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Post by snoggle on Jan 10, 2017 15:51:08 GMT
Quelle surprise - the W11 is going to be destroyed by TfL.
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Post by routew15 on Jan 10, 2017 17:55:06 GMT
Quelle surprise - the W11 is going to be destroyed by TfL. Whilst I accept the pro-diversionW11 passengers will be getting a diversion that they agree with, there are more than 198 passengers that use the route and this consultation is not an accurate representation of most W11 passenger views. Although I'm sure that most passengers will "put up" with these changes or grow to like them just as they did with the all the other changes put in place beforehand. I do not travel around the borough as much as I used (due to the ridiculous journey times on buses) although I always recall a packed W15 to/from Higham Hill and W'stow Central so unless this has changed recently I am not aware of this spare capacity Palmerston Roads can use... Also surprised to see not one suggestion of the 397 being extended!
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Post by snoggle on Jan 10, 2017 18:08:57 GMT
Quelle surprise - the W11 is going to be destroyed by TfL. Whilst I accept the pro-diversionW11 passengers will be getting a diversion that they agree with, there are more than 198 passengers that use the route and this consultation is not an accurate representation of most W11 passenger views. Although I'm sure that most passengers will "put up" with these changes or grow to like them just as they did with the all the other changes put in place beforehand. I do not travel around the borough as much as I used (due to the ridiculous journey times on buses) although I always recall a packed W15 to/from Higham Hill and W'stow Central so unless this has changed recently I am not aware of this spare capacity Palmerston Roads can use... Also surprised to see not one suggestion of the 397 being extended! I've not read the consultation detail. I just shared the E Mail text I received from TfL. As ever TfL have done what they want. As you say I am sure some people will benefit from a direct link to Blackhorse Rd from Priory Court - especially if they are catching the Tube / GOBLIN. However there are reasonable volumes of people who travel to / from the High St stops on Palmerston Rd. People will be forced to either change buses at Forest Rd or walk to the Central / Selborne Rd / South Grove / St James St and I think people are going to royally p-ed off when they release this. THe W15 is hopelessly unreliable which is why some buses are dreadfully overcrowded and others are empty. Peak times the W11 and W15 are all full going in the peak direction so people on Palmerston Rd won't get on anyway. Quite where the spare peak time capacity is on the W11 to be able to cater for more people on Forest Rd / Blackhorse Rd is anyone's guess. I said to TfL in my response that an entire review of the "W" routes was needed. I didn't put forward a specific idea like the 397 being extended. Anyway with the budget cuts and capped kilometrage it's all utterly pointless to suggest improvements as they won't happen. I've got rather fed up with reasonable suggestions being summarily dismissed by TfL. I guess we should be lucky the Sunday evening frequency is being upped to x15 which I am sure people will find more convenient. Now do I go to City Hall tomorrow and heckle the Transport Committee session on "bus service planning"?
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Post by mondraker275 on Jan 23, 2017 16:37:57 GMT
I am bit late on this, although I already knew it was happening. I would question a lot of things on the response, but '6 minutes' additional journey time is a joke.
I am totally baffled by the results. Then on closer inspection, the area of the letter drop emphasizes to me that TfL do not understand the passengers most effected. It is not passengers on Palmerston Road or nearby, but its the passengers in Priory Court, South Countness Road and Millfield Avenue. They did not get letters or did they have bus stops to put the posters. I would have a go at TfL but I cannot be bothered anymore, see signature below.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2017 17:04:18 GMT
I am bit late on this, although I already knew it was happening. I would question a lot of things on the response, but '6 minutes' additional journey time is a joke. I am totally baffled by the results. Then on closer inspection, the area of the letter drop emphasizes to me that TfL do not understand the passengers most effected. It is not passengers on Palmerston Road or nearby, but its the passengers in Priory Court, South Countness Road and Millfield Avenue. They did not get letters or did they have bus stops to put the posters. I would have a go at TfL but I cannot be bothered anymore, see signature below. And as if to prove this I was chatting to an old lady while waiting for the W11 near Priory Court. She had no idea a change was coming up and was really surprised that the bus would run via Blackhorse Rd. "How long's that going to take?" she asked. As you say "6 mins additional jny time" is not applicable to any peak or shopping hour journey. May just be achieveable in the early mornings and late evenings but not otherwise. I suspect an awful lot of people in Priory Court are going to get one heck of a fright come early March and the bus doesn't turn down Palmerston Road and we get new buses breaking down and drivers who don't know where the regular "stops" are through Priory Court.
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Post by routew15 on Jan 23, 2017 17:36:20 GMT
If the above is the case and judging by the reaction to revert the W11 to Palmerston Road (not so long ago) I think local MP should expect a lot of letters this March/April regarding the W11.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2017 19:03:18 GMT
If the above is the case and judging by the reaction to revert the W11 to Palmerston Road (not so long ago) I think local MP should expect a lot of letters this March/April regarding the W11. I doubt it. People will moan, shrug their shoulders and put up with it. It's over 2 years since the W11/W15 returned to Palmerston Road and nothing has been said about any other service options. It's been raised in the Mini Holland consultation process (people were asked for general as well as specific comments) but no one has a clue what happens to feedback left there. Might as well go into a black hole. We should also have had a local network review, given how many routes come up for retender at the same time in Waltham Forest, but no sign of that ever being published by TfL. And I can't get anything done via my local Assembly Member - previously excellent but I've been trying to get some info / questions asked and I can't even get E Mails responded to. God knows what is going on there - I assume her office at City Hall is not functioning as it should. Despite being perfectly polite and understanding in my requests I think I've been consigned to the "round metal filing cabinet".
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Post by routew15 on Jan 23, 2017 21:52:57 GMT
If the above is the case and judging by the reaction to revert the W11 to Palmerston Road (not so long ago) I think local MP should expect a lot of letters this March/April regarding the W11. I doubt it. People will moan, shrug their shoulders and put up with it. It's over 2 years since the W11/W15 returned to Palmerston Road and nothing has been said about any other service options. It's been raised in the Mini Holland consultation process (people were asked for general as well as specific comments) but no one has a clue what happens to feedback left there. Might as well go into a black hole. We should also have had a local network review, given how many routes come up for retender at the same time in Waltham Forest, but no sign of that ever being published by TfL. And I can't get anything done via my local Assembly Member - previously excellent but I've been trying to get some info / questions asked and I can't even get E Mails responded to. God knows what is going on there - I assume her office at City Hall is not functioning as it should. Despite being perfectly polite and understanding in my requests I think I've been consigned to the "round metal filing cabinet". I hope your right cause watching the demands of the Pretoria Road residents to get "mini holland finished" in there area and have more road closures it was very vigorous with results that they now seem pleased by. I just think the changes are disappointing and have an adverse affect on those doing long distance journeys via bus has now been extended by god knows how long (as mentioned it's very unlikely to be 6 mins or under). If you're say travelling to Leyton from Priory Court you might head to Wstow Central to get a 69/97 but now you're Diverted to Blackhorse Road where you are placed on a less frequent corridor to catch a 158. Leyton to/from Higham Hill was a popular link back when I used the W15 from Blackhorse Road. I look forward to seeing how this all pans out. Who knows maybe in another 5-10 years this will be reversed ? I think a review of Waltham Forest bus routes would of been great might of finally seen TfLs plans for: filling the gaps of Wadham Road and Orient Way, there projections for bus travel demands (particularly important post-Mini Hollands and LO upgrade), and bus depot space (losing Leyton completely which is something that is most probably on the card). With all the other distractions of sorting out buses for Central London and Crossrail the Waltham Forest review may get shelved for later years.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2017 22:36:04 GMT
I hope your right cause watching the demands of the Pretoria Road residents to get "mini holland finished" in there area and have more road closures it was very vigorous with results that they now seem pleased by. I just think the changes are disappointing and have an adverse affect on those doing long distance journeys via bus has now been extended by god knows how long (as mentioned it's very unlikely to be 6 mins or under). If you're say travelling to Leyton from Priory Court you might head to Wstow Central to get a 69/97 but now you're Diverted to Blackhorse Road where you are placed on a less frequent corridor to catch a 158. Leyton to/from Higham Hill was a popular link back when I used the W15 from Blackhorse Road. I look forward to seeing how this all pans out. Who knows maybe in another 5-10 years this will be reversed ? I think a review of Waltham Forest bus routes would of been great might of finally seen TfLs plans for: filling the gaps of Wadham Road and Orient Way, there projections for bus travel demands (particularly important post-Mini Hollands and LO upgrade), and bus depot space (losing Leyton completely which is something that is most probably on the card). With all the other distractions of sorting out buses for Central London and Crossrail the Waltham Forest review may get shelved for later years. Wonder how pleased the Pretoria Av residents were in having a fire engine get stuck in the new closures and be unable to reach where the fire was? To be fair that area has been mostly sealed off anyway for years so why they wanted even more sealing up is beyond me. I am pretty convinced that TfL have done a review of the area but they have concluded that the totality of what was needed was the recently enhanced W19, the M-F extra frequency on the 158 and the revision to the W11. All the effort has been directed to relief of issues either side of Leytonstone plus the Higham Hill / Billet extra housing issue. There's not much else at present that would trigger substantial investment in services to reach "development areas". The Olympic Park will always be considered separately. The next big potential change is at Walthamstow Central plus South Grove which are within stepping distance of lots of buses and rail / tube services. High PTAL levels won't trigger more bus services. There is clearly no desire at all to infill missing links but that's nothing new. Orient Way isn't going to be bussed because it may undermine usage of Lea Bridge station - again something the council won't want to see. The other, probably unstated, issue is Mini Holland. I suspect the Council have not been pressing for any bus investment because they want people to use their bicycles. I can't see TfL wishing to work against the objective given £30m has been channeled to the Council for Mini Holland. The only possible source of extra buses in to Waltham Forest is whatever happens with Meridian Water redevelopment and whether a new, rather than rerouted, services are put into the area. I'd not be shocked to see the 192, 341, 34 and 444 all being affected by the redevelopment albeit changes will be stretched over a number of years given the scale of work needed.
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Post by routew15 on Jan 23, 2017 23:30:33 GMT
I hope your right cause watching the demands of the Pretoria Road residents to get "mini holland finished" in there area and have more road closures it was very vigorous with results that they now seem pleased by. I just think the changes are disappointing and have an adverse affect on those doing long distance journeys via bus has now been extended by god knows how long (as mentioned it's very unlikely to be 6 mins or under). If you're say travelling to Leyton from Priory Court you might head to Wstow Central to get a 69/97 but now you're Diverted to Blackhorse Road where you are placed on a less frequent corridor to catch a 158. Leyton to/from Higham Hill was a popular link back when I used the W15 from Blackhorse Road. I look forward to seeing how this all pans out. Who knows maybe in another 5-10 years this will be reversed ? I think a review of Waltham Forest bus routes would of been great might of finally seen TfLs plans for: filling the gaps of Wadham Road and Orient Way, there projections for bus travel demands (particularly important post-Mini Hollands and LO upgrade), and bus depot space (losing Leyton completely which is something that is most probably on the card). With all the other distractions of sorting out buses for Central London and Crossrail the Waltham Forest review may get shelved for later years. Wonder how pleased the Pretoria Av residents were in having a fire engine get stuck in the new closures and be unable to reach where the fire was? To be fair that area has been mostly sealed off anyway for years so why they wanted even more sealing up is beyond me. I am pretty convinced that TfL have done a review of the area but they have concluded that the totality of what was needed was the recently enhanced W19, the M-F extra frequency on the 158 and the revision to the W11. All the effort has been directed to relief of issues either side of Leytonstone plus the Higham Hill / Billet extra housing issue. There's not much else at present that would trigger substantial investment in services to reach "development areas". The Olympic Park will always be considered separately. The next big potential change is at Walthamstow Central plus South Grove which are within stepping distance of lots of buses and rail / tube services. High PTAL levels won't trigger more bus services. There is clearly no desire at all to infill missing links but that's nothing new. Orient Way isn't going to be bussed because it may undermine usage of Lea Bridge station - again something the council won't want to see. The other, probably unstated, issue is Mini Holland. I suspect the Council have not been pressing for any bus investment because they want people to use their bicycles. I can't see TfL wishing to work against the objective given £30m has been channeled to the Council for Mini Holland. The only possible source of extra buses in to Waltham Forest is whatever happens with Meridian Water redevelopment and whether a new, rather than rerouted, services are put into the area. I'd not be shocked to see the 192, 341, 34 and 444 all being affected by the redevelopment albeit changes will be stretched over a number of years given the scale of work needed. I think the goal of Pretoria Avenue and the surrounding is to be become the Waltham forest equivalent of De Beauvoir Town. If it is the case that those three are 'all that is required' then the W15 has been omitted somewhere along the line as the route not ok in its current state. Beyond that, the Chingford Road corridor is something that needs to be watched particularly the area around the Walthamstow Stadium which is soon coming to an end. Also Marlowe Estate and Wood Street regeneration works start soon and the W16 is not going to manage with the extra pressure of the that, it can't be assumed that all residents will use the London Overground. (I do note that the improved service of the W19 has lead to (from my observation) a more packed buses between walthamstow and Leytonstone, particularly on a Sunday, although this may be due to the shoddy service of the sister route W15). Orient Way is a fringe road and the new route that is chosen to serve the road could be flexible in where it terminates. personally a Walthamstow Central via Low Hall and Orient Way to Leyton ASDA (and beyond) link has always been a desire of mine. This would not really takeaway from Lea Bridge but quite possibly add to demand as it would essentially be a bus replacement service of the Hall Farm curve.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 24, 2017 0:07:35 GMT
I think the goal of Pretoria Avenue and the surrounding is to be become the Waltham forest equivalent of De Beauvoir Town. If it is the case that those three are 'all that is required' then the W15 has been omitted somewhere along the line as the route not ok in its current state. Beyond that, the Chingford Road corridor is something that needs to be watched particularly the area around the Walthamstow Stadium which is soon coming to an end. Also Marlowe Estate and Wood Street regeneration works start soon and the W16 is not going to manage with the extra pressure of the that, it can't be assumed that all residents will use the London Overground. (I do note that the improved service of the W19 has lead to (from my observation) a more packed buses between walthamstow and Leytonstone, particularly on a Sunday, although this may be due to the shoddy service of the sister route W15). Orient Way is a fringe road and the new route that is chosen to serve the road could be flexible in where it terminates. personally a Walthamstow Central via Low Hall and Orient Way to Leyton ASDA (and beyond) link has always been a desire of mine. This would not really takeaway from Lea Bridge but quite possibly add to demand as it would essentially be a bus replacement service of the Hall Farm curve. I work on the basis that if TfL have retendered the route and it's basically been retendered "as is" then TfL are satisfied with the basic spec. As they keep saying they look at "corridors" and then look at what route to tweak. W19 has been the chosen route for coping with Walthamstow - Leytonstone growth issues. The W15 has been "difficult" for many years but I don't think TfL know what to do with it given the lack of stand space in and around Leytonstone / Whipps Cross which would be the logical place for a split of some sort. They've looked at the "Higham Hill" corridor and decided enhanced 158/W11 is enough for that. In terms of Wood Street / Marlowe Estate then there is the 230 within walking distance and it's not overloaded at that point. In the other direction there is the 212 and W12 too. 212 is difficult in the peaks but otherwise has plenty of capacity. The W16 is getting a Sunday boost. I suspect if it were being retendered now then it definitely would NOT get an increase. Ditto some of the evening and Sunday increases in and around Harrow over the last year. It is worth noting that Councillors voted to remove provision for a bus stand at Lea Bridge station when it came to approving the finances. This prevents the W19 being extended to a logical destination even though it was an option TfL specced when they last retendered the route. If the W14 wasn't so troublesome to run properly then it would be relatively easy to extend it up to Argall Avenue and just turn it at the roundabout the W19 uses to turn or the one near where the W19 stands. Interchange wouldn't be too dreadful between an extended W14 and W19 as the frequencies are roughly compatible. Obviously wouldn't work late evenings and I can't imagine Argall Av is the best place for a bus to stand at night.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 12, 2017 9:29:32 GMT
TfL have updated the consultation page with this (matches what I got back via Twitter).
So improvements can really only happen if TfL start pulling in a lot more revenue.
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Post by enviroPB on Jun 12, 2017 11:49:42 GMT
TfL have updated the consultation page with this (matches what I got back via Twitter). So improvements can really only happen if TfL start pulling in a lot more revenue. What demand??? They're either referring to the housing not yet fully built and habitable along Blackhorse Road, or quite simply they're talking out of their rear end. The longer they push this unnecessary delay the better; but I'm now starrting to wonder how the W15 isn't going to be roped into this, and would likely see some changes too as it will have to solely cope with passengers on Palmerston Road.
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Post by redbus on Jun 12, 2017 18:05:57 GMT
TfL have updated the consultation page with this (matches what I got back via Twitter). So improvements can really only happen if TfL start pulling in a lot more revenue. Well how about funding it from the Finchley Road or Central London bus cuts. We are told the savings will be used to improve services elsewhere and I am still waiting to see those improvements, so how about the W11 as one of them!
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Post by vjaska on Jun 12, 2017 18:17:26 GMT
TfL have updated the consultation page with this (matches what I got back via Twitter). So improvements can really only happen if TfL start pulling in a lot more revenue. Well how about funding it from the Finchley Road or Central London bus cuts. We are told the savings will be used to improve services elsewhere and I am still waiting to see those improvements, so how about the W11 as one of them! Indeed but I had a feeling this would happen. I know my area won't see any improvements - already two routes have been lined up for frequency reductions whilst the proposed re-routing of the 3/N3 is extremely hit & miss.
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