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Post by snowman on Sept 13, 2016 5:30:49 GMT
I think Abellio Surrey have tried, with some local initiatives, but never really had the support of Head office in Camberwell.
Some other bus companies have invested in corridors and made them successful, instead Abellio Surrey has never had a single new bus since Abellio started. Majority of fleet is over decade old, none exudes quality with rattling buses. It has always been perceived as a basic service that you only use if you can't afford anything better, eg a car or minicab.
None of its services runs frequently, it's cross border services are hampered as they never received common or reciprocal ticketing (you can't use oyster even for a journey like Surbiton-Kingston). There is nothing to encourage teenagers to use the bus so many grow up not using it.
Many of its stops are not inviting, just a pole. No seats, sparce (if any) info on next bus, no shelter if it rains, weeds growing. Some of the bus stops give you a phone number to ring, if you going to call someone, may as well call a minicab and have it take you to your door.
In a way it's network is too complicated. As an example if you go shopping in Kingston, it's return services towards Esher operate from different stops on opposite sides of the shopping area. Why not have one more frequent route.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2016 5:44:13 GMT
If the traffic wasn't so bad, a high profile Sapphire style service from Epsom - Stanies / Egham or even Heathrow could be viable, say via Ashstead, Leatherhead, Cobham, Esher, Hersham, Walton, Shepperton, Sunbury, Ashford then either Stanies / Egham or Heathrow.
Wipe out the 408/479/555/556 in one go, with some bus priority measures. Maybe Stagecoach could run this and have some sort of tie in with SW Trains with financial incentives.
The density of housing in those areas should theoretically provide a decent catchment, but I agree with other posters, it's the image that's the problem. Metrobus in Crawley etc cited above is a classic example of what can achieved if some serious effort is put in.
I live in Kent now. And I've often wondered what it is that makes Kent citizens happy to board coaches to / from Central London rather than the train. Surrey have no commuter coach routes that I know of. Why is that ? I'm presuming its social economic issues at play.
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Post by sid on Sept 13, 2016 7:02:03 GMT
If the traffic wasn't so bad, a high profile Sapphire style service from Epsom - Stanies / Egham or even Heathrow could be viable, say via Ashstead, Leatherhead, Cobham, Esher, Hersham, Walton, Shepperton, Sunbury, Ashford then either Stanies / Egham or Heathrow. Wipe out the 408/479/555/556 in one go, with some bus priority measures. Maybe Stagecoach could run this and have some sort of tie in with SW Trains with financial incentives. The density of housing in those areas should theoretically provide a decent catchment, but I agree with other posters, it's the image that's the problem. Metrobus in Crawley etc cited above is a classic example of what can achieved if some serious effort is put in. I live in Kent now. And I've often wondered what it is that makes Kent citizens happy to board coaches to / from Central London rather than the train. Surrey have no commuter coach routes that I know of. Why is that ? I'm presuming its social economic issues at play. I think it's more the fact that coaches from North Kent can offer a faster journey to Canary Wharf than the train via the Blackwall Tunnel although that will change when Crossrail opens.
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Post by thesquirrels on Sept 13, 2016 10:50:54 GMT
If the traffic wasn't so bad, a high profile Sapphire style service from Epsom - Stanies / Egham or even Heathrow could be viable, say via Ashstead, Leatherhead, Cobham, Esher, Hersham, Walton, Shepperton, Sunbury, Ashford then either Stanies / Egham or Heathrow. Wipe out the 408/479/555/556 in one go, with some bus priority measures. Maybe Stagecoach could run this and have some sort of tie in with SW Trains with financial incentives. The density of housing in those areas should theoretically provide a decent catchment, but I agree with other posters, it's the image that's the problem. Metrobus in Crawley etc cited above is a classic example of what can achieved if some serious effort is put in. I live in Kent now. And I've often wondered what it is that makes Kent citizens happy to board coaches to / from Central London rather than the train. Surrey have no commuter coach routes that I know of. Why is that ? I'm presuming its social economic issues at play. I think it's more the fact that coaches from North Kent can offer a faster journey to Canary Wharf than the train via the Blackwall Tunnel although that will change when Crossrail opens. A valid point, but I see plenty of people lined up in the City for the Kings Ferry coaches out to Kent of an evening (ironically one of these is in the dimly lit space on Upper Thames St right underneath Cannon Street station) - there is demand there too. It is an attractive, personalised and well run service where their social media team are very good at getting info out re disruption, live coach locations and loadings, etc - it is a tailored service in a way that SouthEastern can't offer. And the road network heading out of London in that direction isn't too bad on a normal day. Crossrail probably will pinch some of the coach traffic from the Island, but as long as Joe Commuter has to alight at Abbey Wood and squeeze onto a 465 to complete the trip into North Kent (I can't wait for that to be a thing - Ealing Broadway eat your heart out) I think the coach will remain an attractive proposition. When c2c emerged from the chrysalis of LTS the X1/etc coach services from Essex gradually withered away - the opening of the JLE improving access to CW played a major part in the decline too. I'm actually starting to think the pendulum could swing back the other way on the A13 corridor. c2c is beginning to creak at the seams and the perception of the service it offers has nosedived as it has tried to accommodate a huge rise in passenger numbers with timetable changes and the ripping out of seats to fit in more standees. There could be merit in starting a coach service into London again - the road network is still there to accommodate it.
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 13, 2016 11:03:02 GMT
I live in Kent now. And I've often wondered what it is that makes Kent citizens happy to board coaches to / from Central London rather than the train. Surrey have no commuter coach routes that I know of. Why is that ? I'm presuming its social economic issues at play. Yes, that : also traffic would probably make any coach services from North Surrey grossly unattractive. I wish I could be as optimistic as thesquirrels about the 515 in particular, it's a route that must lose shedloads of money, and the better bits of the route (Ripley-Guildford, Portsmouth Road - Surbiton - Kingston) are covered by other routes. I just can't see anyone willing to take a punt on such a weak service.
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Post by westhamgeezer on Sept 13, 2016 12:13:32 GMT
To answer Snoggle's earlier question, the TfL routes into Staines do load well. In my opinion, I think that its because parts of north surrey (old middlesex) do not really feel like Surrey, and more like part of Greater London. There are some quite built areas (Stanwell, Ashford, Sunbury) and also places that are not quite so well off as other parts of Surrey. As with almost any other towns in the UK subjective and varies from street to street.
Having said that, I dont know how/why the 290 has a x20 min frequency on Sundays, compared to other routes which carry far more pax (117,203,216) a x30 min frequency would certainly suffice. There is significant trips wholey within Surrey, specifically Staines to Sunbury X and Stanwell. However there is additionally a lot of cross boundary traffic too. If there was more money in the budget, and they werent cross border routes, I could quite easily see a case for the 117 & 203 becoming at least x15 mins.
I think that the problem with the Abellio routes mainly lies with fares and information and frequencies (rather more than the state of the buses, which I agree dont necessarily attract anyone to them). Fares are expensive (to be fair probably not much different to many other operators) but this is a key factor. I think they offer a 5% mobile ticket discount which I barely think is worth bothering with, and not the differential in price that Oyster/Cash on TfL services was a few years ago to encourage people to change.
The Oyster match ticket was a good idea, but *I think* can only be used on parrallel TfL routes in the main. If you are at Sunbury X and wish to travel to Ashford Tesco, based on the frequencies on offer, you are 3 times more likely to catch a 216 (every 20 min) than a 555 (hourly). Additionally, the oyster match ticket doesnt benefit you if you have reached or intend to reach the TfL daily price cap.
The 555/6/7 were run very well under LU in the 90's and I think attracted good passenger numbers. There was a x15 min frequency on the common section which was attractive. As the routes have been split apart and curtailed there is no longer such a good common frequency between routes and from my observations the service and amount of passengers carried has declined steadily through TGM and now Abellio Surrey. I think a number of years ago, popular early morning journeys were cut - only to be reinstated later. The damage however was done, if you needed to get to the Airport for an early shift, you had to make alternative arrangements which generally stuck.
The 458 was only recently increased from x60 mins to x30 (When the 438 was cut between Staines and Shepperton) I believe on a "use it or lose it" understanding. From what I have heard, it was loading well, but what percentage of passengers were "bus pass" passengers I do not know. I think that a route like that is too important to lose altogether, if I was to bet, I'd put my money on Abellio limping on with a hourly service Mon-Sat. Putting aside the Portsmouth Road corridor, it is the only link between Shepperton and Staines.
It doesnt have a cat in hell's chance of happening, but I'd love to see TfL revive the old 218. I bet there is demand locked away there, and I wouldnt be surprised if after a number of years under TfL it could match the 216 in terms of frequency and passenger numbers. I believe that the 216 in the late 90's/early 2000's nearly became a Surrey CC route (Think the Sun Service was a Surrey route under a different number at some point). I dont doubt that had it been a Surrey CC route, it would have withered significantly by now.
Also mentioned is the traffic, which as in London is getting worse - probably due more to increased cars in the county than infrastructure changes as in London. Of note is that it is a lot less attractive to reduce the frequency of a low frequency one as you end up with a non-clockface timetable. If you have increasing traffic on a route at x15 min, you could reduce it to x20 min or add another bus in without too much problem. On an hourly route, you probably have to reduce it to x75 mins or do some clever cross-linking as you havent got the demand or resources to add an extra bus into the PVR.
TfL do leave things to be desired, but the attractive fares, smart ticketing options, clear well branded bus stops, good frequencies and real time information as well as modern buses drive people to their services. Although it doesn't always make sense to operate journeys end to end, I do believe simplified timetables help as well. I am an enthusiast, but some operators timetables leave even me baffled. Without investment, it is extremely hard for operators on the fringes to compete with this. I think it just goes to show how well over a period of time operators like Metrobus and more recently and on a smaller scale Go-Coach and Buses Etc have done to create demand.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2016 18:58:29 GMT
The 216 Sunday service was 511 initially run by WY. Then you had the interesting 572/582 by Westlink. The 582 ran Kingston - Heathrow , which ironically now could be an alternative to the 555 between Sunbury Village & Heathrow !!
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Post by vjaska on Sept 23, 2016 0:19:40 GMT
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Post by snowman on Oct 31, 2016 11:26:07 GMT
Abellio Surrey articleIt appears Abellio Surrey wanted out of the Surrey routes mid year, but have been paid to keep them until December Also mentions 7 other companies in negociations
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Post by Nathan on Oct 31, 2016 14:51:07 GMT
Abellio Surrey articleIt appears Abellio Surrey wanted out of the Surrey routes mid year, but have been paid to keep them until December Also mentions 7 other companies in negociations "Surrey is currently in talks with seven companies to take over the remaining nine months of the contract." Personally, I think this might be a great time for RATP to expand their horizon. They seem to be doing well with their commercial fleet, and okay with their London operations.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 31, 2016 15:57:18 GMT
"Surrey is currently in talks with seven companies to take over the remaining nine months of the contract." Personally, I think this might be a great time for RATP to expand their horizon. They seem to be doing well with their commercial fleet, and okay with their London operations. Unless RATP can compete at rock bottom wages and has some spare buses it's doubtful it could undercut any independents who might decide to bid for whatever work SCC put out on contract. Thinking a little more about what is being cut it looks a bit like a pre-emptive move by Abellio to get out of cross border work that might get wrapped up in ULEZ expansion. We're a few years away from implementation but it must be a factor on the routes into Heathrow and Kingston. If SCC are struggling with their budgets they're very unlikely to be able to fund new or modified vehicles just for a short hop across the boundary in to Greater London. So that's another thing to be concerned about with the ULEZ plans unless TfL carves out the corridors that commercial cross boundary routes follow. Uxbridge must be another possible "danger zone" for a loss of such services.
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Post by snowman on Oct 31, 2016 16:33:20 GMT
"Surrey is currently in talks with seven companies to take over the remaining nine months of the contract." Personally, I think this might be a great time for RATP to expand their horizon. They seem to be doing well with their commercial fleet, and okay with their London operations. Unless RATP can compete at rock bottom wages and has some spare buses it's doubtful it could undercut any independents who might decide to bid for whatever work SCC put out on contract. Thinking a little more about what is being cut it looks a bit like a pre-emptive move by Abellio to get out of cross border work that might get wrapped up in ULEZ expansion. We're a few years away from implementation but it must be a factor on the routes into Heathrow and Kingston. If SCC are struggling with their budgets they're very unlikely to be able to fund new or modified vehicles just for a short hop across the boundary in to Greater London. So that's another thing to be concerned about with the ULEZ plans unless TfL carves out the corridors that commercial cross boundary routes follow. Uxbridge must be another possible "danger zone" for a loss of such services. Don't think RAPT has any spare single deckers (many routes in Surrey have low bridges). However needing to source buses might be the case for many of the potential 7 operators. If so isnt going to make much financial sense for 9 month contract.
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Post by thesquirrels on Oct 31, 2016 19:05:52 GMT
Abellio Surrey articleIt appears Abellio Surrey wanted out of the Surrey routes mid year, but have been paid to keep them until December Also mentions 7 other companies in negociations "Abellio came to us in the middle of this year and said they couldn’t afford the services to continue because they were mismanaging, that’s the blatant truth of it." A barbed but telling comment from the County Council member for transport. Mismanagement by Abellio's admission or SCC's perception?
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Post by paulo on Oct 31, 2016 19:18:54 GMT
Abellio Surrey articleIt appears Abellio Surrey wanted out of the Surrey routes mid year, but have been paid to keep them until December Also mentions 7 other companies in negociations "Abellio came to us in the middle of this year and said they couldn’t afford the services to continue because they were mismanaging, that’s the blatant truth of it." A barbed but telling comment from the County Council member for transport. Mismanagement by Abellio's admission or SCC's perception? Abellio wanted to make room for the 427 to run from Byfleet is the real reasoning...... No seriously, I think Abellio have given it a good go in Surrey but it's pretty clear that the parent company is under pressure and that will inevitably lead to cuts further down the line. Significant investment was made in upgrading the ex route 100 pointers which include wifi, but it's perhaps a bit too leafy for surreyites to use the bus at any significant volume. I would expect the network to be broken up. The 555/556/557 perhaps to London United as in a previous life.
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Post by tony4387 on Oct 31, 2016 21:51:33 GMT
Although I think to be fair which company or companies take on the remains contracts for the next nine months are going to struggle in Surrey
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