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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 24, 2016 8:22:52 GMT
Just been watching a e400city being regassed by Grayson thermal systems. To confirm what others do not seem to understand or believe. They are filled with refrigerant. So it is air conditioning, just not on a grand scale. The units are too small though to cope with near 30 degrees and above heat.
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Post by snowman on Aug 24, 2016 9:19:22 GMT
Just been watching a e400city being regassed by Grayson thermal systems. To confirm what others do not seem to understand or believe. They are filled with refrigerant. So it is air conditioning, just not on a grand scale. The units are too small though to cope with near 30 degrees and above heat. Buses are normally fitted with two systems, an air conditioner for the cab and air cooling unit. The cooling unit is not air conditioning as it does not have dehumidifiers. I believe they dont have any temperature control either, supposed to chill air by fixed 5c regardless of ambient temperature. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 24, 2016 9:41:40 GMT
Just been watching a e400city being regassed by Grayson thermal systems. To confirm what others do not seem to understand or believe. They are filled with refrigerant. So it is air conditioning, just not on a grand scale. The units are too small though to cope with near 30 degrees and above heat. I assume the "others do not seem to understand" reference applies to me. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that a London spec E400 (or any other TfL spec double decker) does not have air conditioning in the way that buses in the Far East do. The systems are NOT the same, do not work in the same way and certainly do NOT provide an equivalent level of cooling [1]. TfL make no claims whatsoever that their bus spec includes full air conditioning for passenger saloon areas. I assume they know what they are specifying and what gets delivered. If an operator voluntarily specs a bus with full air conditioning [2] then that's the good luck of the passengers using that route. [1] I've been "frozen" enough times on HK Olympians, Tridents and E500s to know the difference. [2] I'm never sure what Citaros have. I know other single deckers don't have full air con in the passenger area. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 24, 2016 11:57:14 GMT
Just been watching a e400city being regassed by Grayson thermal systems. To confirm what others do not seem to understand or believe. They are filled with refrigerant. So it is air conditioning, just not on a grand scale. The units are too small though to cope with near 30 degrees and above heat. Buses are normally fitted with two systems, an air conditioner for the cab and air cooling unit. The cooling unit is not air conditioning as it does not have dehumidifiers. I believe they dont have any temperature control either, supposed to chill air by fixed 5c regardless of ambient temperature. They do have a dehumidifier, although there is no temperature control, so its either on or off. The cab systems on many that is integrated like upper deck is not the best either for roasting hot weather. The best were separate units that were fitted to dla, ta etc. Or on single decks the roof mounted units above the xab on some metroline and abellio buses. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 24, 2016 12:02:58 GMT
Just been watching a e400city being regassed by Grayson thermal systems. To confirm what others do not seem to understand or believe. They are filled with refrigerant. So it is air conditioning, just not on a grand scale. The units are too small though to cope with near 30 degrees and above heat. I assume the "others do not seem to understand" reference applies to me. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that a London spec E400 (or any other TfL spec double decker) does not have air conditioning in the way that buses in the Far East do. The systems are NOT the same, do not work in the same way and certainly do NOT provide an equivalent level of cooling [1]. TfL make no claims whatsoever that their bus spec includes full air conditioning for passenger saloon areas. I assume they know what they are specifying and what gets delivered. If an operator voluntarily specs a bus with full air conditioning [2] then that's the good luck of the passengers using that route. [1] I've been "frozen" enough times on HK Olympians, Tridents and E500s to know the difference. [2] I'm never sure what Citaros have. I know other single deckers don't have full air con in the passenger area. Yes I was referring to you, lol. As I had said previously it is ac, just on a poor scale, it is too small to be effective above 20degrees. The type of full blasting ac as on Hong Kong or Canada buses would require more diesel and on some double decker another axle or lower seating /standing capacity. Now we are getting electric single deckers there should not really be an excuse for not having proper ac. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 24, 2016 13:30:00 GMT
I assume the "others do not seem to understand" reference applies to me. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that a London spec E400 (or any other TfL spec double decker) does not have air conditioning in the way that buses in the Far East do. The systems are NOT the same, do not work in the same way and certainly do NOT provide an equivalent level of cooling [1]. TfL make no claims whatsoever that their bus spec includes full air conditioning for passenger saloon areas. I assume they know what they are specifying and what gets delivered. If an operator voluntarily specs a bus with full air conditioning [2] then that's the good luck of the passengers using that route. [1] I've been "frozen" enough times on HK Olympians, Tridents and E500s to know the difference. [2] I'm never sure what Citaros have. I know other single deckers don't have full air con in the passenger area. Yes I was referring to you, lol. As I had said previously it is ac, just on a poor scale, it is too small to be effective above 20degrees. The type of full blasting ac as on Hong Kong or Canada buses would require more diesel and on some double decker another axle or lower seating /standing capacity. Now we are getting electric single deckers there should not really be an excuse for not having proper ac. I appreciate we are getting into arguing about "how many angels on a pin head?" but how can the system be air conditioning if it does work to full condition and chill the air for the range of temperatures that we experience? Every year in London we experience temperatures above 20 degrees for a decent number of days. The conditions in buses get really incredibly uncomfortable and TfL have fitted a technology that can't work in those conditions. Why bother? Just have plenty of opening windows on both decks. There is really no need to repeat the "fuel use" argument for not fitting full air con because that's the argument I quoted at you from a TfL Board Paper. I don't think electric (or hydrogen) buses offer any advantage in terms of cooling systems. They are incredibly heavy vehicles which are already having to use the "flexed" axle weight limits or have reduced passenger carrying capability or both in order to operate. Why on earth would TfL spec full air conditioning on such buses thus increasing power demands and vehicle weight? I'm no engineer but I'd have thought an increased power demand for an air conditioning system might have an effect on the number of batteries any such electric vehicle needed. Anyone know for sure? Can we just simply agree to disagree over definitions and then you won't feel the need to "keep having a pop" at me and I won't feel the need to respond?  |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 24, 2016 13:52:12 GMT
Yes I was referring to you, lol. As I had said previously it is ac, just on a poor scale, it is too small to be effective above 20degrees. The type of full blasting ac as on Hong Kong or Canada buses would require more diesel and on some double decker another axle or lower seating /standing capacity. Now we are getting electric single deckers there should not really be an excuse for not having proper ac. I don't think electric (or hydrogen) buses offer any advantage in terms of cooling systems. They are incredibly heavy vehicles which are already having to use the "flexed" axle weight limits or have reduced passenger carrying capability or both in order to operate. Why on earth would TfL spec full air conditioning on such buses thus increasing power demands and vehicle weight? I'm no engineer but I'd have thought an increased power demand for an air conditioning system might have an effect on the number of batteries any such electric vehicle needed. Anyone know for sure? You literally took the words out of my mouth - the only way you could realistically achieve an electric bus with proper air con is somehow invent ridiculously light batteries or remove other things from the bus like seats - the light battery on a bus has yet to be done whilst removing seats is not practical for most routes at all. |
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Post by guybowden on Aug 25, 2016 7:15:34 GMT
Having worked on air conditioning systems in offices and restaurants as well as fitting duct work, Air cooling just does that it chills the air by a little amount. On the fresh air or charge system of a duct work system we use to fit a heater battery that was 3 phase 415 volts a/c (alternating current not air con). These heater batteries pull 15 to 25 amps of current depending on how big the duct work was and all it did was warm the air by no more than 10 degrees. The air con side was an outdoor unit that houses a compressor, a coil, fans and a PCB. To keep it simple the compressor creates pressure and pumps the gas to the indoor unit where is it fed round a coil and the air that travels through the coil is chilled/cooled and then a fan pumps it out of the indoor unit. The gas now is hot and lost its pressure and is pumped back out to the outdoor unit where it is fed through the coil and back to the compressor where it goes through the cycle again. You have two pipes a high and low pressure line and the indoor and outdoor units are connected to each other by a wire that is usually ran with the pipes that are lag.
On single decker buses the cab air con has a pump connected to the crank by a belt and that is the compressor and this system work very similar to as describe above. No air cooling for the saloon. Double deckers upstairs have an indoor unit and I personally think it is under powered. (normally above the stairs) and pumps chilled air out form the slots in the ceiling panel. The outdoor unit is underneath the rear seats upstairs, (grills around the rear route box). The cab air con is shared by this system but takes fresh air from behind the number plate panel below the windscreen at the front. Where the intake is for the upstair cooling I don't know.
The two biggest down falls of the cooling of buses in my opinion is one they are controlled by a pre set thermostat (both heating and cooling). The heating works when the outside temperature is below 16 degrees but the engine coolant temperature is above 60 degrees. Personally 16 is too high especially on a full bus in spring time. I can't remember the settings for cooling. The second is the cooling side is not powerful enough. For it to make any difference I feel as through the air flow should be twice what it currently is and its not as simple as fitting a more powerful fan!!
There is no point in fitting Hong Kong style air con because it will only be needed for 3 to 4 months of the year. So for 8 or 9 months of the year the bus will have to carry all that extra weight about for doing nothing. Just as I left the air con job for pastures new they were introducing systems that did both heating and cooling but these systems were about 25% more than just cooling systems in terms of cost. If the technology was worked for buses then great but it would be extra cost to buy, service and run. Vehicle weight will be increased, fuel consumption will increase.
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Post by john on Aug 25, 2016 7:27:57 GMT
All I know is that 1) any air con in the cab yesterday was much needed and 2) no one wanted to drive a Scania. Take from that what you will but in the heat yesterday, the drivers well being is just as important
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 25, 2016 11:41:47 GMT
There is no point in fitting Hong Kong style air con because it will only be needed for 3 to 4 months of the year. So for 8 or 9 months of the year the bus will have to carry all that extra weight about for doing nothing. Just as I left the air con job for pastures new they were introducing systems that did both heating and cooling but these systems were about 25% more than just cooling systems in terms of cost. If the technology was worked for buses then great but it would be extra cost to buy, service and run. Vehicle weight will be increased, fuel consumption will increase. I will have to disagree with this point. When it's hot in the UK it is hot and I personally believe that this does not negate the fact that passengers still have the right to bask within a chilled and pleasant environment on these arguably few and far between hot days. Passengers (and tourists) pay for the services they use, therefore they should make full use of what they pay for, however if this means having to avoid hot and stuffy buses which could be arguably detrimental to their health and wellbeing then something really needs to be done about this, especially given the fact that most Underground lines don't have Air Conditioning either. Fitting London buses with Air Conditioning units should be the way forward regardless of the extra costs this may incur be it due to weight, fuel consumption etc. I would have no objection to paying tax towards something benefiting the society, unlike certain areas within the transport sector which are not worthy whatsoever. It's easy to forget that Air Conditioning can also be beneficial during winter as they double up as heaters in cold conditions too. There really is little excuse for not having Air Conditioning. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 25, 2016 14:07:09 GMT
There is no point in fitting Hong Kong style air con because it will only be needed for 3 to 4 months of the year. So for 8 or 9 months of the year the bus will have to carry all that extra weight about for doing nothing. Just as I left the air con job for pastures new they were introducing systems that did both heating and cooling but these systems were about 25% more than just cooling systems in terms of cost. If the technology was worked for buses then great but it would be extra cost to buy, service and run. Vehicle weight will be increased, fuel consumption will increase. I will have to disagree with this point. When it's hot in the UK it is hot and I personally believe that this does not negate the fact that passengers still have the right to bask within a chilled and pleasant environment on these arguably few and far between hot days. Passengers (and tourists) pay for the services they use, therefore they should make full use of what they pay for, however if this means having to avoid hot and stuffy buses which could be arguably detrimental to their health and wellbeing then something really needs to be done about this, especially given the fact that most Underground lines don't have Air Conditioning either. Fitting London buses with Air Conditioning units should be the way forward regardless of the extra costs this may incur be it due to weight, fuel consumption etc. I would have no objection to paying tax towards something benefiting the society, unlike certain areas within the transport sector which are not worthy whatsoever. It's easy to forget that Air Conditioning can also be beneficial during winter as they double up as heaters in cold conditions too. There really is little excuse for not having Air Conditioning. Now if only sliding windows were fitted on all buses other than LT's........... In all seriousness though, I don't think air-con is needed in on buses in this country. If buses were all fitted with the cooling system in Gemini2's & Gemini3's plus with sliding windows, you'd have a considerably cool bus without having to pack on extra weight or increase fuel consumption at the same time  |
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Post by guybowden on Aug 25, 2016 17:12:02 GMT
There is no point in fitting Hong Kong style air con because it will only be needed for 3 to 4 months of the year. So for 8 or 9 months of the year the bus will have to carry all that extra weight about for doing nothing. Just as I left the air con job for pastures new they were introducing systems that did both heating and cooling but these systems were about 25% more than just cooling systems in terms of cost. If the technology was worked for buses then great but it would be extra cost to buy, service and run. Vehicle weight will be increased, fuel consumption will increase. I will have to disagree with this point. When it's hot in the UK it is hot and I personally believe that this does not negate the fact that passengers still have the right to bask within a chilled and pleasant environment on these arguably few and far between hot days. Passengers (and tourists) pay for the services they use, therefore they should make full use of what they pay for, however if this means having to avoid hot and stuffy buses which could be arguably detrimental to their health and wellbeing then something really needs to be done about this, especially given the fact that most Underground lines don't have Air Conditioning either. Fitting London buses with Air Conditioning units should be the way forward regardless of the extra costs this may incur be it due to weight, fuel consumption etc. I would have no objection to paying tax towards something benefiting the society, unlike certain areas within the transport sector which are not worthy whatsoever. It's easy to forget that Air Conditioning can also be beneficial during winter as they double up as heaters in cold conditions too. There really is little excuse for not having Air Conditioning. When bus fares are double and contract costs go up so there could be less buses on the road which would mean packed buses then you will be moaning as will everyone else just you can be chilled for a few months of the year. |
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Post by rmz19 on Aug 25, 2016 19:44:33 GMT
I will have to disagree with this point. When it's hot in the UK it is hot and I personally believe that this does not negate the fact that passengers still have the right to bask within a chilled and pleasant environment on these arguably few and far between hot days. Passengers (and tourists) pay for the services they use, therefore they should make full use of what they pay for, however if this means having to avoid hot and stuffy buses which could be arguably detrimental to their health and wellbeing then something really needs to be done about this, especially given the fact that most Underground lines don't have Air Conditioning either. Fitting London buses with Air Conditioning units should be the way forward regardless of the extra costs this may incur be it due to weight, fuel consumption etc. I would have no objection to paying tax towards something benefiting the society, unlike certain areas within the transport sector which are not worthy whatsoever. It's easy to forget that Air Conditioning can also be beneficial during winter as they double up as heaters in cold conditions too. There really is little excuse for not having Air Conditioning. Now if only sliding windows were fitted on all buses other than LT's........... In all seriousness though, I don't think air-con is needed in on buses in this country. If buses were all fitted with the cooling system in Gemini2's & Gemini3's plus with sliding windows, you'd have a considerably cool bus without having to pack on extra weight or increase fuel consumption at the same time The problem is the effectiveness of some of the Air Cooling systems themselves. I'm unsure as to how they function, I assume they consist of fans blowing out chilled air emitted by a refrigerant that is thermostatically controlled. If this is true then perhaps the temperature of the thermostat is not low enough to provide sufficiently chilled air to erradicate heat within buses. Otherwise, if they're effective enough to be an alternative to Air Conditioning in hot conditions then I suppose Air Conditioning wouldn't be needed. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 27, 2016 12:13:56 GMT
Having worked on air conditioning systems in offices and restaurants as well as fitting duct work, Air cooling just does that it chills the air by a little amount. On the fresh air or charge system of a duct work system we use to fit a heater battery that was 3 phase 415 volts a/c (alternating current not air con). These heater batteries pull 15 to 25 amps of current depending on how big the duct work was and all it did was warm the air by no more than 10 degrees. The air con side was an outdoor unit that houses a compressor, a coil, fans and a PCB. To keep it simple the compressor creates pressure and pumps the gas to the indoor unit where is it fed round a coil and the air that travels through the coil is chilled/cooled and then a fan pumps it out of the indoor unit. The gas now is hot and lost its pressure and is pumped back out to the outdoor unit where it is fed through the coil and back to the compressor where it goes through the cycle again. You have two pipes a high and low pressure line and the indoor and outdoor units are connected to each other by a wire that is usually ran with the pipes that are lag. On single decker buses the cab air con has a pump connected to the crank by a belt and that is the compressor and this system work very similar to as describe above. No air cooling for the saloon. Double deckers upstairs have an indoor unit and I personally think it is under powered. (normally above the stairs) and pumps chilled air out form the slots in the ceiling panel. The outdoor unit is underneath the rear seats upstairs, (grills around the rear route box). The cab air con is shared by this system but takes fresh air from behind the number plate panel below the windscreen at the front. Where the intake is for the upstair cooling I don't know. The two biggest down falls of the cooling of buses in my opinion is one they are controlled by a pre set thermostat (both heating and cooling). The heating works when the outside temperature is below 16 degrees but the engine coolant temperature is above 60 degrees. Personally 16 is too high especially on a full bus in spring time. I can't remember the settings for cooling. The second is the cooling side is not powerful enough. For it to make any difference I feel as through the air flow should be twice what it currently is and its not as simple as fitting a more powerful fan!! There is no point in fitting Hong Kong style air con because it will only be needed for 3 to 4 months of the year. So for 8 or 9 months of the year the bus will have to carry all that extra weight about for doing nothing. Just as I left the air con job for pastures new they were introducing systems that did both heating and cooling but these systems were about 25% more than just cooling systems in terms of cost. If the technology was worked for buses then great but it would be extra cost to buy, service and run. Vehicle weight will be increased, fuel consumption will increase. The air intake on the Gemini 2 and E400 is at either nearside rear mid deck. It does not turn on the heating on all buses blew 16 deg C, I tend to find it happens below 10 deg c. But once the interior is heated up to a certain level, it would then turn off or blow at a slower speed. Above 16 deg C the ac units tend to come on, but supplying standard air, then above 18 deg c it then starts to blow cold with the refridgerant. There are a few faulty heater units where the valve has failed and it would just blow standard air inside, not fun on a winters day when this happens as it could seem like ac.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 10:31:43 GMT
I find the cooling systems on the Wright bodies far superior to that of the ADL bodies.
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