to run in conjunction with each other. The 53 and 453 combo I find the most annoying in SE London. It's normally late at night when I wait for those 2 routes; in the rain or cold wind. I'm sometimes a snob not opting to get on a bus if it's full; I do that for both routes thinking "surely an empty bus is round the corner". In this order: I let both buses go, check times on my bus app for the next bus and cry on the inside as I wait double the time as both buses are scheduled to come together. I then maybe cry some more lool. I'm not sure that Elephant & Castle is the best place for a picnic Don't WL drivers have use of the Bakerloo Line depot facilities?
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Post by First Hayes on Mar 23, 2016 16:55:19 GMT
We Do Indeed
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 23, 2016 18:32:45 GMT
In December 2005 route 474 was extended from Beckton to Manor Park to add extra capacity along High Streets North & South, to ease pressure off route 101. Ever since then I've always known the 2 bus routes scheduled to appear at the same time, all day every day! The only time they are scheduled to give an even service is on Sunday shopping times. You are guaranteed that at other times, be it 5am or 5pm, to wait 12-15 mins for one bus, both appear and they play 'leap frog' along their 3 mile shared routing. It is also important to say that both routes are run by different operators so the logic of providing an even service is lost on them. Can anyone else please tell me then if you know of a similar situation; 2 routes of similar or exact frequency sharing the same trunk road but those buses always depart or arrive together (Must be different operators!!). I suspect routes 171 & 172 act similarly from New Cross - Brockley Rise but they are not my local routes. Thanks in advance for your participation. Probably loads of examples but off the top of my head the N21 and 321 at night both of which are x30min midweek but instead of a nice even x15min headway both run within a few minutes of each other and the 36 and 436 which run at different headways so there's no chance of an even headway between NX and Paddington. Night buses are a special case as their start times are purposely constructed to be in line with train/tube/DLR services once they've finished for the day. The point is further illustrated on Sundays with routes running late into the early morning (N5, N8, N20, N91 spring to mind) as there are late starts on the other transport services. The case then comes for 24 hour routes to be worked around that to cater for night routes that follow train lines into town; as opposed to 24 hr routes which act as a filler getting people to/from home. But the problem with an even headway at night is the 170% user increase on the Night Bus network since 2000. It's just pointless to ask a high frequency route to interwork with a low frequency one. Illustrative example: a 6 minute headway on the 25 at night to interwork with the 2bph N86.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 18:54:05 GMT
208/320 is a good example between Bromley Common & Catford. Esp on Sundays. I often see them running together.
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Post by sid on Mar 23, 2016 18:59:25 GMT
Probably loads of examples but off the top of my head the N21 and 321 at night both of which are x30min midweek but instead of a nice even x15min headway both run within a few minutes of each other and the 36 and 436 which run at different headways so there's no chance of an even headway between NX and Paddington. Night buses are a special case as their start times are purposely constructed to be in line with train/tube/DLR services once they've finished for the day. The point is further illustrated on Sundays with routes running late into the early morning (N5, N8, N20, N91 spring to mind) as there are late starts on the other transport services. The case then comes for 24 hour routes to be worked around that to cater for night routes that follow train lines into town; as opposed to 24 hr routes which act as a filler getting people to/from home. But the problem with an even headway at night is the 170% user increase on the Night Bus network since 2000. It's just pointless to ask a high frequency route to interwork with a low frequency one. Illustrative example: a 6 minute headway on the 25 at night to interwork with the 2bph N86. I've never heard of that before, how does that work on the N21? The N5 and N20 are in effect tube replacement routes. There's no reason the N21 and 321 cannot be better coordinated Sun-Thursday night.
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Post by T.R. on Mar 23, 2016 19:20:20 GMT
The Rosebery Avenue - Shaftesbury Avenue - Piccadilly corridor often has us 38s duelling with 19s (the latter always win). Depending on which part, a 14 or 341 will join the fray. Case in point:
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Post by bengady3 on Mar 23, 2016 19:20:28 GMT
197/176 Penge to Dulwich Library always the 176 and 197 neck on neck
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