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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 5, 2016 19:48:54 GMT
For buses, lorries and coaches, the extension is London wide rather than within the North & South Circular Roads so by my reckoning, that means everything bus wise needs to meet Euro VI standards by 2020 I wonder if this will delay any upcoming tender results as well as the fact routes recently retained with buses younger than Euro6 such as the 86 and 57 have their contracts going beyond 2020 now. I see a few routes having mid contract upgrades because of this.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 5, 2016 20:46:05 GMT
For buses, lorries and coaches, the extension is London wide rather than within the North & South Circular Roads so by my reckoning, that means everything bus wise needs to meet Euro VI standards by 2020 I wonder if this will delay any upcoming tender results as well as the fact routes recently retained with buses younger than Euro6 such as the 86 and 57 have their contracts going beyond 2020 now. I see a few routes having mid contract upgrades because of this. Indeed it could happen. The other option they have is to upgrade Euro IV & V vehicles to Euro VI which would allow the existing vehicles to continue. Does anyone know if the £100 charge for non complient vehicles will be on top of the £200 LEZ charge?
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Post by snowman on Jul 6, 2016 5:29:49 GMT
I wonder if this will delay any upcoming tender results as well as the fact routes recently retained with buses younger than Euro6 such as the 86 and 57 have their contracts going beyond 2020 now. I see a few routes having mid contract upgrades because of this. Indeed it could happen. The other option they have is to upgrade Euro IV & V vehicles to Euro VI which would allow the existing vehicles to continue. ? There is a reference in previous new mayor announcement about upgrading 3000 buses EuroVI has been around 2-3 years (but some continued to be delivered as euroV for a while) so about 1200 euroVI so far. There is currently about 800 new buses per year, so around another 3000 will be replaced by 2020 expansion. That suggests could be problems for remaining approx 1000 buses, although TfL could always cut network down a bit (likely where it duplicates crossrail or northern line extension) or have an upgrade splurge (like 2002 prior to congestion charge). Not just routes 86 and 57, affects virtually every contract that started after September 2015 with existing buses, as they will need upgrade to finish the contract. Some contracts ending late 2020 might get early replacement rather than upgrades. Yes I agree likely to delay tender awards that were proposed with existing buses, (whilst upgrade is appraised), but shouldn't delay bids with ULEZ compliant new buses.
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Post by M1104 on Jul 6, 2016 8:36:18 GMT
I wonder if this will delay any upcoming tender results as well as the fact routes recently retained with buses younger than Euro6 such as the 86 and 57 have their contracts going beyond 2020 now. I see a few routes having mid contract upgrades because of this. The 57 'may' get away with their present buses as the route terminates on the South Circular borderline, not really venturing north of it.
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Post by snowman on Jul 6, 2016 9:40:43 GMT
I wonder if this will delay any upcoming tender results as well as the fact routes recently retained with buses younger than Euro6 such as the 86 and 57 have their contracts going beyond 2020 now. I see a few routes having mid contract upgrades because of this. The 57 'may' get away with keeping their E/WVLs as the route terminates on the South Circular borderline (not really venturing North of it). There is a misunderstanding here (not your fault as mayor tends not to be detailed by class of vehicle in his speeches) The North and South Circular boundaries appear to apply to cars, the edge of London (low emissions zone presumably) applies to bus and coaches
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Post by snoggle on Jul 6, 2016 10:12:15 GMT
There is now an initial consultation on air quality on the TfL website. This explains there is a three stage consultation process. At present there is just a canvassing of public opinion about the basic approach being taken by the mayor with more detail on the transport specific elements to come in the Autumn and next year. It's going to take about 2 years for a full conclusion to be reached. This aligns with public statements about TfL bus procurement policy only changing in 2018. This allows time for firm conclusions to be reached and then tender requirements to be changed. Note this is at odds with "aspirational" statements made by other politicians. I suspect waiting a while will also allow the supply market for vehicles to become clearer as to what technologies are viable and which are not (e.g. full electric vehicles charged only in garages vs virtual hybrids recharged at termini). consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/ulez/consult_view
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 6, 2016 10:13:40 GMT
The 57 'may' get away with keeping their E/WVLs as the route terminates on the South Circular borderline (not really venturing North of it). There is a misunderstanding here (not your fault as mayor tends not to be detailed by class of vehicle in his speeches) The North and South Circular boundaries appear to apply to cars, the edge of London (low emissions zone presumably) applies to bus and coaches As you approach the New Malden turn off on the NB A3 there is a sign saying "Leave here to avoid emission zone" or words to that effect, and as you enter the underpass a sign says "Emission Zone" so the 57 is 'in it' from the Coombe Lane flyover.
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Post by M1104 on Jul 7, 2016 12:38:34 GMT
There is a misunderstanding here (not your fault as mayor tends not to be detailed by class of vehicle in his speeches) The North and South Circular boundaries appear to apply to cars, the edge of London (low emissions zone presumably) applies to bus and coaches As you approach the New Malden turn off on the NB A3 there is a sign saying "Leave here to avoid emission zone" or words to that effect, and as you enter the underpass a sign says "Emission Zone" so the 57 is 'in it' from the Coombe Lane flyover. Courtesy of Google Earth
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 3, 2016 20:08:32 GMT
The Mayor has announced a consultation of vastly extending the ULEZ. This would have profound implications for the bus fleet.
I am guessing it would take a while for the expansion to come into 'full effect' considering that some contracts have just been awarded with existing euro4 engined buses (euro5 with the Eminox system). Such an expansion may also trigger more hybrid retrofits of diesel engine buses, like with the handfull of B7TLs soon to be treated. DB300s were already designed and built with the option of later life hybrid conversion and i believe its hybrid version is also switchable (for any operator that wishes to switch to diesel). First I have heard of this. The DB300 did seem over engineered. Only weak point is the power steering isn't as strong as on other buses, so the steering feels a little heavier.
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Post by snowman on Sept 14, 2016 12:53:21 GMT
The clear air pages have been updated following consultation Link LinkRevelant to buses, includes following Quote : "The outcome of this consultation is being used by City Hall and Transport for London to further develop measures for addressing poor air quality. There will be another consultation with Londoners on these detailed proposals in October, with more information provided at www.london.gov.uk/cleanair in due course." And the Headline percentages on ULEZ : "The Ultra-Low Emission Zone (ULEZ), and area covering the existing Congestion Charging Zone, is due to be introduced in September 2020. All cars, motorbikes, vans, minibuses, buses, coaches and heavy goods vehicles will need to meet exhaust emission standards to enter or pay a daily charge. The survey revealed that there is strong public support for bringing forward the implementation of the ULEZ a year earlier, to 2019 (79 per cent). In addition, 7 in 10 Londoners want the boundaries for the ULEZ to be extended up to the North / South circular or Londonwide for light vehicles. This rises to 87 per cent for heavy vehicles." Looks like TfL is going to have to upgrade the emissions on its bus fleet if 87% want expanded ULEZ
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Post by snoggle on Oct 10, 2016 11:38:42 GMT
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 10, 2016 17:14:03 GMT
What would it actually entail for buses. All buses woudk currently have to be euro 5 to upgrade to euro 6. They wouldn't all need to be hybrid would they in the expanded zone?
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Post by vjaska on Oct 10, 2016 17:55:27 GMT
What would it actually entail for buses. All buses woudk currently have to be euro 5 to upgrade to euro 6. They wouldn't all need to be hybrid would they in the expanded zone? All buses at the point the expanded zone is introduced which aren't already Euro VI will be converted. This will include non hybrids as well and if there are any Euro IV vehicles left by that point, they will most likely be converted as well.
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 10, 2016 18:49:56 GMT
Can euro 4 and 5 both be uprated to euro 6 then?
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Post by snowman on Oct 10, 2016 19:19:25 GMT
Can euro 4 and 5 both be uprated to euro 6 then? Yes, new exhaust systems, and remapping. The main problem is that euroVI tends to need heat, large block, low turbo pressure doesn't lend itself to exhaust treatment. Of course can change the engine, and keep rest of the bus. I was surprised by the reference to 5000 upgrades in total after initial 3000. That suggests everything in the fleet is being done (allowing for 1000 buses euroVI already, and probably another 3000 replaced by 2019). My guess is the extra 2000 are a realisation that virtually every route includes the LEZ as the boundary for that is near the London boundary.
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